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| http://www.startribune.com/local/91716694.html?elr=KArksLckD8EQDUoa...
This should be fun! |
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Posts: 265
Location: McGuire AFB, NJ | Good let them fish! Anyone who knows a little background on how the American goverment handled Native Americans knows quite often...they got the short end of the stick.
For those of you who think there doing this soley for the fish...you might want to reconsider, here's why...
They WANT to get arrested, becuase when they do they then can sue the U.S. Govt for doing so. i.e. not adhering the the treaty in question.
It's a smart play, and to be quite honest other cases just like this one show that the Gov't will loose. But its just a small price to pay for...i'll just stop there.
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| Well the people the "native" Americans kicked out before them got an even shorter end of the stick, just the way it goes. Id say theyve got it pretty good now, when money gets short throw up another casino....better than what those before the current tribes got.... |
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| Ignore them and they will go away! They are looking to get paid and I hope the state of Minnesota doesn't get goaded into it. If and when they bring a lawsuit it will have to be dealt with until then don't engage in their childish antics! There numbers where what 30,000. How many of those will be taking part in this show of solidarity. The numbers are insignificant. |
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Posts: 697
Location: Minnetonka | Sure, let them fish... I agree... "short end" from way back... yes, they're doing it to make a statement. However if MN law enforcement looks the other way and allows tribes break one of the stated regulations that have been previously adhered to, then what's to stop them ignoring other laws as they see fit? Their hands are tied and I'm glad I'm not the one calling the shots here. Good luck to those involved.  |
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Posts: 23
| This is b.s. I love the way they pick and choose parts of the treaty the want. I heard (true or not I don't know) that it also says that if more than 3 are of the rez, that constitutes a war party. If true I say we make them live by that to. |
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| Peaceful civil disobedience as political demonstration is a cornerstone of this country's history, especially in the areas of rights.
People can freely disagree on the issues, but it's good to see the tribes in question acting openly to reduce the potential conflict or violence that has occured in other places in the past.
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I suggest you learn what rights those treaties actually do grant to tribes before posting anything negative. Wisconsin's tribes went all the way to the Supreme Court and won easily; a Treaty is a Treaty and Government can't arbitrarily decide when they will or won't abide by the agreements without consequence. Look at the history of the Wisconsin court cases and how those started with some Walleyes out of NW Wisconsin.
All the racist, ignorant behavior we saw in WI during that court battle was unbelievable and accomplished absolutely nothing. This one is for the Courts, and I'm betting that's exactly where this will go, with clear precedent in Wisconsin guiding the way. I agree with the last post by 'Rosa', and a couple others here; and hope that the folks in MN are wise enough to work WITH the Tribes out of the chute, the alternative wasn't pretty for us in WI. |
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| Yeah, yeah right......owe the Indian people of today something because of what happed to thier great, great, great grandfather 150-200 years ago. Just like we owe the African American community a free ride because of the slave trade market of 200 years ago. Come on.......that was then, this is now. We're all in this together today, folks. heck, I think I'm half Indian or something like that. But I'm living by the same rules as all other AMERICANS. |
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Like it or not, treaties are Federal LAW, are completely enforceable and will be to the letter if the Tribe chooses to go there. It isn't 'owe', it's what was negotiated between those governments in writing and how it holds up in Court now. Seriously, read up on the WI Treaty issues and the resulting court decisions.
The law we all follow is pretty much based on what happened to YOUR great great grandfather hundreds of years ago. |
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Posts: 1202
Location: Money, PA | Simple solution....if they live off the land and rely soley on fish and game for food; the laws shouldn't apply to them, as long as they hunt their quarry as they once did when there were no laws....AND give EVERYONE that same opportunity....AMISH, INDIAN, BLACK, WHITE whomever. But as soon as they choose to live the modern life with modern amenities, the laws must apply. Just see how many would do it and what little effect it would make on the fishery and game. If they have that choice to live like they once lived, they will have no right to complain. Now, will it ever happen? NOPE!
Edited by ShutUpNFish 4/22/2010 10:00 AM
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Posts: 38
| Guest - 4/22/2010 9:30 AM
Yeah, yeah right......owe the Indian people of today something because of what happed to thier great, great, great grandfather 150-200 years ago. Just like we owe the African American community a free ride because of the slave trade market of 200 years ago. Come on.......that was then, this is now. We're all in this together today, folks. heck, I think I'm half Indian or something like that. But I'm living by the same rules as all other AMERICANS.
This is one of the most short sided / racist comments I have ever seen on a forum.
I grew up in South Dakota, and have spent signifigant amounts of time on both the PineRidge and Crow Creek Reservations. Pine Ridge is one of the poorest counties in America! We raped these people, we took there land and outlawed there religion, they were grranted certain things via treaty and they deserve all that and more.
