|
|
Posts: 1141
Location: NorthCentral WI | We all know you should figure 8 on every cast but for how long is the question? I fish mainly stained water lakes and during the year it can be difficult to even see a follow. Many times you will just see a quick flash of its side once it nears the boat. So, when I know I've had a follow but only caught a glimpse of it, should I do 10, 20, 40 figure 8s? What is the longest you've done the 8 before the fish came back to eat?
I consider myself a novice, only a few years into the sport and I have NOT caught a fish in the 8 yet despite a couple of very good opportunities.
One fish last year followed in my showgirl and disappeared under the boat. After around 30 figure 8s she came back out, took a swipe and missed, then bolted away.
A different day last year on a very stained lake I didn't see the fish following and she ate on the 2nd turn unexpectedly. Locked down drag snapped my line after one headshake because I wasn't thumbing it. I felt horrible for days especially because it was a big fish and all I could see was bucher mag tinsel hanging from her mouth.
BTW: I have since turned down my drag so some line can be taken and really practiced engaging the spool at the start of the 8. With abus it is a real pain the engage with pressure on like a dbl 10. Has not become total habit for me yet though.
Edited by MartinTD 3/22/2011 4:21 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 1887
Location: syracuse indiana | well i fig 8 on every cast at least 3 times now if im in deeper water it will be more, these fish can see and feel the bait from a far distance and cruse up and check it out . and i have seen fellow fisherman and clients blow it by not doing enough. they do one or 2 quick ones or even a L and pitch another cast out then look down and there is the fish. so i make it a point to teach everyone to do enough fig 8's it will better your odd's doing it |
|
| |
|
Posts: 717
Location: Grand Rapids, MI | How long should you figure 8? As long as the fish is there, DON'T STOP!! LOL.
Ok, all kidding aside, we've had days where you wouldn't even see a fish until 2 full figure 8's. Even in 4' of clarity, the fish was following somewhere where we couldn't see. In the middle of the 2nd figure 8, a fish would show up and eat! Weird. Sometimes, you can see them go under the boat vs back where they came from. We've then snapped on something else and just started F-8ing that. The fish would come right out from under you. Now, there are days where I'm power fishing, and will only do an L-turn. If there's no fish hot on it, it's on to the next cast. These are situations when I don't have a lot of time, but the weather is perfect, and I'm just trying to find active fish. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1141
Location: NorthCentral WI | That makes sense. There's got to be guys that have say; had a big fish follow in and figure 8ed for 2-3 minutes, or 60 figure 8s before it came backor something. No? |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2361
| Martin, I hope you haven't been figure 8ing after each cast for years.
|
|
| |
|
Location: SE Wisconsin | I would get a sore back and plain ol' burnt out if I did full circles or 8's, whatever you want, after every cast, so I tend to go at it hard for the first while but then slink into the lazy L's. That said, for the most part I draw an L at the boat and fire away, but there ARE times when something just feels fishy and I'll find myself putting more into it. On darker water I give it a couple solid 8's before casting again, so more effort and better sleep at night.
When I see a fish coming, it's a learned technique, but it's something I've gradually or instinctually adapted to and that is pressing the thumbar with my thumb joint and pressing the pad of my thumb on the line to prepare for action. Once I hook up on the eight, it's simple to thumb out a little line pending the circumstances and when she's out far enough to have time to get the net or whatever the circumstance calls for, I can click the reel and handle business..
While I'd say 75% of my hook-ups on the 8 happen in the first turn or two, I don't give up until I'm out of breath in most instances.. I had a buddy figure 8 so long after a follow I thought he was just having fun with it after a while... Suddenly, "FISH ON!!". That was just crazy but I had to hand it to him.
Another time, my other buddies father who's aged a bit and can't keep up with the constant flinging of big baits, decided to figure eight for a while as a means to keep his bait wet while he rested. My bud had a follow from a mid-40 and the fish flared off and gave his dad not only his first musky, but his first legal, first figure 8 fish and biggest catch-to-date.
