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Posts: 623
Location: Bloomington, MN | This is from the 2010 WDNR Fishing Regulations
“Position fishing”
is fishing from a boat where the fishing line extends vertically into the water
while the boat is maneuvered (forwards or backwards) by a motor used to position or
maintain the position of the boat over underwater structure. Position fishing is allowed
statewide in all waters.
Thought I would bring it up since I'm going to be doing this for the first time in 20 years next weekend, and this seems to always be a topic at this time of year. I take it that if I'm drifting with the wind and using a trolling motor to keep the boat on a breakline and the suckers are under a float I should be legal. Any thoughts would be appreciated. |
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| I talked to a local warden in the Rhinelandere area this weekend and asked the same question, his response was that if you are drifting with the wind and using the trolling motor to kick the boat back on the edge of structure he would not ticket you for trolling, if you are using your trolling motor and just going around the lake and going against the wind then you would be trolling and he would ticket you.
Dan M |
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Posts: 8788
| It's all up to the discretion of the warden. If what you are doing gives the warden the impression you are deliberately trying to circumvent the trolling ban? You're getting a ticket. I had a warden explain it this way:
"If you're running the trolling motor wide open on a calm day and your suckers are trailing along behind the boat? You're trolling. If the wind is blowing you across the lake? You're drifting, which is legal." |
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Posts: 20227
Location: oswego, il | I had a warden in vilas tell me if you have a sucker in the water and your trolling motor is on for any reason, your getting a ticket.
The rule needs to be defined. You can have your trolling motor on constant with a sucker in the water in kenosha county and not worry about a ticket. |
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| I was out on the water Sunday and in returning to my cottage, I saw three folks in a boat dragging suckers on two rods, moving right along using the troller motor continually. They were also casting, but I think from what I read in the other posts that they might have been in trouble if a warden had seen it. |
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Posts: 580
| ToddM - 10/4/2010 7:17 PM
I had a warden in vilas tell me if you have a sucker in the water and your trolling motor is on for any reason, your getting a ticket.
I kind of hope I cross paths with this warden just for the sake of contesting this ridiculous interpretation of ridiculously vague and ambiguously-written regulation...
To respond to the original question, the way that I read the reg is that there is one key part to the definition: line has to be vertical into the water. The rest of the definition can be interpreted in multiple ways and could be used to describe either trolling or "position fishing" depending upon how you read it. But if your line is vertical, you can't be trolling, so that's what I think is most important.
Fact is, you can be "positioning" the boat with the aid of the trolling motor, and you can be casting as well. In order to "position" or "maneuver" the boat, it is a given that you will have to be in forward motion. So why isn't it "trolling" when the boat is in forward motion? Or, what truly differentiates "trolling" from "position fishing"? Again, my interpretation is that it's the verticality of the line into the water. Forward motion with trailing line/bait behind the boat: trolling.
Physically, it is nearly impossible for a boat to be in motion while your line is perfectly vertical. But as long as the line is vertical the majority of the time, and the boat is being moved forward in short bursts (rather than in an uninterrupted pattern), I think it's "position fishing" rather than trolling. |
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| this is the dumbest thing i have ever read. there is a HUGE difference between trolling and moving around a lake with the trolling motor and dragging suckers. youre telling me you will get ticketed for doing this up north? tell me how this is not ignorant. |
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| what i meant was using the trolling motor while you cast AND drag suckers. |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | That's an easy one. No trolling allowed up here, so you can't drag suckers around the lake...that's trolling. Drift and position the boat, you won't get a ticket. Drag the suckers around the lake, you will. |
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Posts: 383
Location: SE Wisc and Vilas County | just keep your suckers vertical and you will be fine, no need to have them way behind the boat. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | I agree w/ Matt, I keep my suckers vertical and have yet to come across a warden..it's a dumb rule that is written poorly, huge difference between using your motor to position your boat and cast to structure with suckers straight down and flat out trolling...big difference...I'll keep doing it the way I've done it up there for the last 15 yrs and will hire Matt as my attorney should I get a ticket! 
Edited by BNelson 10/6/2010 9:47 PM
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Posts: 20227
Location: oswego, il | The vertical thing is crazy too. The wind moves the boat and I am "positioning" with my trolling motor and my lines are not not vertical. Not legal but if I say add another 2 oz of lead so that doesn't happen, then I am legal? You could ask a dozen questions about where "positioning" ends and "trolling" begins and it's completely discretionary and totally undefined. |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | We go through this every fall.
It's intent, basically, the warden will look to as far as interpretation goes. If you are obviously pulling your suckers around you will get a ticket. If a warden gives you a ticket and you are NOT pulling your suckers around and are actually controlled drift position fishing, you will win in court. Precedent has already been set.
As far as I can tell, no one has ever posted here about actually getting a ticket for position fishing with suckers. |
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Posts: 614
Location: Michigan | Clark A - 10/4/2010 9:26 AM
This is from the 2010 WDNR Fishing Regulations
“Position fishing”
is fishing from a boat where the fishing line extends vertically into the water
while the boat is maneuvered (forwards or backwards) by a motor used to position or
maintain the position of the boat over underwater structure. Position fishing is allowed
statewide in all waters.
