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Posts: 661
Location: Roscoe IL | As sucker season approaches, I'm making up new QS rigs using various sized treble hooks attached to coated braided wire as you would see in most rigs of this type. As I’m making these last night, I’m watching River Monsters on the boob tube, they are fishing for Tiger fish using live bait. Now these fish are totally endangered and they are using J-hooks on the baits back, and one back by the tail. They even say that using these hooks improve hooking percentages since the treble hooks have 3 points and it’s difficult to drive them into the fish since there is more resistance. On certain days know one knows this better than me! I lost 13 fish in one afternoon on QS rigs and only one made it into the net, that one came off the hooks just as it went in the net, so I have to credit the netman for the help.
So here I sit making up rigs using trebles and I’m wondering if I’m making a mistake. Muskies are not endangered and my hooking percentage is below 50% using any rig with a treble including some of the custom rigs from BNelson and others on this site. If I used a stinger J-hook in the back of a Sucker, am I putting a Muskie in anymore danger than if I used a treble hook back by its tail? Yes, I’m setting the hooks as hard as I possibly can and have over 100 catches, I’m just looking to improve anyway I can other than putting a fish in jeopardy when it’s not needed.
I have read how J-hooks have been proven to kill Muskies, but I’m wondering if they were allowing the Muskie to swallow the bait. Quick strike means set the hook immediately and that is what we do. I feel that any fishing can put fish in danger, but we learn ways to prevent or minimize that with proper techniques and proper tackle.
I take great pride in knowing that every Muskie I have captured has been released. Going into the cold water period this year, I would like to see if a better technique is all thats needed or is it these QS rigs that are hurting my percentage.
I respect the people on this site and want to hear your thoughts on a QS rig with J-hooks. I’m apprehensive but curious.
Edited by ToothyCritter 9/8/2010 1:46 PM
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Location: The Yahara Chain | Nelson's rig is good. I have a couple of friends that make mine and i have them make them similar to BN's. I really like having the two hooks on one seven strand wire.
If you are under 50% it is something to do with your technique not the treble hooks.
I have charted my hookup percentages since 2005 and I am 72% (68 for 94) using a QS rig with two trebles.
I don't think that it is hard to drive a treble hook into a musky on a QS rig.
I have fished with a few Sally's who seem to have issues though. 
I like to create a little slack in the line right before I set, this creates a 'snap' that really gets the rig flying off the sucker. I am also a big believer in using a rubber band through the nose instead of a small hook.
The J hooks that are swallowed will kill the fish, I would imagine that if you hooked the fish in the mouth with one it won't cause any harm. I just fail to see how it would increase your hook ups over the treble.
Edited by Bytor 9/8/2010 3:04 PM
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Posts: 661
Location: Roscoe IL | Troy,
My attempts to copy the Nelson rig have generated some funny things to show to my fishing buddies. I even called him asking for help since my clamps looks completely different and resulted in a sharp edge. He had no problem giving me advice and I have nothing but respect for that. I retired my one and only Nelson rig after 6 fish, however I did lose over 10 even on that one.
Slack line is not something I have tried, I do use the bubberband through the nose too so it must be the operator. A thinner gaged hook such as a Eagle claw vs a VMC could work. So thats why I'm making a slew of different QS rigs with different size hooks. But I don't think that's the be all to end all for me. Sure is fun tinkering around and trying to build a better mousetrap. |
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Posts: 1887
Location: syracuse indiana | i also use the rubber band method, but i do take one of the hooks on the treble and straigten it out and just peirce it throught the skin on the underside of the sucker. there is no problem at all jackin a fish with this method. i suggest some of you guy's try this when making your qs rigs.. also i use the rubber bands and i twist the band up about 4 times to tighten it up , most guys do the tuck method with the snap. but i found it being tighter on the sucker and one quick snap of the rod and its broken i garrentee it...bill |
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Posts: 968
Location: N.FIB | I think alot of times the muskie will grab the sucker by the head and not the tail where alot of people think when they get misses.maybe using a rig with a big single hook going through the mouth of the sucker and then a treble or 2 on the side of the sucker would work.I don`t have many misses on the mania type quick strike rig,but do have some every year. |
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Posts: 383
Location: SE Wisc and Vilas County | any of the rubber band rigs are good. Make sure you are using a good rod like the 9ft musky innovations live bait rod, that will make a difference in hook ups. Also thumb your spool when you set the hook and don't keep your drag as tight as you would for casting tis will cause more hooks to pull out then u think. hope this helps. |
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Posts: 999
| Toothycritter, this may be a silly question but I dont see it brought up here yet, are you making sure the musky is swimming away from you before you put the screws to it? Ive set them when they are going away but close to the boat and away 20 ft from the boat and have excellent hook ups for the most part. Also what size rod are you using? I use 7 and 8 ft Hvy Glass rods with 100 pound Power Pro.