Edited by Sam Ubl 3/22/2011 5:12 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 1030
Location: APPLETON, WI | I do it religiously after every cast and I do it at least (3) times. I don't believe there's any hard /fast rule and I'm no veteran by a long shot. I've yet to catch a fish on the 8, but I'd kick myself if I blew that opportunity. I did have an aggressive follow last year on a TopRaider and at boatside, I figure-8'd for what seemed like several minutes until I'm certain the fish was either gone or simply lost interest. *shrug*
I've not seen any videos of anyone figure-8'ing for several minutes and then finally hooking up a fish... it does seem that most fish seem to hit violently on the 1st or 2nd turn... not on the 14th or 15th. I guess that's why I picked the number 3 for me. I figure 8 a total of (3) times and then it's back into the cast.
Kinda cool to see how everyone else does it though.  |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1141
Location: NorthCentral WI | Well, of course not. I'm plain too lazy for that. I usually at least do an L turn or one circle though.
Question is more referring to a following fish, or like I said on stained water I have just seen a flash as the fish darts to the side and out of visibility. You know the fish has to be close yet most of the time. ? Give it 3 figure 8s and keep chuckin or what?
I remember seeing a video a while back where I think a fish had lost interest in the 8 yet it was close so he was slapping the water with his bucktail to attract it. F'd up!
Edited by MartinTD 3/22/2011 5:29 PM
|
|
| |
|
| it would be tough for me in a dark water or nightfishing situation to cast again without doing at least 5 figure 8s. yeah it slows you down and it's physically tough to do all the time but looking back at the fish caught the past couple seasons that i never saw (i usually fish at night) most of them hit on the 3rd full loop and a good number of them ate on the 4th or 5th. during the day i'll keep at it until i'm confident the fish is gone. lots of times if you get one of those fish that requires dozens of 8s before it eats it'll show itself a few time during the process to let you know it's still there. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 547
Location: Oshkosh | I think this is what your talking about Martin.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O-UXmO1fME
Peter
|
|
| |
|
| That vid makes me crazy!!!! Watch those figure 8's....snore! That fish would have eaten a proper f8 every time in the first two turns. Ask yourself as you watch that vid: "Is that how a fleeing bait fish would move?" There were no triggering aspects whatsoever! The answer to your question is about "reading fish," and that can only come from experience. IMO it's less about "how long?" and more about "how well?" you f8. Think about this vid. IMO it demonstrates the mindset of good f8ing better....the simply fishing vid is what not to do. Watch as the activity becomes more and more frenzied as the chase goes on! I always tell my clients: The fish will do what your bait does. If you slow down, the fish will slow down; If you speed up, so will the fish. If your f8 is boring the fish will reflect that attitude!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHWiteoP3DU |
|
| |
|
Location: SE Wisconsin | MartinTD - 3/22/2011 5:21 PM Well, of course not. I'm plain too lazy for that. I usually at least do an L turn or one circle though. Question is more referring to a following fish, or like I said on stained water I have just seen a flash as the fish darts to the side and out of visibility. You know the fish has to be close yet most of the time. ? Give it 3 figure 8s and keep chuckin or what? I remember seeing a video a while back where I think a fish had lost interest in the 8 yet it was close so he was slapping the water with his bucktail to attract it. F'd up! Flash offs don't always mean the fish is gone, as a lot of times they will flash off in a hurry but turn back around and stop to watch. When you see a fish follow your bait, you always give it its dues.. Meaning, you don't get follows after every cast, so when it happens, treat even flash offs like it's your best shot because it just may be. Whether you do an L turn or give three full revolutions on the blind 8's, treat a follow, even a flash off, like your trip depends on it. If nothing happens and the fish doesn't reappear after a while, throw right back to where she came from and/or whatever direction she went and often times you may be able to get her attention again. As a last resort, remember the spot and return for another chance later on. As for how long to blindly figure 8 after a follow and not seeing the fish return, well, that's up to you... Every instance is different and is more of an innate instinct IMO. If I don't see the fish return after a little while, sometimes I get the itch to fire it back to see if she'll come up again. It's up to you my friend.