Let me know when your ready for a field trip, I will take you and show you poverty you had no idea existed in this country. Spend a few days on "the res" and you will see how much of a privilaged white boy you really are. |
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | What's at issue is a TREATY BETWEEN GOVERNMENTS,the rights within CANNOT be taken away by anyone, and the Supreme Court has confirmed this time and time again. Since the MN tribes entered into treaties that may differ from those in WI, all depends on how each reads. if the Tribe feels they have a good enough case to go ahead and exercise those rights they probably are correct....we'll see.
We share the resource with the Tribes here in WI, and after they harvest what they wish each year (TAC) our DNR sets limits on the lakes in the Ceded Territories to protect the fish populations from over harvest. The Tribes negotiate the TAC, and they don't negotiate with sportsmen...they negotiate with the Government. Look up Chippewa Government Sovereignty, it's interesting.
That opportunity you speak of is the Tribes RIGHT governed by their councils, and is our PRIVILEGE governed by our DNR in the Ceded Territories.
http://ncseonline.org/nae/docs/chippewa.html
read this one:
http://www.mnchippewatribe.org/a_brief_history.htm
here's the tribe who's members were pivotal in the WI actions leading to the agreements we have today.
http://redcliff-nsn.gov/Government/history.htm
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Posts: 193
Location: Mayer, MN | promod1385 - 4/22/2010 10:03 AM
Guest - 4/22/2010 9:30 AM
Yeah, yeah right......owe the Indian people of today something because of what happed to thier great, great, great grandfather 150-200 years ago. Just like we owe the African American community a free ride because of the slave trade market of 200 years ago. Come on.......that was then, this is now. We're all in this together today, folks. heck, I think I'm half Indian or something like that. But I'm living by the same rules as all other AMERICANS.
This is one of the most short sided / racist comments I have ever seen on a forum.
I grew up in South Dakota, and have spent signifigant amounts of time on both the PineRidge and Crow Creek Reservations. Pine Ridge is one of the poorest counties in America! We raped these people, we took there land and outlawed there religion, they were grranted certain things via treaty and they deserve all that and more.
Let me know when your ready for a field trip, I will take you and show you poverty you had no idea existed in this country. Spend a few days on "the res" and you will see how much of a privilaged white boy you really are.
Then you know what, it sounds like it might be time to leave the reservation. Here is a novel idea, evolve! My family, my great grandparents were dirt poor hillbillies from West Virginia (Appalachian Americans), worked the coal mines. That went south so my grand father, who was working the mine sought opportunity and moved his wife and all of his children to IN where he made a better life for himself. My dad finished high school, maybe the first of our family. I followed in my father's foot steps graduated high school and went on to a University, first in our family and earned a degree. I moved out of IN and moved to MN to give myself and my children more opportunities, due to the economic decline I witnessed. You cannot help people that do not wish to help themselves, this goes for all races and ethnic groups! This is America, land of opportunity. |
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Posts: 1202
Location: Money, PA | Since when has evolution been about getting a degree so you can make more money to buy more STUFF? Getting a degree and having a high paying job may not be some people's idea of success. If people are perfectly content with living simple, off the land and without relying on government and laws to dictate their lives; why are they denied that right? How can a country deem itself free? This nation has re-defined the word freedom and obviously/sadly redifined the meaning of success. |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | lots of luck - 4/22/2010 12:24 PM
promod1385 - 4/22/2010 10:03 AM
Guest - 4/22/2010 9:30 AM
Yeah, yeah right......owe the Indian people of today something because of what happed to thier great, great, great grandfather 150-200 years ago. Just like we owe the African American community a free ride because of the slave trade market of 200 years ago. Come on.......that was then, this is now. We're all in this together today, folks. heck, I think I'm half Indian or something like that. But I'm living by the same rules as all other AMERICANS.
This is one of the most short sided / racist comments I have ever seen on a forum.
I grew up in South Dakota, and have spent signifigant amounts of time on both the PineRidge and Crow Creek Reservations. Pine Ridge is one of the poorest counties in America! We raped these people, we took there land and outlawed there religion, they were grranted certain things via treaty and they deserve all that and more.
Let me know when your ready for a field trip, I will take you and show you poverty you had no idea existed in this country. Spend a few days on "the res" and you will see how much of a privilaged white boy you really are.
