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| Message Subject: muskys staying on top after release | |||
Dave T. |
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Posts: 512 | Just wondered if anyone knows why they do this? seems they will swim off, but not go under for some time.. The first fish i got over 50 did this for over a half hour!! I followed it all over to make sure it was ok and didnt get run over. eventually it went into some reeds and hung out for awhile, then finally went down into some deeper water. got it all on video, was very strange... Dave | ||
| ToddM |
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Posts: 20211 Location: oswego, il | It takes longer for them to recover in the summertime, just that simple. | ||
| Silver Scale |
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Posts: 198 | Stress from fighting and release in warm water like this summer pretty much exhausts them. Sometimes they stay on top. Good to stay with them so they don't get hit by another boat or belly up in which case you can try and revive.. | ||
| CASTING55 |
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Posts: 968 Location: N.FIB | depending on when you catch them it could be the top 2 ft of the water is cooler,one of the guides around madison adam oberfall spoke at my club and mentioned you should release fish in 10 ft of water or less,something I`ve tried to do since, or I point the fish towards the shallows if shallow water is close. | ||
| curleytail |
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Posts: 2687 Location: Hayward, WI | CASTING55 - 8/1/2010 8:40 AM depending on when you catch them it could be the top 2 ft of the water is cooler,one of the guides around madison adam oberfall spoke at my club and mentioned you should release fish in 10 ft of water or less,something I`ve tried to do since, or I point the fish towards the shallows if shallow water is close. That's interesting. I usually figured it was better to release them over deeper water when it's warm so they could get down to the cooler water easier. Wouldn't the surface temps usually be warmer in the top 2 feet unless it was in the morning or later in the evening too? I always figured if they were released over deeper water the fish could choose the best temp/depth for itself. To the original poster, they do seem to stay on the surface longer now. I also think it's because they are a little more tired out and having a harder time catching their breath. Could also be that with the fish holding a little deeper, their swim bladders are just a little more full. Maybe not enough to make them go belly up, but maybe enough to keep them just a little more bouyant. That combined with them being tired probably keeps them up on the surface a little more. Not sure if it's the best to do or not, but sometimes if a fish looks prety healty but is staying right on top in warm water I move over to it with the trolling motor. Most times they leave the surface and paddle down deeper before you get to them. curleytail | ||
| BILL |
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| You shouldn't fish for muskies if the water temp is 80 degrees or higher as muskies can not survive after being caught in those water temps... Even if the muskie swims away it can still die hours, days or even weeks after being caught in the summer time. So, if you are fishing and catching muskies in warm water, all you're doing is killing muskies. | |||
| ToddM |
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Posts: 20211 Location: oswego, il | Bill, none of us are sure where Dave was fishing or the water temps but a safe assumption is that it was recently. Even if the water temps are in the lower 70's muskies take longer to recover. | ||
| CASTING55 |
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Posts: 968 Location: N.FIB | most of the time when you release a fish it will swim down to the bottom and sit there while it recovers,why release the fish over 25ft of water when it wants to swim to the bottom.if the fish can`t make it to the bottom it might belly up in 10ft of water and die,that was his point to releasing a fish in 10ft or less.now this post is different but I would still release it in shallow water,don`t want another boat or jet ski to hit a fish up high in the water colum.also if you can stay with the fish and watch it to make sure it`s safe,why they swim in the top part of the water-I don`t know why,my guess is they are to worn out and need time to recoupe to swim below the water. | ||
| Dave T. |
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Posts: 512 | BILL - 8/1/2010 9:18 AM You shouldn't fish for muskies if the water temp is 80 degrees or higher as muskies can not survive after being caught in those water temps... Even if the muskie swims away it can still die hours, days or even weeks after being caught in the summer time. So, if you are fishing and catching muskies in warm water, all you're doing is killing muskies. Actually this happened back in 2006, and the water temps then were in the low 70s. just seems like it happens alot even if the fish are strong.. seems holding them by the tail for a bit puts them in some sort of trance...like rubbing a crocs belly! Lol. but no, it was early morning and the temps were mild for august.. Dave Edited by Dave T. 8/1/2010 11:20 AM | ||
| ski |