Edited by Sam Ubl 3/22/2011 11:00 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 112
Location: Nielsen's Fly-In Lodge, on Rowan Lake | you know the term fig 8 is just a term in all my years i have learned that the bigger the fish the bigger the circle slow up some on the corners and pic up the speed in the stright away small fish the 8 is ok but BIG fish cant make the turn and they are looking for it then it comes back around again and they pick it up.its lick trying to turn a semi truck around in a mcdonalds parking lot they cant make the turn you must give them room to manuver this is just what i have seen over the years |
|
| |
|
Posts: 697
Location: Minnetonka | I usually stop figure 8ing when the fish bites. 
I'll just piggy back on what Ben said, and add that if there's one piece of advice I give figure 8 newbs it's "Make a good first move". Most times, when a fish wants to eat on the figure 8 and doesn't, the angler could have done a better job at making their L-turn transition and initial, sweeping "high-and-outside" to trigger the fish right away. Or they just plain flinched and spooked the fish... expecting the follow every time is another big advantage you can give yourself to catching 'em on the figure 8. IMO the first impression is paramount in mastering the 8.
Edited by Hammskie 3/23/2011 12:23 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 1030
Location: APPLETON, WI | Awesome points, everyone!
I think a lot of us learn as newbies that regardless of whether or not you actually see a flash, so to speak... we should still be going right into a figure-8 after each and every cast. A lot of time if we're fishing dark, stained water or even deeper water - we may not necessarily have the ability to spot or see a follower at any given moment. I think that's why it was embedded in my mind as I began to truly attempt to figure-8 at least (3) times after each and every cast.
But again, the cool part is everyone kind of does their own thing and adds their own personal flair to this part of musky fishing. I'm not certain if there's any right or wrong way or exact science... what works for you during any given situation, may not work so well for someone else.
...and that's musky fishing. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 682
Location: Sycamore, IL | If you are getting alot of "flashes" at the boat, try going as deep as you can with your figure8...this seems to work when the fish are pressured or spooky. Good luck!
Matt |
|
| |
|
Posts: 112
Location: Nielsen's Fly-In Lodge, on Rowan Lake | psys you are absolutly right THAT IS MUSKIE FISHIN |
|
| |
|
|
While a figure 8 or L turn is the way to finish every cast, doing multiple 8's after each cast may put an occasional extra fish in the boat at the cost of fish you can catch by making more casts per hour.
After dark 2 full circles (I never 8, always oval) is worth the time to do.
In daylight I'd bet the house you will catch more fish by getting your lure back out there vs. making multiple 8's at the boat. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 906
Location: Warroad, Mn | I agree 100% with guest! I've fished muskies on the dark waters of the LOTWs for 45 years and have never caught a muskie on a blind figure-8. I've guided for around 30 years on the LOTWs and have lots of clients who think they should blind figure-8 three or four times after every cast and so far none of them have ever caught a fish on a blind figure-8. I watch them do this for a half a day and then ask them how many fish they've caught doing this and the answer is almost always "NONE". As far as I'm concerned it's one of the biggest waste of time there is in muskie fishing. If you do a well executed "L" and watch your lure for fish during the retrieve and at the boat and cast again, you well catch more fish than stirring the water at the boat with out seeing a muskie follow. I suppose the exception would be night fishing when you can't see your lure. I've fished with lots of very good fishermen many times, Pete Maina, Doug Stange, Dick Pearson, Mark Windels, Jack Burns, Chad Cain, Crash Mullins, Doc Cotton, Roger Halverson and lots of other very good muskie fisherman and there's not one of them who does a blind figure-8. However, we do catch lots of fish on figure-8's. I'll bet that I have personally caught 300-400 fish on a figure-8, and in the boat I'll bet it's pushing the 1,000 mark (remember this is the LOTWs, and 45 years, at 100 days plus/year). What we do is to watch for follows. If you are watching and know what to look for you will see most of the fish that are catchable (some aren't). It's also possible at times to turn a relatively neutral fish into a biter with a well executed figure-8 (or zero). Long rods help. Don't give up early, I've caught lots of fish after a long time of 8's. Sometimes they go away but not too far, and they came back again. If you do it a lot you'll be amazed at what they do! Learn how to figure-8, as it'll put lots of fish in the boat. Learn how to spot a fish that's following as that's the key. But don't do numerous figure-8s after every cast, because you read it somewhere! Just my personal opinion!!!! Doug Johnson