Then you know what, it sounds like it might be time to leave the reservation. Here is a novel idea, evolve! My family, my great grandparents were dirt poor hillbillies from West Virginia (Appalachian Americans ), worked the coal mines. That went south so my grand father, who was working the mine sought opportunity and moved his wife and all of his children to IN where he made a better life for himself. My dad finished high school, maybe the first of our family. I followed in my father's foot steps graduated high school and went on to a University, first in our family and earned a degree. I moved out of IN and moved to MN to give myself and my children more opportunities, due to the economic decline I witnessed. You cannot help people that do not wish to help themselves, this goes for all races and ethnic groups! This is America, land of opportunity.
You clearly aren't in the market for a new job. The "opportunity" you speak of is pretty limited these days. Please feel free to explain how someone living in great poverty is supposed to set themselves apart in a job market loaded with people with Master's or higher educational background and loads of work experience (yet even they are unemployed). Maybe you were just looking for a pat on the back because you went to a "University" and earned a degree? Many applause to you oh great achiever. |
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Posts: 639
Location: Hudson, WI | I understand that the treaties were made and should be upheld. But there are "certain political groups" in this country that have no problem reinterpreting and changing the U.S. Constitution, yet these outdated treaties are iron clad? Oh, because it's a minority group. I thought the movements that changed this country were for EQUALITY, not preferred treatment.
By the way, lot of tough talk coming from the Ojibwe as they pull into the meetings in $40,000 vehicles. Weren't the Native Americans the only indigenous group in the world to never have discovered metal? |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Moltisanti - 4/22/2010 1:11 PM
I understand that the treaties were made and should be upheld. But there are "certain political groups" in this country that have no problem reinterpreting and changing the U.S. Constitution, yet these outdated treaties are iron clad? Oh, because it's a minority group. I thought the movements that changed this country were for EQUALITY, not preferred treatment.
By the way, lot of tough talk coming from the Ojibwe as they pull into the meetings in $40,000 vehicles. Weren't the Native Americans the only indigenous group in the world to never have discovered metal?
Do some of you people realize that the tribes are their own sovereign nations? Equality of the US has nothing to do with their tribes, hence the treaties.
Also what in the world does discovering metal have to do with anything? Maybe you were just trying to show off how racist you really are? |
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Posts: 265
Location: McGuire AFB, NJ | WOW! The un-educated ill informed have risen! Sworall well sair my friend, I knew my post would boil the blood of some but owell. Fact of the matter is if you really want to get down to the nitty gritty the way in which our great great grandfathers treaty the native americans can be decribed as genocide. And for all of who would like a defention...here's NATO"S
Article II of the 1948 U.N. Convention on Genocide states the following
:
"In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts
committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national,
ethnical, racial or religious group as such:
(a) killing members of the group;
(b) causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated
to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
There's some food for thought! Do a little research bout the subject before you post anymore racist comments. Facts are facts. I say LET EM FISH! |
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Posts: 639
Location: Hudson, WI | Mike, if Native Americans want to govern themselves and live as a separate nation, that's fine. But sticking to age old treaties that are not beneficial to the shared resource should be up for discussion and always changing for the benefit of both sides. And definitely not handled by a blantant affront to the State of Minnesota.
As far as the metal thing, my point was that when it comes to traditional harvest, the equipment, transportation, methods and actual usage of the fish or animal can change. After all, this is 2010! But oh no, don't touch that treaty right! |
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Posts: 203
Location: Germantown, WI | I have to agree with Steve and the others about the tribes' treaty rights. I may not like the fact that tribes can spear walleyes and muskies, but I have no inherent legal right to fish either. I can fish because the state grants me the priviledge of fishing as long as I abide by the laws and buy a license. Whether we like it or not the treaties that were signed between the US govt and the tribes are binding legal treaties which the govt is obligated to uphold. Whether I agree that what seemed fair in 1850 seems fair today is not the point. Were all the treaties fair to the tribes? I am sure they were not. Did the tribes voluntarily enter into the treaties in the first place or were they coerced by threat of deadly force? What tribe members the US govt did not kill, we forced onto lands that the govt did not want at the time. If some tribe members choose to live in the modern world and assimilate with eveyone else good for them. If others choose to live on the reservation that is their right.
We would do far better to approach managment of natural resources in cooperation with the tribes rather than in competition. There will be some disagreements, but in many cases there is plenty of common ground. It is in all of our interests to put the resource first and share the use of that resource. Blaming the tribes for all or even most of the problems associated with fisheries management is a distraction from doing the things that can and should be done to protect our fisheries.
I'm sure that some tribe members take positions on this issue out of spite as much as anything else, but I can hardly blame them for that. There is plenty of spite and hatred on the other side too. |
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Posts: 8865
| There's a big difference between a "right" and a "priveledge"...