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Posts: 97 | When a fish stays at the top, stay with the fish for a 2 minutes. Then tap the fish LIGHTLY on the back with your rod tip. They usually shoot off to the bottom. Give them a couple minutes before you do this technique. | ||
| Cast |
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| Shock. | |||
| esoxfly |
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Posts: 1663 Location: Kodiak, AK | I had it happen to a big fish last December when the water temps were in the high 30's. Took her a while to revive, and she did the slow, top water swim in 38* water. Some fish just do it. Water temp I'm sure plays a role, but I've seen fish swim just fine, and with plenty of power on the surface for a bit and then some slowly dive, others thrash and are gone, and I've seen this in water temps from the one last December up into the 70's. Everyone has. We've also seen fish kicking and ready for release in 75* water. I think it goes fish to fish. Water temp has an effect, and I do avoid warm water. But I think alot of it is the fish's mood,and I don't pay it much mind as to "why" as long as the fish swims away under it's own power. The fish's pea brain is reacting to just having been caught and released. Who knows what it's thinking or why it does it? I've had several fish this year, where I just look over my shoulder and there's a fish a foot below the surface looking at me; some cruising, some just sitting there. (Actually converted one on an inpromptu 8). Whether they came in on a follow, or are just cruising below the surface, there they are happy and healthy in water temps 70-75. Point is, I don't think that a fish staying on the surface after a release is neccesarily a sign of distress. I think it may just choose to swim away on the surface, and all is well. Now, rolling on it's side or floating, of course are different things. But to see a fish swim away with full power, I do watch them and follow them and make sure they don't belly up, but alot of times they just swim away from the boat until I get too close and they dive down. I think it was Doug J that talked about his release method, where he gets the fish ready, but doesn't hold it until it's fighting to get away. He makes sure the fish stays upright and then he gives it a little push and away it goes. I've started do thing that this year and it really seems to work well. Get the fish moving in a direction and it tends to keep on going. (And if it wasn't Doug, I appologize....) But a fish swimming away on the surface...I think it's just the fish swimming away on the surface. Some do, some don't. I don't see it as a cry for help, and I don't worry about it. I kindof enjoy watching them swim away nice and calm like that. As long as we take every step we can to ensure the fish is safe after release, it can swim away any way it wants to! | ||
| Kevin |
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| I have had a simular situation happen several times, but aways from the same location. My experience was in cooler water temperatures 55-60. I was targeting an 8' hard bottom area just up from a very steep break out of 60' of water. It is a relatively small area off a large bar, it would not be uncommon the actually arc muskies off this break 30-40' down. Anyway, I would frequent the spot several times (like every 30 min) through out the early evening looking for an active fish. When I would catch one usually mid 40" range I found the fish upon release would roll and bob on their bellies even though the release was quick and easy. I always thought the fish possibly just came out of deep water to the shallow and I would catch them causing an upset with their swim bladder? Usually takes 30-45 minutes holding them upright until they adjust and can swim off freely. Wierd???. | |||
| BILL |
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| There are certain fishing conditions that require special precautions to be taken, or that extra care be given to the fish in order to reduce overstressing Muskies, and help minimize the occurrence of delayed mortality. There are certain fishing conditions that require special precautions to be taken, or that extra care be given to the fish in order to reduce overstressing Muskies, and help minimize the occurrence of delayed mortality. Lactic Acid is a natural by-product of functioning muscle tissue. When fish have normal blood oxygen levels, their muscles can function aerobically with very little lactic acid produced. When the supply of oxygen in their blood is depleted, more and more lactic acid is produced and they may experience numerous metabolic abnormalities. This condition is further worsened by the hypoxemia resulting from a prolonged fight in water low in dissolved oxygen, or from long periods of air exposure while the fish is handled and photographed. Hypoxia means low oxygen, and refers here to a fish’s lack of obtaining adequate oxygen. This lack of oxygen causes their pH level to decrease and they become more acidic. That in turn leads to the interference of oxygen getting delivered to the tissues, such as the heart. As the heart becomes hypoxemic, it becomes more susceptible to abnormal rhythms. In periods of pronounced hypoxemia, the heart may even cease to function normally, possibly resulting in the death of the fish. Many Muskie fishermen believe in using stout tackle and fighting the fish quickly without over-stressing the animal. When fighting a fish on the line, lactic acid begins to build in their muscle tissue. The longer