Edited by Mr Musky 9/8/2010 9:31 PM
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Posts: 20211
Location: oswego, il | Alot to sucker fishing than just the rigs. I make my own, 100% flourocarbon. 12 years and no failures. I use light wire mustad short shank round bends too 1/0-3/0, one tang bent 90 degrees to stick in the fish. Light wire hooks up well in the fish. Mine can be made up on the spot per sucker size and i use a small treble with two points cut off for the nose. Hook is small and they eye is big so it has no issues with the snap like a walleye minnow hook would. I also play the fish light, just in case it's not hooked well. They don't rip out tons of line but do sit under the boat under pressure alot but they come up quick even still. You can catch them unhooked sometimes this way. |
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Posts: 272
| I would evaluate the rest of your setup and look for weak links.
My initial suggestion is to get a nice long relatively whippy glass rod that has a bunch of sponge to it. Everybody thinks you need a pool que for this stuff. Keeping these fish pinned, whether casting or trolling, is much tougher with the XXXXXXHF rods we're all told we need. I purchased two relatively spongy rods this year for casting and definitely got away with some things I would say I wouldn't have with a XXXXXHF. A friend of mine that's pretty good at dragging "Petey's" uses big glass catfish rods.
Next, experiment with the gear ratios on your reel. |
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Posts: 134
| Going back to your first thoughts on the J hooks. I have made a couple rigs using 2 large spinner bait hooks with a small panfish hook solderd on to the shank in the oposite direction of the gap and barb and are used to stick to sucker. The single hooks are on differnt lenghts of floro (maina rig style)and both tied to a barrel swivel which has a 2 ft lead tied to the other end which is threaded through another barrel swivel and another barrel swivel tied to other end which is used to attach to the braid. The barrel that is threaded can slide up and down the 2 ft lead to adjust for sucker size, and is attached to a bread tie through nose with a small brass swivel snap that easily opens up on hookset. Have had a pretty good hook up with this and works great in weeds!! |
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| You wont be loosing any fish if you use a Bigtooth. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | imo I don't get why some guys negate 33% of the hooks when they turn one of the 3 hooks on a 2 treble rig into a J...so you have 6 "hooks" and you are going to bend 2 of them sideways? so you are left w/ 4 of the six to stick a fish with? guess I have never understood that...the rigs I make I do not bend them and suggest guys dont...simply scrape some scales away, insert hook all the way up thru past barb on each of the 2 trebles..pointed up...at the "bend" of the side of the sucker to the top....I also went away from a "whippy" cat rod years ago to pretty much a pool cue Lightning Rod saltwater casting rod, 7' length...unless you custom make a rod I have not seen one w/ more backbone...using these rigs, that rod, 130 lb braid I am batting over .750 last 3 seasons averaging at least 25 fish a year on suckers...some guys might say they are 100% then you ask how many hits and they say 3...ok great tell me you are at 100% when you get to 30 or more hits in a season and I might listen to what you are doing different..until then if you can get 75 to 85% on quick strikes you are doing as well as you are going to do...think about casting...does anyone catch 100% or even 90 % of the fish that hit a lure? again, not 5 hits...how about 50 or 100 hits...? doubtful
same goes w/ sucker rigs...quick strikes are never going to be full proof but I have to believe mine are about as good as you are going to get ...I use 130 and 180 fluoro to 175 lb 49 strand...90 lb can and will break...don't use that stuff imo.
how is this egotistical? just stating what I use that works and what doesn't...for me...to each their own "guest".
Edited by BNelson 9/13/2010 5:40 PM
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| You need to check out the new rigs by Fuzzy Shumway. They use a unique spring steel attachment that will make the rubber band rigs obsolete. I believe he calls them the EZ-Duzzit. I look forward to the cold days ahead and the ease of these rigs! |
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Posts: 2037
Location: lansing, il | BNelson - 9/13/2010 5:10 PM
imo I don't get why some guys negate 33% of the hooks when they turn one of the 3 hooks on a 2 treble rig into a J...
just stating what I use that works and what doesn't...for me...to each their own "guest".
