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| I'm looking at it hard. And which one had the problems with the antenae?
I hate to jump, it will probably be half the price in a couple years. |
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| I run one. How useful it is depends on how you use it. You won't get a great picture of a wide swath in a single pass. More often you will note something of interest off to a side. On a return trip when you pass much closer you will get a far better image. Anything too far off to the side stays in the return a while and gives an elongated image.
Usually in 2 passes though you can mark everything of interest, as opposed to a long zig-zagging hunt. I also like the dual view down imaging 2d sonar. Takes most of the guessing out of what's below you. |
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Location: Kodiak, AK | Not sure what you mean by the "problems with the antenae." You mean the transducer? Must have been 'bird because LSS hasn't had any ducer issues that I'm aware of. I think both work really well and I know happy owners of each. I will say that Humminbird's down scan capability come from a software update, which extrapolates a down scan from the two side scans, whereas LSS has a dedicated portion of the transducer for down scan. Some have said LSS's down scan is better than 'bird's. I don't know.
I have LSS and I love it. I can't say it's changed how I fish, but let's just say it's really helped the way I fish. Learn to use it, read it, adjust it, and apply it and you'll love it. |
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| esoxfly - 8/24/2010 11:07 PM
Not sure what you mean by the "problems with the antenae." You mean the transducer? Must have been 'bird because LSS hasn't had any ducer issues that I'm aware of. I think both work really well and I know happy owners of each. I will say that Humminbird's down scan capability come from a software update, which extrapolates a down scan from the two side scans, whereas LSS has a dedicated portion of the transducer for down scan. Some have said LSS's down scan is better than 'bird's. I don't know.
I have LSS and I love it. I can't say it's changed how I fish, but let's just say it's really helped the way I fish. Learn to use it, read it, adjust it, and apply it and you'll love it.
These models both have a choice of internal and external antennae. One of them had a problem with the internal antennae. I had heard Lowrance, but it was the humming bird rep claiming that.
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Location: MN | The bird rep is talking about units that are 3-5 years old (300 & 500 series) The new HDS units have not had internal antenna problems. |
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| Some of the Lowrance guys have clamied that the Hbird down imaging loses some of the structure that is directly beneath the boat. This is what esoxfly is referring too. This is not true as some of the Lowrance guys would have you believe. I have seen several encompassing tests in which people will take an object only a few inches in diameter and pass the Hbird transducer directly over the top of it. (a balloon filled with a small amount of air in this case) The balloon shows up everytime.
There is a lot of misinformation out there on side and down scanning/imaging systems. Some of it is unintentional, and some is very intentional from people trying to push you to, (or from) one brand or another. Just because someone seems like they know what they are talking about either on the internet or in person doesn't mean they really do, or that they are aren't purposefully spreading half truths or flat out lies about this or that companies product. Be very wary of anybody pushing you extremely hard to one specific company.
This is in no way directed at esoxfly.
Edited by Plunker 8/25/2010 8:09 AM
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| Sorry to throw in my 2 cents. This should be the disclaimer that pops up on your computer screen right before you do any type of internet search for a product or service. That is perfect! Well stated Plunker
"Just because someone seems like they know what they are talking about either on the internet or in person doesn't mean they really do, or that they are aren't purposefully spreading half truths or flat out lies about this or that companies product. Be very wary of anybody pushing you extremely hard to one specific company." |
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| I agree...Do your homework and take time to go out with people who have each brand and make your decision based off that, not what you read. The information you found on the internet may then validate your experience or you may find something completely different.
Good luck, |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I haven't seen anything on MuskieFIRST that indicates one side or downscan works 'better' than the other, just claims that both work very well. There have been more questions about the Lowrance, from what I've seen, and an effort has been made to answer those questions accurately.
I get a charge out of people who make a claim on this website, and then tell everyone not to accept any claims on the web as accurate. Research is what it is, and one should take care to learn everything one can from informed sources.
Does the 'Bird have an analog display, and the Lowrance digital? I believe that is one difference. If so, look up the difference between the two types of displays.
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| Steve,
I see now what you are saying. I agree. I just still like that statement. I own an internet based storefront business. You would be amazed at what some people believe because some other internet company said it was true. |
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| My statement was not directed at you either Steve, or anyone in particular on this website. Some of the other forums that are more directly related to these product searches are more what I was refferring to. There are many people on them who get very defensive and downright nasty with the lies and misinformation I was speaking of. I put my comment out there to warn against those people ; not anyone on MFirst. |
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Location: Kodiak, AK | Yeah, I wasn't trying to push anyone towards any one in particular. I was just commenting on the differences between the downscan technologies and what'd I been told by others who'd used both; that they preferred the LSS downscan, which was part of the info I used when it came time for me to replace my LCX with either 'Bird or HDS/LSS. I thought it might be helpful. I wasn't trying to sell anyone on LSS. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Thanks guys. IS the Bird display analog? |
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| Steve, both Lowrance and HBird's obviously send out an analog signal (the ping) which is then returned to the boat and eventually in one of the processess gets converted to a digital signal. Maybe the Lowrance turns their signal into a digital one a step or two earlier in the game. Exactly where it happens from the transducer to your screen is probably a question for the actual programmers at the respective companies, and probably one they wouldn't tell you anyway. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Plunker,
I was speaking to the actual screen display. there are analog and digital displays sent to LCD screens, and the detail on a digital display is reported to be superior to an analog display. |
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| the detail on a digital display is reported to be superior to an analog display.