the fight lasts, the higher the level of lactic acid produced. Once the level of lactic acid reaches the “point of no return”, it may cause the fish to die. They may swim away at the time they’re released, but can often die many hours or days later. Higher water temperatures can magnify the oxygen and pH imbalance in the fish, and this increases the importance of shortening the fight. To reduce lactic acid levels and restore the normal pH of the blood, exhausted fish need oxygen fast, and the only way to get oxygen to the fish quickly is by allowing water to flow through its gills. Therefore many fishermen are now choosing to simply unhook the fish in the net, to avoid handling them at all. Unhooking and releasing Muskies in a timely manner will allow them to recover much sooner, and could mean the difference between life and death for the fish. As most anglers know, water temperature is the main factor in determining how much oxygen is available to the fish. Because warm water isn’t capable of holding as much dissolved oxygen as cold water, lakes with low oxygen levels can also increase the occurrence of hypoxemia in angled fish, potentially increasing delayed mortality. Many serious Muskie fishermen will not fish for Muskies at all once the water reaches certain temperatures, such as 80 degrees. In the warm summer months when water temperatures are highest, many Muskie anglers choose to pursue other species of fish that are less sensitive than Muskies to the effects of low dissolved oxygen levels. If you do catch Muskies in the summer months, always try not to over play the Muskie and to release the fish in shallow, cool water with lots of aquatic vegetation. This will help the Muskie recover from stress faster. Deep water will stress the Muskie out more and often result in death. | |||
| scp |
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Posts: 28 | Anyone who fishes for muskies is acting in contravention of the animal's best interests. A true preservationist would exclusively donate to muskie related research, volunteer for various muskie protectionist efforts, and otherwise contribute to the general maintenance and safeguarding of the fish, etc. | ||
| CiscoKid |
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Posts: 1906 Location: Oconto Falls, WI | CASTING55 - 8/1/2010 10:22 AM most of the time when you release a fish it will swim down to the bottom and sit there while it recovers,why release the fish over 25ft of water when it wants to swim to the bottom.if the fish can`t make it to the bottom it might belly up in 10ft of water and die,that was his point to releasing a fish in 10ft or less. BILL - 8/2/2010 6:31 AM If you do catch Muskies in the summer months, always try not to over play the Muskie and to release the fish in shallow, cool water with lots of aquatic vegetation. This will help the Muskie recover from stress faster. Deep water will stress the Muskie out more and often result in death. Not sure a musky will always swim to the bottom to recoup. Data to support? I don’t think that a fish in poor shape will try to get to the bottom either. Quite frankly I simply think the fish swim to a level they feel comfortable and stay there. They don’t need the bottom to hold themselves up. Isn’t Shallow, cool water and summertime kind of an oxymoron? Again, how does deep water stress musky out more? I have seen fish released in water shallower than 10’ swim directly out to deep water. So if they get stressed out more why would a fish even do this? To me if I catch a fish in deep water I would sure think the stress of the fish would be increased more by me running it into shallower water than if I release it in deep water. Boy a guy asked a simple question relating to how a fish reacts after being released, and this turns into a H20 temp deal and not releasing fish in deep water. I honestly haven’t heard these findings on deep water releases before and would really like to learn more. A lot of it sounds like “I think” and not a whole lot of supporting evidence. Of course it interests me as most of my fishing is in deep water. Some of this sounds to me like I shouldn't fish for fish in deep water. Quite simply as a few others mentioned it just a matter of being stressed out and tired. Run a marathon and see how quickly you want to get back out jogging. Water temps really don’t seem to matter in my opinion as this happens from spring to ice-up with some fish. Deep or shallow water. Evens happens to other species, and in the winter time as well through the ice. Edited by CiscoKid 8/2/2010 2:28 PM | ||
| jonnysled |
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Posts: 13688 Location: minocqua, wi. | always release a fish in 10' or less ... ?? holy-cow, where does this come from? makes absolutely zero sense | ||
| BILL |
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| Deep water stresses the muskie out because of the pressure it puts on the fish... Deep water has more pressure and less dissolved oxygen, yes, anything 10'. Shallow water with lots of aquatic vegetation, gives off oxygen that helps the muskie recover, etc. Usually if a stressed out muskie is released into deep water it cannot recover properly and will die in hours or days later. Look up the facts. It amazes me that some people who fish for muskies actually know very little about the biology or how to fish and release them properly, then they wonder why there's hardly any real good trophy fisheries, when they are out killing potential trophies because of their ignorance and greed. | |||