Looks like you answered your own question...... Some guys like rubber bands, some guys like small hooks, some guys like to stick a screwdriver in the nostrils." to each their own." We use bent hooks on all the harnesses made by Stealth Tackle. Why?? because it is what has worked for us. We like the way the rig "lifts out" of the bait, does it make a difference??? Who knows. Alot of the guys tell me since using our rigs they have a higher hook up percentage than what they had in the past. I personally do not catch that many fish on suckers per year anymore just because of T. O. W. the past few seasons, however I still have a fairly high catch to loss ratio for sucker fishing. So ill continue making our rigs with a bent hook. I also think it is easier to rig with the hook bent down for placement purposes. But that is just me.
You did hit the nail on the head though! To each their own. use what you are comfortable with. If your losing too many fish then its time to re adjust. but if fish are hittin the nets then roll with what ya got.
Edited by muskihntr 9/13/2010 7:15 PM
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | why do you stick a screwdriver through their nose? a straightened out paperclip works fine ... |
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Posts: 2037
Location: lansing, il | I dont know why but it was on a video clip on this site. |
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Posts: 238
Location: Rhinelander | Brad, what would it take to buy some of your rigs?
I sucker fish quite a bit......hate to admit but my hooking % sucks. If I go 50% that is a good year.
One day went 1 for 9.....ouch....with one lost being a fish to talk about till next year. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | I sent you PM Hodag...
I guess I still don't get the need to J a hook and negate that hook point...I can place my hooks exactly where you can and still get to keep that hook ...maybe I'm missing something...your original rigs only had 1 treble..so you have 3 hooks...and then you J one to only give you 2 ? just seems odd...anyway...keep doin it whatever way works...but there is always a better mousetrap to be made, until then I'll keep tinkering
Edited by BNelson 9/13/2010 8:47 PM
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Posts: 999
| I run nothing but Brad Nelson's rigs and I have to say i've used them all over the years and i've been most impressed with his. Infact I ordered 2 more from him today. I highly recommend them if your interested in increasing your hook up percentages.
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Posts: 1220
| I had a very unique opportunity a few year's back to sucker fish in an area where I could see all the muskies very clearly swimming in extrordinarily clear and shallow water--dozens of them, every day for a whole week. I had a chance to see how they approached the suckers, nudged them, herded them, corraled them really and not necessarily in a hurry either...really sort of torturing the poor bastards with bone chilling fear, then striking with extrordinary speed and violence, almost always a T-bone, and then often remaining totally still in the water, not trying to swim away at all. This experience taught me lessons that took my percentage of hooking up from fairly embarrassing all the way to pretty darn confident that I am going to use the net. One of the things I learned is that I often pulled the trigger way too soon, way too lightly, and not really knowing for sure that my hookset was going to be a "pretty sure thing" before I made it. Another was thinking I had to be oh-so-careful, not being aware that the musky really, really, really does not want to let go of the prey. A big mistake was thinking that I needed more hardware than I did or that the extra treble was not a turn-off to the fish. In a nutshell, my comment is a one-treble, rubber band, Herbie-rig is about as close to perfect as you need to get. A proper hookset in all likelyhood need not occur until you actually see (with your own eyes) exactly whether you are more likely to pull the hook into or out of the muskie's mouth.....and last....if you ever see the sucker or the rubber band again-----change your name to Sally and buy a dress! Marty Forman |
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Location: Contrarian Island | Marty, not doubting what you saw...but I know here in Southern WI the muskies go thru phases where I have no doubt they are grabbing the muskies from behind / by the tail...in this situation a 2 treble rig, one placed say 1/3 back and one 2/3rds back might up your odds...they seem to do that early in the fall and many other guys have experienced this as well...in fact I've gotten to the point at times we put enough pressure on the fish to lift them up enough to see how they have the sucker...definitely don't have them t boned all the time...
I also don't use a rubber band as I think putting it thru the nose is time consuming and when it's 25 degrees and windy my hands are not that nimble..I use a small walleye hook placed in the "meat" above the mouth in front of the nostrils and that has worked well...
Edited by BNelson 9/13/2010 9:19 PM
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Posts: 374
Location: Bemidji | I love Brad's rigs and have been using them since last year. I don't want any bends on my trebles. In fact, I dont want any barbs even in the sucker. I run small safety pins through the eye of the hook and into the sucker. They break free and all the barbs of the treble can easily go into the mouth of the fish. The treble is laying on the outside of the sucker and not penetrating it at all. The safety pin is less harmful to the sucker and they seem to last longer. We did very well last year using this method and using Brad's rigs. Hopefully he is making me more rigs this week. |
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Posts: 2037
Location: lansing, il | BNelson - 9/13/2010 8:43 PM
I sent you PM Hodag...