Sounds like the rule is perfectly made for walleye fishermen who are vertically jigging and use the motor to stay right on top of a sunken hump. Definitely needs some clarification for the musky guys. I am just glad I fish in Michigan and don't need to worry about any of that. |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | It isn't complicated at all. If you pull the suckers around, you are breaking a no trolling law. The law has been reaffirmed by a couple Conservation Congress votes over the years. It was once changed to allow backtrolling, but when the muskie guys started backtrolling 9 boards, changed back to NO trolling...the majority apparently want this traditional approach to remain in force up here.
You may control a drift or hold position over structure against the wind, adjusting back and forth, but you can't troll.
That's the law.
It's been voted on several times up here, and the muskie and walleye guys who wanted to troll many N WI waters lost that vote, big time.
At least we won the larger size limit issues for the most part. |
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Posts: 580
| The problem with the reg, as written, is that it defines "position fishing" to include "maneuvering" with a motor to "position" OR "maintain a position". Note the key word: "OR".
To "maneuver", obviously a motor of some sort has to be "on"...which implies that your boat can be moving forward (or backward). But, when and if the boat is moving forward (or backward), your suckers will be "pulled around" or "dragged" and therefore not on a completely vertical line....which, as you say Steve, seems to be "trolling" and not legal...yet, the position fishing definition seems to allow it....hence, the ambiguity.
Controlling a drift in the wind with short bursts of a motor, or holding position against wind with use of a motor would seem to clearly be "positioning" rather than "trolling", but what if there isn't any wind that would necessitate a controlled drift? Do you have to pull your suckers up just to move forward 5-10' along a breakline while casting so that the suckers aren't "dragged" or "pulled around" for any period of time? Or, isn't that really just "maneuvering" the boat for purposes of "positioning" over underwater structure (which you are casting to), which seems to be legal by definition?
Again, like I said above, I think as long as the lines are vertical the majority of the time, and you are "maneuvering" forward via short bursts of the trolling motor, I think you are fine. And, my guess is that most wardens are pretty sensible about this, and I haven't heard of anyone actually getting a ticket. But every now and again I hear second-hand comments such as the one above where a warden says that "if your suckers are down and your trolling motor is on, you're getting a ticket...", which makes me scratch my head.
Anyways, sorry. Don't mean to go on and on. But, I really don't like how the reg is written, and I don't think it's accurate to say that it isn't complicated...more to the point, personally, I think the actual problem is the fact that there is a "no trolling" rule in the first place, from which has spawned this silly reg. But, that's just my own opinion.
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Posts: 2361
| No wind. Fishing with suckers. I don't see any way that use of the trolling motor could be considered anything other than trolling. The electric trolling motor is clearly propelling the suckers. Trolling. Simple stuff.
I would expect it is an easy case to make in court.
You can't propell a sucker with the trolling motor against the wind, or on a windless day. Vertical or strung 100 feet behind the boat=trolling.
They make oars. |
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| SO if you don't have oar locks in your boat or your boat is too large to reasonably use a paddle you can't fish with suckers on a calm day unless you want to fish one exact spot , pull in the suckers, move to another spot,drop the suckers. Meanwhile the $5-7 suckers die from being hauled in and out of the water multiple times. Does that make a lot of sense?? I use short bursts on my trolling motor, let the suckers swim around, another burst, suckers swim. This is considered trolling? compac |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Yes.
What many of you are missing completely is the fact we WERE able to backtroll a few years ago, and the DNR was just fine with that. A group of vocal, very active anglers reintroduced the trolling ban and the sportsmen and women...NOT the DNR, passed it and it was put back in to law.
The majority of the anglers up here want a no trolling atmosphere. Democracy at it's finest.
I'm not one of them. But, I'm fine with it because that's how things are supposed to work in the good old USA. |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | Terrible, ridiculous law.
But, after all, it is Wisconsin. Go string your single hook rigs along a half-mile of shoreline and don’t worry about a thing.
Just please, by God, don’t move a sucker with an electric motor.
JS |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | You should have voted to keep back trolling legal when we needed that vote. If you did, OK, but most of the people bitching about this have no clue what actually occured to get this clarified to the point is is now. Blame the other fishermen in WI, not the Warden or DNR. They are simply enforcing a law the majority wants. |
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Posts: 2361
| Guest - 10/7/2010 6:04 PM
SO if you don't have oar locks in your boat or your boat is too large to reasonably use a paddle you can't fish with suckers on a calm day unless you want to fish one exact spot , pull in the suckers, move to another spot,drop the suckers. Meanwhile the $5-7 suckers die from being hauled in and out of the water multiple times. Does that make a lot of sense?? I use short bursts on my trolling motor, let the suckers swim around, another burst, suckers swim. This is considered trolling? compac
I'd write the ticket. That's what it is. No one makes anybody USE suckers, nor do they make anybody use them where it is illegal to troll. Nor does anyone make you buy them on a calm day, nor do they make you fish out of a big boat, and besides, on a calm day you can probably row a big boat around.