| jonnysled |
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Posts: 13688 Location: minocqua, wi. | and of-course vegetation only grows in less than 10' of water right bill ... wow | ||
| BILL |
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| I didn't write it, I only stated the facts... If you want to follow them or not then that's your business... I personally don't fish for muskies in the summer because of the high mortality rates and respect for the fish. | |||
| BenR |
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scp - 8/2/2010 1:48 PM Anyone who fishes for muskies is acting in contravention of the animal's best interests. A true preservationist would exclusively donate to muskie related research, volunteer for various muskie protectionist efforts, and otherwise contribute to the general maintenance and safeguarding of the fish, etc. No doubt. | |||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32884 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | This anon is actually offering some advice that can be considered good practice, even though the idea of finding cool, shallow water with green weeds during the center of the summer can be problematic. A few of the blanket statements he/she made are problematic, too. An example, 'deeper' water can provide better oxygen levels than shallow under certain conditions, and vegetation levels and oxygen levels at certain depths can depend quite a bit on the water clarity and vegetation type and depth, how much current is available, and how much the lake can be turned by wind. Certainly, one doesn't want to rifle a fish down under the thermocline if there is one...but that isn't what we do anyway. Not every fish caught in warm water dies later, obviously. That said, the survival rate does fall, so delayed mortality will increase when water temps get too high and special care in handling is a good idea. I personally quit chasing muskies when the temps hit the very upper 70's through the fishable water column in my local lakes, but that's me. 'Bill', a suggestion...login and add some credibility. | ||
| tkopke unplugged |
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BILL - 8/2/2010 5:37 PM Deep water stresses the muskie out because of the pressure it puts on the fish... Deep water has more pressure and less dissolved oxygen, yes, anything 10'. Shallow water with lots of aquatic vegetation, gives off oxygen that helps the muskie recover, etc. Usually if a stressed out muskie is released into deep water it cannot recover properly and will die in hours or days later. Look up the facts. It amazes me that some people who fish for muskies actually know very little about the biology or how to fish and release them properly, then they wonder why there's hardly any real good trophy fisheries, when they are out killing potential trophies because of their ignorance and greed. If it indeed is that detrimental to fish I guess I have been lucky. While it is a small sampling in all due respect I or others in my boat have caught several fish, multiple times over several years, in deep water. They were released in deep water. Some of those were in mid 70° water, and over 65' of water. Only to be caught again later in the year or the next year. If mortality is as high as being said in deep water I doubt I would have been lucky enough to repeat catches of the same fish. How do I know...The fish had tags. Until I feel I am being detrimental to the fish I will continue my way of fishing. My experience, and proven by catching the same fish multiple times, is telling me that we are not harming these fish in deep water. And these are just the fish we know for certain as they are tagged or have distinct markings. Lactic acid is an issue whether the fish is caught/released in shallow water or deep water. Fish do not sink like a rock after being caught, and therefore choose at what level they will rest. While the water may be 65' I doubt they even attempt to swim to the bottom. If the pressure dramatically increases after 10' perhaps that is where they stop to rest. I would be interested in knowing where I can find data suggesting they swim to the bottom. D.O. levels...SWorral summed that one up. Heck some lakes I fish may have higher D.O. levels at 30' deep than another lake may have at it's highest point anywhere on the lake. | |||
| jonnysled |
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Posts: 13688 Location: minocqua, wi. | Mock-Yah, Ing-Yah, Bird-Yah, Yah-Yah .... sad part is there are people who do read this stuff and might actually believe it to be true. it's not an argument about water-temps. and undisolved oxygen levels. i'm pretty sure most have an understanding of that concept, but to go out and tell people that unless they release a fish in under 10 feet of water that they impart undue stress on it and that it faces delayed mortality as a result is complete nonsense. at what point does it become ridiculous folks? | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32884 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I don't know, Sled. Maybe this fellow can point to some literature that supports his stance. Facts are usually written down somewhere, and Bill says he didn't write them. Links, Bill, please. | ||
| BILL |