Edited by dougj 3/23/2011 6:41 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 2361
| Don Pursch - 3/23/2011 11:02 AM
you know the term fig 8 is just a term in all my years i have learned that the bigger the fish the bigger the circle slow up some on the corners and pic up the speed in the stright away small fish the 8 is ok but BIG fish cant make the turn and they are looking for it then it comes back around again and they pick it up.its lick trying to turn a semi truck around in a mcdonalds parking lot they cant make the turn you must give them room to manuver this is just what i have seen over the years
Which part of a circle are "corners" and "the straight away", Don? |
|
| |
|
Location: Contrarian Island | Doug J wrote:
Location: Warroad, Mn I agree 100% with guest!
I've fished muskies on the dark waters of the LOTWs for 45 years and have never caught a muskie on a blind figure-8. I've guided for around 30 years on the LOTWs and have lots of clients who think they should blind figure-8 three or four times after every cast and so far none of them have ever caught a fish on a blind figure-8. I watch them do this for a half a day and then ask them how many fish they've caught doing this and the answer is almost always "NONE". As far as I'm concerned it's one of the biggest waste of time there is in muskie fishing. If you do a well executed "L" and watch your lure for fish during the retrieve and at the boat and cast again, you well catch more fish than stirring the water at the boat with out seeing a muskie follow. I suppose the exception would be night fishing when you can't see your lure.
I've fished with lots of very good fishermen many times, Pete Maina, Doug Stange, Dick Pearson, Mark Windels, Jack Burns, Chad Cain, Crash Mullins, Doc Cotton, Roger Halverson and lots of other very good muskie fisherman and there's not one of them who does a blind figure-8.
However, we do catch lots of fish on figure-8's. I'll bet that I have personally caught 300-400 fish on a figure-8, and in the boat I'll bet it's pushing the 1,000 mark (remember this is the LOTWs, and 45 years, at 100 days plus/year). What we do is to watch for follows. If you are watching and know what to look for you will see most of the fish that are catchable (some aren't). It's also possible at times to turn a relatively neutral fish into a biter with a well executed figure-8 (or zero). Long rods help. Don't give up early, I've caught lots of fish after a long time of 8's. Sometimes they go away but not too far, and they came back again. If you do it a lot you'll be amazed at what they do!
Learn how to figure-8, as it'll put lots of fish in the boat. Learn how to spot a fish that's following as that's the key. But don't do numerous figure-8s after every cast, because you read it somewhere!
Just my personal opinion!!!!
Doug Johnson"
I'm actually shocked to read that actually...we catch and get hits from quite a few fish in the 8 per year that I had NO clue were there, and I know what to watch for......and I'm talking during the day....I guess I fish with lots of good / great fishermen too who have caught fish that came out of nowhere and hit ...maybe I'm misreading your post? In fact I've had some 50s in the boat by me and others that pounced on the lure from below the boat and there was zero chance anybody knew they were there...and had others hit (one still haunts my buddy DanO) that again, came out of nowhere and hit on the 8... so to say that fish aren't caught on blind 8s to me is crazy...if water clarity is 3" how can you know what is a foot below the bait? or 2 feet behind it...? you can't....simple as that..do I do a full figure 8 on each cast, no, but have had enough fish hit out of nowhere to know there are times and water clarity I do a figure 8 on each cast ...is it worth doing 2 or 3 on each cast ..no, but fish are caught on the 1st 8 that were "blind" and we didn't know were there... some lakes it seems they pounce out of nowhere at times and I know for a fact fish will follow lures some distance below the bait, waiting for the first move to pounce...again, maybe I'm misreading Dougs post but to say all those guys haven't had a fish hit on a figure 8 they didn't know was there? ! ? ! seems impossible.
has happened quite a bit in my boat alone...