reported?
walk into your local Gander or Cabelas and look at them side-by-side.
pretty hard to see any difference...both pretty good.
putting "digital" or "high definition" on the name of something is good for marketing these days, but what does it really mean?
kinda like putting the picture of a muskie on something...
Edited by lambeau 8/27/2010 10:35 AM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Yes, reported; I have to go from the research I have done because I...just like you...am not an expert on the subject. Digital LCD displays are reported by those who ARE experts to offer a sharper, more defined image, with less distortion and less loss of detail in the transfer to an image on the screen. As I understand it, this requires a video card or similar interface in the unit. I was looking for information as to whether the Bird is analog. by the way, I am running Bird on one rig I use, and Lowrance on the other. No brand preference for me either way right now.
Less loss of detail I would think to be a good thing. Certainly, the display you are looking at right now (computer monitor) is preferred by most to be digital, so it would follow a sonar LCD screen would offer similar characteristics which is of interest to me; hence, the question.
eg:
An LCD (liquid-crystal display) like a computer, is a digital device. Manufacturers are increasingly putting both an analog and a digital connection on LCDs. When connected via an analog connection, an LCD is vulnerable to the same distortions that affect CRT monitors. However, when connected via a digital connection, often labeled DVI (for Digital Visual Interface), no digital-to-analog conversion is required, and there should be no loss or corruption of the signal.
Nothing to do with a picture of a muskie, it's a technical question to which there should be defined answers. Also will be interesting to see where the backlit LED screens go in the future; sure like mine on my Macbook Pro.
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| Yes, reported; I have to go from the research I have done because I...just like you...am not an expert on the subject. Digital LCD displays are reported by those who ARE experts to offer a sharper, more defined image, with less distortion and less loss of detail in the transfer to an image on the screen.
well, if only experts can tell the difference...
and if i'm just a plain old belly-up-to-the-bar customer who's unable to tell the difference between well-defined and ill-defined images...
what good would it do me?
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Read the paragraph you quoted again. The part after: Digital displays are reported to offer -
Obviously, not only experts can tell the difference. That's why most LCD displays are now digital. If the Bird isn't yet, I'm betting it will be soon. No one answered the question... and I can't locate anything on the website; is the Bird display digital or analog?
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| The Bird Intwrlink network is digital
The lowrance display is digital
What does that mean???
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | What does that have to do with the question I asked? I'm curious about the display on the Bird. Thomas Allen tells me it's analog, and he's certain. All I wanted to know. |
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Location: Iowa | I got the lowrance lss-1 along with two hds units this year and all I can say is wow. It's unbelieveable what this thing shows. Trees, stumps, bottom transitions, weedlines are all amazingly clear with the strucrure scan. I've even marked a bridge in a reservoir down here in Iowa. It takes alot of guessing out of reading a sonar. Just one thing you have to remember that the clarity of side scan is all relative to how deep of water your in. So if you plan on scanning a 150' or 180' wide in 10' of water. You aren't going to see much out past 60' to 80'.
I've have also read that humminbird is analog and lowrance in digital. Don't exactly know the differences but I think steve is on the right track of it being a crisper, more detailed image. I think it supposed to be faster also. I have also read that humminbirds side imaging is all a software program, where lowrance is a hardware system, I guessing thats why with structure scan you have ethernet box rather than nothing with the humminbirds. And with humminbirds downscan is a interpretation of it's side scan where as lowrance's downscan and side scan are two different features in one transducer. I'm guessing it's supposed to show a truer image while using the downscan feature. Another benefit from the lss-1 ethernet box is that it can accomadate up to three hds units. So if you want to view downscan or structure scan from each unit you can and you don't have spend the extra cash on two or three units with side scan.
I've have yet to have a problem with my internal antenna even though I would like to upgrade to the new 4000 puck.
I guess a couple of things I did when I was deciding between buying a couple of graphs (or onboard computers) this last spring was I went to bass pro and looked at both units and stood there and played with both of them for an hour or so. And I did this a couple of different times. I found myself playing with the lowrance more and I liked a lot of the features too.