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| References Thomas Betka, MD, BS (Aquatic Biology) Medical Director, Hyperbaric Medicine & Wound Care, Aurora Baycare Medical Center, Green Bay, Wisconsin. It's common knowledge in Illinois and other muskie states that warm summer time water and over playing the fish can cause death if proper release tactics and care is not taken... It's a scientific fact and documented. There are many articles about this and I would suggest you do some research instead of making up your own reality. I don't fish for muskies in the summer because there's too great of chance of killing the muskie. | |||
| Almost-B-Good |
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Posts: 433 Location: Cedarburg, Wisconsin | Tell me how you measure stress in a fish without inducing stress much greater than what the fish already had. This I have to know. Deep water stresses fish? Fish live in deep water and there is no way they would live where they are stressed if there was a more comfortable choice. It's cooler in shallow water? Not since I've been fishing it hasn't. I garantee if you will do a temperature profile the deeper you go the cooler it gets not the opposite way around except on the great lakes where there is an upwelling from wind driven currents and we aren't talking great lakes here. It is a scientific fact, the cooler water sinks and the warmer water rises. No exceptions until you get below 39.4 degrees. I've caught fish that stayed on the surface after release in water temps down to the 40 degree range and it had no relation to the time I fought the fish or the depth at which it was caught. Each fish is different. Why they do it, only the fish know and they aren't talking. It is also common knowlege that scientific data has to be correctly interpreted and that misinterpreted facts can lead to ridiculous conclusions. | ||
| sled |
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| Tom may have stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night but the <10' release ... are you saying he's the father of that legislation? Tom?, Bill needs you. Bill, there are times you should consider punting on 2nd down. | |||
| esoxfly |
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Posts: 1663 Location: Kodiak, AK | BILL - 8/3/2010 6:38 AM References Thomas Betka, MD, BS (Aquatic Biology) Medical Director, Hyperbaric Medicine & Wound Care, Aurora Baycare Medical Center, Green Bay, Wisconsin. It's common knowledge in Illinois and other muskie states that warm summer time water and over playing the fish can cause death if proper release tactics and care is not taken... It's a scientific fact and documented. There are many articles about this and I would suggest you do some research instead of making up your own reality. I don't fish for muskies in the summer because there's too great of chance of killing the muskie. That's nothing new "Bill." That's common knowledge everywhere. Not a single person here has any issue with the fact that temps are warmer in the summer and care should be taken. People are taking issue with some of the specific statements you're making, that quite honestly don't hold much water. So you don't need to try to keep selling us on the fact that you're the most ethical muskie guy here who won't fish during the summer time because it's just killing muskies. You've mentioned that more than once, and you're certainly not the only guy not fishing right now for the sake of the fish. Relax a bit, and address some of the speicific isssues Sled, Steve and others are taking issue with. | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32884 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'It's common knowledge in Illinois and other muskie states that warm summer time water and over playing the fish can cause death if proper release tactics and care is not taken... It's a scientific fact and documented. There are many articles about this and I would suggest you do some research instead of making up your own reality. I don't fish for muskies in the summer because there's too great of chance of killing the muskie.' I believe I've done the research. Lots...and lots of it. I have been speaking and writing about the effects of lactic acid on fish and resulting mortality for about 35 years. Tom's piece wasn't the first on the subject, and won't be the last. He posts here quite a bit and has published a considerable volume of information here and referenced much of it on the Research Forum associated with his conservation efforts, more on the Green Bay fishery than other issues. Tom is a regular here and a great guy...pretty good muskie fisherman, too. I think the knee replacements have slowed him down quite a bit and lately he hasn't called. The issue is the blanket statements you have made that don't mesh well with reality. Not that fishing muskies in very warm water isn't a bad idea (we pretty much all all already know that, it isn't big news). It's not anywhere near as severe as you insinuate, Bill, as 'Summer' water temps can be as low as 67 degrees here, and as high as 80; and there's the issue of water column temps...many times 2' down under the 78 degree surface temps, it's 70 or less. Nowhere else on the planet has 'proper handling' of muskies at ANY time been discussed more than right here, and that is a fact. Your point is well taken, but the sky isn't falling and the rest of us are not under educated boors. You are trying to preach to a pretty well informed choir, Bill. | ||
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