Ceded territory is just that, and the agreement between tribal governments and the US government is one that will stand long before we are gone. You don't have to like it, most of us don't. But keep something in mind: If we fail to recognize the rights native Americans have to the resources we think we own? What's to stop them from taking those areas back? |
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Posts: 1030
Location: APPLETON, WI | I, like most of you, completely understand the treaty. I understand why they were put in place WHEN they were put into place. But that doesn't mean in 2010 that I have to agree with them. And at this point, I don't. *shrug* I guess if that makes me a rascist... so be it. These so-called Native Americans insisting we respect their beloved treaty aren't exactly "living off the land" in this day and age.
I call it like I see it. I lived in Minnesota for ten years before moving to Wisconsin... and while that may not make me an expert on the subject, I've seen enough. |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Moltisanti - 4/22/2010 1:37 PM
Mike, if Native Americans want to govern themselves and live as a separate nation, that's fine. But sticking to age old treaties that are not beneficial to the shared resource should be up for discussion and always changing for the benefit of both sides. And definitely not handled by a blantant affront to the State of Minnesota.
As far as the metal thing, my point was that when it comes to traditional harvest, the equipment, transportation, methods and actual usage of the fish or animal can change. After all, this is 2010! But oh no, don't touch that treaty right!
My guess is you fish out of a boat, have a high powered real, sonar etc? Save your lecture about netting or spearing out of dugout canoes etc. The 'evolve' argument can't only go for the white man. The Chinese and Japanese have made huge strides in technology, not the white man. Should they be asking us to give up their advancements. No, that's ludicrous.
The age old treaties may not be beneficial to you but I'm willing to bet you have absolutely no proof that they are not beneficial to the Native Americans. You want their treaties adjusted to fit the white man's definition of what they want. You want to 'get' but are unwilling to give anything. |
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Posts: 1516
| They have the right to net fish you have the right NOT to set foot in their casinos. |
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| AFC Chris, it seems like you are truly outraged by this subject.
Maybe you would care to inform the group of what you have personally done to better the life of Native Americans. My guess is your contributions to their betterment include living in a nice house, in a nice neighborhood full of nice schools on lands that were once occupied by Native Americans. Maybe instead of having others think before they talk you should take some of your own advise.
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| Wow, all the ignorance here is just incredible. Everyone who is sitting here talking about this, with the exception of a few, should really go pick up a book. The state has absolutely no right to stop these people from doing what a FEDERAL TREATY grants them the rights to do. Pretty sure about 150 years ago there was this big thing about states rights and the federal governments ability to govern these states. The Civil War? Sound familiar.
With that being said, do any of you actually have stats on the number of Native Americans that are going to be participating in this? Check out the numbers. The amount of fish taken each year by these people is such a fraction of the total number that it should not be an issue. Do you guys feel, I don't know, slighted because they get to do something that you dont? Get over it. Life isn't fair. Its the same reason that same families have been runnning this country for the past 100 years.
As for the guy saying that if they want to be able to do this, they should completely living off the land, are you kidding me? Yeah I totally agree, its a completely viable option. "Hey dad, all of the animals keep moving west." "That's fine son, we'll just keep following them so that we can live solely off the land. Oh wait, we just ran into Minneapolis? Oh Darn!"
This does have to do with racism, but its mostly just due to ignorance. guys
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Posts: 639
Location: Hudson, WI | Pointerpride102 - 4/22/2010 2:08 PM
The age old treaties may not be beneficial to you but I'm willing to bet you have absolutely no proof that they are not beneficial to the Native Americans. You want their treaties adjusted to fit the white man's definition of what they want. You want to 'get' but are unwilling to give anything.
You'll have to forgive me, since this hits home, but you mean like "give" my money and efforts into helping make Bone Lake a quality musky fishery and "get"ting it speared into a desert? How was that beneficial to the tribes or anyone in the long run?
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | this one is like watchin a train wreck ...
carry on fellas |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Moltisanti - 4/22/2010 2:32 PM
Pointerpride102 - 4/22/2010 2:08 PM
The age old treaties may not be beneficial to you but I'm willing to bet you have absolutely no proof that they are not beneficial to the Native Americans. You want their treaties adjusted to fit the white man's definition of what they want. You want to 'get' but are unwilling to give anything.
You'll have to forgive me, since this hits home, but you mean like "give" my money and efforts into helping make Bone Lake a quality musky fishery and "get"ting it speared into a desert? How was that beneficial to the tribes or anyone in the long run?
The tribes spear fish and receive fish from it. Who forced you to "give" your money to help make Bone a quality musky fishery? Plenty of other lakes that could use the help that don't get speared. You're generous donations have given the Native Americans fish to spear so you could take that as your satisfaction. Every year you donate you help the tribes "in the long run." |
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