An awful lot of people seem to wander around this site wanting some justification for illegal and unethical behaviour. The rules aren't that difficult to understand. |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | Maybe my memory doesn’t serve me right, but wasn’t position fishing (backtrolling ban) an implemented DNR law? I don’t remember a vote on it (Vilas/Oneida). I could be wrong. Doesn’t matter, if there was a vote, or would be a vote, it would get shot down. But higher size limits are also routinely voted down (I do remember those landslide votes). Nice system we have up here, pretty cool having our laws decided by such brainiacs.
I know that if I see a boat with guys working a weedline with an electric motor, casting while a sucker hangs off the side of the boat those sobs are trolling and could really damage our fishery.
Bottom line, it is the law. Don’t let your motor move the bait/lure.
JS |
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| Cmon.... I dont live in Wisconsin but this law is rediculous.
I agree with J.Sloan and that there are some real rocket scientists voting and making fish laws there. The position fishing law makes no sense to me or many of the guys I fish with. Matter of fact, many of the fish and game laws in the Wisconsin northwoods make zero to no sense to me.
Most of the people I fish with from Wisconsin feel that SOME of the laws are brainless.
In my opinion there is definately room for improvement. |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | J S, I agree, it's a goofy law, but it's what is wanted by the majority. I just don't thnk trolling of any sort is a problem, but many many do including a number of regulars here.
Yeah, pressure from the traditionalists and the CC had everything to do with the change back to no backtrolling.
Herbie screwed it all up for the rest of us...:)
JT, If these 'rocket scientists' who you fish with want the laws changed, they can get their whiny butts up off the stool and get involved in the CC process to get it done. They have a vote and the right to be heard, but if they don't participate in the democratic process, they are the problem, not those who actually DO.
NO trolling is legal ANYWHERE in Wisconsin unless that body of water is on the list allowing the technique. Why is that significant? The law is in place so the waters have to be approved rather than trolling being legal statewide and prohibited on certain waters. Think about it.
Here's the DNR's position. Same as mine and Mr. Sloan's, I think:
http://dnr.wi.gov/fish/faq/trolhist.htm
Why is everyone insulting the intelligence of those who don't want trolling up here? They are traditionalists who have reasonable arguments that DO make some sense when presented well, and they currently are the majority and are currently enjoying the law as they want things up here to be, soooooo-- we are smarter than them how? I bet those folks don't think our 'improvements' are needed.
Bitching form the sidelines is just plain weak. The folks I see voting I'll listen to. Those who don't participate in the process or have the slightest clue how the CC system (which I feel is a patently ridiculous way to manage game and fish) works, might as well talk to their OWN hand. |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | Steve,
Yes, I also insulted the intelligence of those who vote no to trolling, no on higher size limits, and celebrate single hook sucker fishing. This is one crowd (with exceptions, of course), that decides our fishing regulations. Just look at those who wanted to repeal the 50” on Pelican this year. I’m probably being too blunt, but I’m tired of it. Maybe wrong with the the insults, it’s just frustrating. I digress.
And no, we’re not sitting on the sidelines, but have been trying to get this tilt changed so that just maybe (long shot, we know) a fish biologist’s opinion is taken a little more seriously than a tavern patron when it comes to fishery management.
Am in full agreement that bitching on a message board is worthless, get out and get it done!
JS
ps - any good deer on the trail cams? |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | My point exactly, J, I know I preaching to the Choir with you. We can change this, there's enough support from the DNR, but the REAL support from the very folks who want the change if you ask them... isn't there when the vote is taken...why I have no idea.
The guys who tried to get the Pelican 50" limit repealed were a very small minority...and they were very quick witted for the most part and almost got a viable audience where none should be.
Yup, one very nice buck visiting the food plot and a couple borderline shooters, but it's just too warm to hunt them, at least for me. The deer ticks are unreal right now and mosquitoes not any better. 72 degrees tomorrow...this is nuts. |
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Location: Des Moines IA | 80 degrees in Des Moines Saturday, gonna put a real wierd twist to Iowa bowhunting that's foresure ................. |
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| "It is what the majority wanted" What if the majority doesn't want the natives to spear? It isn't a Democracy Sworall it is a Constitutional Repbublic here in the good old USA. I'll keep saying it until you figure out it isn't majority does whatever it wants. |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | DJS,
In this case, it is a simple majority vote that will get the proposed rule change or new rule accepted or rejected. Conservation Congress meetings, across the State. It's democracy, majority vote. Attend a meeting, maybe.
As you already know, the Federal Government entered into the Treaties with the Tribes. It's the Tribes RIGHT to fish. It's our PRIVILEGE. We can't vote away the treaties entered into between two sovereign governments.
If you don't take the time to get involved in the process or vote, you got nothing to say. Simple.
I never said the majority does whatever it wants.
That's a ridiculous comment.
Take the rest elsewhere, not interested in a bull#*#* argument over our government.
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