With lowrance's customer service dramatically improving over the last few months. Or so I've read on ido fishing there shouldn't be too much more bashing lowrance for long wait times. I guess it says on their facebook page the the average wait time is under five or six minutes now.
Don't get me wrong I don't think humminbirds are bad units, I just like the lowrances better. I guess one drawback I might be kicking myself over in the future, is when humminbird comes out with the capabilities of being able to run your i-pilot through the humminbird unit. Now that will be cool.
Jeremy
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Location: Iowa | One thing on humminbirds interlink system. From what I understand is that they are going to a ethernet system like lowrance has. Does anybody know if there going to compliment each other or is interlink going to be a thing of the past?
Jeremy
Edited by jwelch 8/28/2010 1:29 AM
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| JWelch, that is some interesting information and the kind of user knowledge I was hoping for. One of the appeals to me of the HB is its total compactness as a package, and I will not be reading it from another screen, although I could see the advantage of that also. Good info, thanks.
A lot of this stuff goes over my head and beyond my technology horizon. Just cause something can be done, doesn't mean we all want to do it. I wanna go find a few nooks and crannies and fish them, not contact or navigate to Mars. |
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Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | sworrall - 8/27/2010 10:19 PM
What does that have to do with the question I asked? I'm curious about the display on the Bird. Thomas Allen tells me it's analog, and he's certain. All I wanted to know.
Steve, this thread is almost to funny, except I understand that the folk's like jwelch posting or Thomas Allen are serious. Actually the Bird display is digital, it's ludicrous to state it's analog. Don't believe everything you hear come out of a salesman's mouth. W/ ~ 44 years in electronics, its easy to see the flawed logic that unscrupulous salesman have infected the potential buyer/user's with in respect to one versus the other.
Part of the problem may be related to articles like this one.
http://www.eetimes.com/design/power-management-design/4009946/Under...
Given the title, if you're not an electronics engineer, you may come away with the impression that the Bird is analog.
"The MPU drives the display, almost certainly doing some pretty sophisticated image processing to translate raw return signals into usable LCD imagery. The CPU manages the analog elements of the 535's design. A semi-sinusoidal pulsed signal is boosted by a push-pull amplifier, sizable storage capacitor and step-up transformer; the intense burst is sent out and a timer in the processor starts a counter for later determination of the return pulse delay.
In generating a usable return signal, the NXP SA604A FM intermediate-frequency subsystem chip is used, but only for its received-signal strength indicator (RSSI) circuitry. The return transducer ping creates a logarithmic RSSI voltage, which is digitized using Samsung's built-in A/D converter. Its timer is also stopped when the return ping is detected/digitized, and now both the delay and signal-strength data needed to build the picture are available. "
Yeah, I know you understood 100% everything he said! He did say "analog", in fact all modern sonars are part analog and part digital. The analog part is the transducer circuitry - the transducer uses analog high frequency signals or as the author says -"semi-sinusoidal pulsed signal", the weak return signal has to be amplified and converted to a digital signal for the MPU (micro-processor unit). That's where the A/D converter a.k.a. analog to digital converter comes into the picture. Once it's in digital format, it's digital all the way from the MPU to the LCD. Lowrance is the same, i.e., the transducer portion is analog.
Where the real differences my exist could be in the DSP (digital signal processing) architecture, i.e., how the unit manages the digital signal..... The Bird definitely uses an "firmware" update methodology, i.e., the functionality can be changed "on-the-fly", by on-the-fly I mean you don't have to buy new hardware or a new unit. The real horse power is in the firmware, not the hardware.
http://www.techterms.com/definition/firmware
F. ex. I upgraded my SI 997NVB this year to the new Downscan and Switchfire functionality from Humminbird. I had two choices, as a registered owner of the HB 997SI, I could download the new firmware from the Bird website and install it myself for free or I could send the unit in and for a nominal fee - $60 they would upgrade it for me - I chose the latter, because I didn't want to take any risk's of accidently corrupting the install by doing it wrong. The HB service dept is top notch. I can't wait to see what the next refinement is from HB for my 997SI, it can only get better.
I can't attest or comment about the Lowrance, although I do like what the downscan display looks like from what I've seen on the www. However, that's just one aspect of selecting a product. jwelch has the right persective - play with them before you leap. Go for a ride w/ someone who already has them. At the time I bought my Bird, it was the only game in town. But given my investment, I'm not dashing out & buying the Lowrance.
BTW: I am by no means an expert on sonars. But, I do own 4 Birds that haven't failed me yet. 66 Flasher, LCR2000, Pirhana 160, SI997NVB. I also have an Eagle that came with my boat-ESOX Maniac.