Edited by BNelson 3/23/2011 8:15 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 1030
Location: APPLETON, WI | BNelson - 3/23/2011 7:22 PM I'm actually shocked to read that actually...we catch and get hits from quite a few fish in the 8 per year that I had NO clue were there, and I know what to watch for......and I'm talking during the day....I guess I fish with lots of good / great fishermen too who have caught fish that came out of nowhere and hit ...maybe I'm misreading your post? In fact I've had some 50s in the boat by me and others that pounced on the lure from below the boat and there was zero chance anybody knew they were there...and had others hit (one still haunts my buddy DanO) that again, came out of nowhere and hit on the 8... so to say that fish aren't caught on blind 8s to me is crazy...do I do a full figure 8 on each cast, no, but have had enough fish hit out of nowhere to know there are times and water clarity I do a figure 8 on each cast ...some lakes it seems they pounce out of nowhere and I know for a fact fish will follow lures some distance below the bait, waiting for the first move to pounce...again, maybe I'm misreading Dougs post but to say all those guys haven't had a fish hit on a figure 8 they didn't know was there? ! ? ! seems impossible. has happened quite a bit in my boat alone... I agree. I was fairly shocked to read it, as well. That's why I don't believe there are any true right or wrong answers. Everyone has their own opinions and everyone has their own way of executing this part of musky fishing. I've fished with a few great fishermen and 2 out of 3 that I've had the pleasure of fishing with figure-8 after each and every cast. Period. Perhaps to some it may be a chronic waste of time, but they HAVE caught fish on the 8. And I know for a fact it isn't because of any one specific fish they thought was following their bait. You can't possibly be scanning the water and the depths and have the ability to know where every fish is at every given point in time... so, if you can't see a fish, then there must not be one there? False. Again, it's interesting to me to read everyone's viewpoints. I still consider myself a newcomer to the sport/hobby of musky fishing. I think gathering as much information as you can and then applying them to your own techniques is what makes everyone a musky fisherman. 
Edited by PSYS 3/23/2011 8:09 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 108
| BNelson catches them just letting his bucktail hang in the water vertically while talking to people too! Sometimes when he doesn't get a follow he will try that stealthy move and be rewarded!
I think you have to read the fish and what they are doing and adjust your presentation to the fish activity. If you are having fish pop up late like when you are in mid-cast on your next cast, you better start figure 8ing after each of your casts. If you don't think that is a good idea...that is OK too... there are guys like me that will come in behind you and catch them.
Also, if you are on a spot where you really think there should be a musky, or you are going back to one you raised earlier...it is a really good idea to do a blind figure 8 even if you don't spot the fish following.
I agree to do them after every cast is a waste of time and I think a good "L' turn is a must..but there is also a time when I think you want to be sure you give that fish a little extra time to react to your presentation.
I think Infishermen did a show with a camera down and were shocked to learn how many fish came in that they didn't see with thier polarized glasses. Makes one ponder a bit...they are down there more than we realize.
Brett Waldera
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 32885
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Just an opinion..
I believe it's 'wet line time' over the long haul coupled with boat position/fish location/structural elements fished, etc.
If one 'blind' figure 8s once after every cast, the lure is in the water about 6 seconds at boatside. 12 seconds on two. That's a quarter to half a cast depending on the presentation and if the boat isn't moving fast, the bait spends more time in that area than any other. Spend that time with the lure in the water on a retrieve, your average may do what Doug suggests. Spend that time with your lure doing eights, and your average may do what Bn suggests.