I guess I still don't get the need to J a hook and negate that hook point...
Right, Right, Right, so i guess you dont really believe your own statement. "to each their own" because you dont seem to want to accept it.
I talk to lots of people thru the course of the year at various shows, clubs, etc If someone tells me they have something that works great for them, that is different from mine, id be the first one to tell them to keep doing what their doing. I dont need to understand anything about it, if it works for them why change. My way works for me yours for you...To each their own right???????? whats to get or not get???
Bud Light works for me, but my partner says Miller Lite works for him and the other clown says no way hes gotta have Gin. I dont argue with them, I get mine and they get theirs. We all usually wind up with the same results though.
Now time to go bend some hooks! |
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| I also think J'ing a hook is a waste of a good hook! TS |
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Posts: 2037
Location: lansing, il | Well if you must know, We built a 2 hook rig due to demand. People asked for it so we built it. They work and they catch fish. Is that ok? I actually offer 4 different versions of QS rigs. I still offer the original hulcano harness and sell quite a few of them. I personally still use my original rig that i used before the hulcanos were born and am now offering those as well. they work. But since people requested 2 hooks we built it. I also have a friend (Musky Psycho) who builds a 3 hook rig and his work too. Herbie rigs work as well. Your rigs work too. lots of options.
We bent our hooks because we feel (our opinion, not yours, and I respect your "not getting it") that we get better hook set penatration because in theory the hook pulls up and out on the set. We also feel (again our opinion) that a rig with a bent hook is easier to rig by pushing the hook down and thru the skin once you have the wire length and hook position set right where you want it. All our opinion. you dont have to like it or agree with it and im not gonna tell you its better or its worse, its what we feel works best for us. Again to each their own. Use what your comfortable with.
Edited by muskihntr 9/13/2010 10:46 PM
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Posts: 1220
| Just so we are straight, I am one of many guys who tends not to trust stuff like leaders too easily, but don't hesitate to take one of John's Stealth leaders right out of the bag and into a tournament. I just like to make my own QS rigs, think one hook placed properly 2/3 back is all I need, and that the way I've seen fish give suckers the eyeball and the bumps and nudges...that they clearly can swim away from too much hardware. Opinions are like rectums, we all have one, and mine works for me. Marty |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
I tend to use different rigs for different situations. A one hook rig is fine for a smaller sucker, 14-17", but larger than that and you run the risk of a fish not getting hooks in it's mouth. As Brad mentioned many time they are grabbing the tails earlier in the fall, but some will t-bone them. With one hook on a big sucker you're going to miss some fish.
As far as bending hooks, I've used them both and can't say that bending them has done any better for hooking up.
I do think they pull our easier when you're trying to fish weeds though, which makes them a pain.
I think putting hooks on top the fish rather than on the sides gets more hits as well. Muskies don't "see" them as well if they are up on the back IMO.
JS
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Posts: 1220
| The John S. post above mentioning hooks on top is really why IMO the Hulcano Harness became popular. A fish that has eyes placed in a way that tend to look upward at it's prey will see the bottom of the bait and not see the trebble buried above his noggin ( a lot of the time). I really think it only enhances what I said above about fish being shy of hardware. My only feeling with that harness is you have to be a little better with your technique when setting the hook than you have to be the way I do it. My choices always tend to favor the angler who is likely to "eff" it up just a bit, but still want to catch the fish---that would be me! Marty |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | i won't argue that muskies don't eat a sucker from the bottom once in awhile, but it's usually from following and then from the side. if they are hardware timid then how do you support that they eat a bait with 12" of leader out and a rod-tip swirling around in the water.
this one is starting to get deep ... lol
at least the guest is using his sign-in to debate now though.
best contribution i've seen so-far is cochran not using hooks into the sucker at all and keeping them completely free ... |
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Posts: 221
Location: Detroint Lakes, MN |
Well not all fish will eat with 12" of leader out at the boat all the time. Some will some won't, depends on the mood of the fish.
I'm not saying fish won't eat suckers if they see hardware all the time either, but I'm pretty convinced by what I've witnessed that sometimes it does make a difference.
Maybe it has to do more with how the suckers moves with hooks in different places. Maybe if it's cloudy or windy it doesn't matter.
All I know is fishing side by side with guys that have more visible hardware there are many days where they get looks and not hits.
JS |
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