FSF. Either the Humminbird or the Lowrance side imaging should let you find the nooks & cranny's. You will be amazed at what you haven't been seeing w/ regular sonar. One of the features I like about the Bird is the fact I can display all three at the same time - side scan, downscan, and regular sonar. Hit the "Mark" button and you've got a snapshot saved of the screen with a GPS waypoint marked on your GPS track data. I don't know if the Lowrance can do the same thing, i.e., display all three...
My current project is to make my HB 997SI portable for next year's muskie flyin - already aquired a spare TM mount SI transducer w/cable at a local sport shop clearance sale, next is spare GPS puck & cable (this winter) & weather sense module. Wahoo, flyin muskies w/side scan technology & GPS & weather sense- In the past I've taken my Pirhana, or before that my fishing partner's "Fishin' Buddy". Our last trip we put 17 muskies in the net, that's also allowing for chasing laker's (a guy's gotta eat some fish). But next year I'll finally be able to see those hidden nook's & cranny's on the flyin -> fish on!
My brother inlaw put it pretty well on our Canadian walleye trip, i.e., once he understood how to use the HB w/side imaging and GPS tracking- "Al, this should almost be illegal". Actually, I don't want all you muskie hunter's to go for side imaging, just do it the old fashion way, stick the rod in the water and see if you can touch bottom or get a long string and a stone!
Have fun!
Al
Edited by ESOX Maniac 8/28/2010 12:11 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | OK, Al, thanks! Fianlly, a couple answers from someone who should know and isn't just peeing on a post to mark territory...I think. Perhaps a dumb question...Is it possible that the digital signal can be still processed by the display as analog, similar to a CRT Monitor or an LCD monitor without the DVI Interface hooked up my Dell?
This is a 'talked about' enough issue by consumers looking for comparisons between the brands one would think a company like Bird would want to address it directly...maybe we can offer up a chance to do so.
I didn't listen to any salesman (in fact don't know any from either company) at all, but did hear claims second hand from both sides about the competitor's units that could be suspect. I'll try to contact Bird directly Monday to get an official take on all of this, and do the same thing with Lowrance. I buy my sonars right off the shelf at the store like most everyone else, and have no allegiance to either company, so anyone trying to read that in to this can cease...it's tiresome and detracts from actually trying to get at the facts of the matter.
I would think the answer to this question would be out there in the company literature somewhere, especially if the specs on the unit are not clearly understood by the consumer.
I'll get to test the customer service from Humminbird Monday, my new unit I just installed suddenly decides there's no transducer connected and goes into simulator mode. Restart, and all is well for awhile. Weird. I brought an extra unit off my 2050 along, and it works fine on the same transducer. Ghosts in the machine... |
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| If the display is LCD then it's digital. Period. |
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Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Steve, No reason to pee on a post, I actually like what I see- re. the Lowrance Downscan. The facts of who's better are imbedded in the DSP capabilities and features customers want, like was posted in some other discussions, re. HB vs Lowrance, it can only get better- competition is good. They are both reputable companies and certainly they are not involved in miss-information dissemination.
Yes-
I'd think you have a ghost may be a good analysis. However, even ghost's have a reason for existance, its just hard to understand why. I'd send it back to HB for repair/checkout. There are all kinds of strange stuff that can happen w/ either analog or digital systems. The fact you can replace the unit indicates to me its a unit problem, and I'm sure if it's internal they will fix it. The fact it loses and re-aquires the transducer would lead me to look at the transducer connections and transducer analog circuits. Maybe it's a bad A/D converter? All the folks at HB should need is an accurate description of the problem as you see it! Don't try to troubleshoot, just tell them what you see as a user.
Good luck,
Al
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | b,
'If the display is LCD then it's digital. Period.'
Please explain why that's a lock because the display is LCD. Curious...
Al, Thanks, will do just that! |
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Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Steve, Maybe I can explain that better than b, - An LCD is inherently a digital device, so you just can't just feed it an analog signal. It requires a digital input. The majority of this whole analog to digital conversion debate came about because of the mandated switch of analog TV to digital TV. If you had a analog TV - now you need to have a digital to analog converter box for your TV! The same is true of old computers with analog CRT drivers- to use a LCD display you need a converter or an lCD display with the a/D converter built into it....
It would be very stupid to go digital to analog and back -> analog to digital. That would increase the complexity and the hardware cost, i.e., you already need an analog to digital converter for the transducer to MPU interface, but now also a digital to analog converter, and another analog to digital converter for the interface to the LCD. Does that really make sense? Why go through three (3) conversions? The A/D-D/A chip manufacturer's might like it!
Most modern sonar's are analog to digital, as I said above. If I could figure out a direct digital to digital sonar, I would probably be very rich. But then, I'd probably also have to invent a new sonar transducer, and the US NAVY would probably then have to lock me up!
Have fun!
Al
Edited by ESOX Maniac 8/29/2010 9:51 AM
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