How far can you cast? How far away can a muskie sense a presentation? How fast can a muskie swim? Figure eights don't only catch fish that are boatside. Any serious Ice angler who fishes artificials and uses a camera (especially a long range prototype) for Pike can tell you Esox will charge in from yards off in a blur and smoke a presentation that is pretty stationary in 'orbit'. A case could be made that ALL you need to do is figure 8 and you will catch fish if your rig is in the right place.
I'm with Doug on this one, but that's me. |
|
| |
|
|
I think what DJ was meaning is that doing multiple blind figure 8's isn't productive.
Doing 3 8's after every cast? At night, maybe.
During the day how many of us have every caught a fish on the 3rd 8 without seeing the fish?
I'm sure that DJ and people he knows have had fish hit on the 8 that they didn't see at the end of the cast, but they don't keep going and going if it doesn't happen after one round.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 906
Location: Warroad, Mn | Well, I figured that would get a few replies! No BN you're not reading my reply wrong! I sort of supect that the lakes that you are fishing will make a lots of difference. Almost all the fish we get on the LOTWs are coming off structure from a shoreline. I've never had a fish out of open water (I've tried) On the LOTWs (and all the other Ontario lakes I've fished, many more) you'll see the fish that you'll catch on an eight. Like I've stated I've had many guys do blind figure-8's and no one has ever caught a fish (maybe a few, but not many, 30 years guiding and 100's of clients). I can think of a couple, but not enough to worry about. We've caught a good number of 50"fish on figure-8's but only after we've seen them following. We've caught many a fish on the "L", but you if you are watching you can see the fish coming. Just because there's a lots of folks who think it pays to do an extensive blind figure-8 there must be people who catch some. But I'll bet that if you could figure out a way to measure fishing success. I.E. Catch/unit/effort (how long does it take to catch a fish), I'll bet that the folks who do a "L" and that make another cast to another spot rather than stirring the water with a figure-8 would be far ahead. I think there's been too much emphasis put on the blind figure-8 at boat side. Your are much better off making another cast to a new location than stirring the water at boat side! Personal opinion!!!! Doug Johnson |
|
| |
|
| DougJ, off topic but do you believe in feeding windows or lure color making a difference? |
|
| |
|
Posts: 8777
| Thought about this a lot as I was reading this thread. Even I couldn't come up with a good answer!
I read Doug's post, and I thought "what?? My biggest fish was one I didn't even see until I was in the middle of a figure 8!" Then I remembered I was looking the other way and B.S.-ing in with the guys I was fishing with. The I thought about the fish I've missed by just doing an L instead of being relentless about my figure 8's. Maybe I just didn't see them when I should have?
How long do I figure 8?? It depends on if I see a fish. It's like asking someone how long they pee.
I think the point Doug J and Steve W are trying to make is that you can spend a lot of time and energy doing figure 8's, and catch fish you otherwise might not have. But you probably will be better served in the long run throwing that next cast instead.
Reminds me of a joke about an old bull... |
|
| |
|
| Interesting to read the differing thoughts on this....
While a good majority of fish caught in the 8 are seen before the figure 8 maneuvers take place, I firmly believe that there are fish we dont see following. Those fish we dont see can make or break a day on the water or a long trip.
Maybe I'm reading some of the posts incorrectly, but I think doing an 8 or at least a good solid 'L" turn each cast, acting and thinking that a fish is there will surely result in more fish in the net for you. A fish does not need to be behind your bait in order to strike it, they come from all directions. My first 50, came out of BNelsons boat and was on a 'blind' figure 8. It was one of the coolest muskie strikes Ive ever witnessed. I had no idea a fish was there, but reacting and executing like a fish was there resulted in a fish in the bag.
Who knows, just my opinion.
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 133
Location: Duluth, MN | I fish alot of stained water. When you have an average chop to no chop I always figure 8 two times. When there are big waves stay with the figure 8 four to six times and watch for the fish coming back from under the boat. I have had 4 to 5 fish days with everyone of the fish coming back from under the boat and never have seen fish.
Edited by yooper 3/24/2011 1:37 AM
|
|
| |
