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| Just read an article that was based on the idea that fewer Muskies were being caught in a particular lake because they had become "educated" to the lures that were being used a lot. Hmmm...
What do you think...do Muskies really remember lures they’ve been caught on? If so, is it only for a short while or for a long while? Do they remember shapes only, or color too? How good is their memory and power of reasoning really? (Whoa...I remember getting nailed by that white double-bladed lure a few days back. I'm not falling for that again!!!) Or...are they just driven by instinct the majority of the time, and strike whatever comes into their field of vision when the bite is “on”?
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Posts: 1237
Location: South Portsmouth, KY | After seein a fish hit a lure then loose the fish and while your reelin it in and its hits again on the 8 druing the same cast i w ould say that their memory sucks! People tend to overthink these fish. |
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Posts: 8824
| I'd put them somewhere between Cheech and Ozzy... |
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| Fish do posses the ability to associate a bad experience to a particular place or vibration.
This seems more prevalent with fish that have been recaptured over time and most prevalent in dominant fish.
They do learn avoidance in my observations |
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| Just an added note,it must occur within the same year
From one year to the next they forget
Avoidance of vibrations can be sustained for one year to another,especially high pitch or frequency vibrations |
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Posts: 2361
| Marc Thorpe - 1/15/2010 5:25 AM
Fish do posses the ability to associate a bad experience to a particular place or vibration.
This seems more prevalent with fish that have been recaptured over time and most prevalent in dominant fish.
They do learn avoidance in my observations
I concur, though I am not sure what the sequence of events might be that leads to avoidance. I am guessing some muskies are the pheasants that slip out the far side of the hayfield about the time they hear a truck door slam. |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | I'm certain conditioned response has been discussed on here before. A search would probably yeild plenty of reading on the ability to learn vs. conditioning. |
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Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Muskies do not possess frontal lobes. Their brain is pretty basic, and very small. In short, kinda dumb.
As far as 'memory' as we know it, I wouldn't worry about it too much. A negative association has to happen so many times to condition the fish it isn't very likely.
I tend to look at what response the stimulus (lure and total footprint) I'm presenting overall, big picture. I've recaptured dozens of tagged muskies over the years, some multiple times in a year on the same presentation. As far as sensitivity and avoidance to a particular frequency of vibration, keep in mind the slightest change in about a hundred variables will change that vibration, so it's not as common as one might think that a fish is exposed to the same exact footprint.
Look into stimulus/response with a creature as absolutely stone stupid as a fish and draw your own conclusions. Why do some lures start out so hot, and then follow a predictable curve down ro 'average' in the caught fish catagory?
In a nutshell, the first time the fish is exposed to the footprint, all things considered, the strongest response. Hence, a totally new and well designed footprint will be 'hot' until there are so many of that particular footprint presented the thing becomes part of the landscape, so to speak....at which time one needs to look at conditions and location RE: the likelihood of a sought after response.
Way oversimplified, but my 2 cents. |
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| A 'heady' answer, Mr. Worrall. Seems like a good subject to be sharp on. (Helps in explaining to the wife why we need to keep buying new lures. )  |
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Posts: 253
Location: On the water | You would think muskies would have become educated to a black bucktail with silver blade by now!!! |
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Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | I agree that it is more of a conditioning response than anything. As far as lures go, my best lures five and ten years ago are still my best lures.
I believe that fish do get turned off when a particular lure is over-used on a body of water for an extended period of time. On my favorite lake, the affectiveness of large lures appears to have dropped way off as they have been used heavily for several years now. While at the same time, many of the more standard lures have continued to produce at the same or even higher rates. I believe this is because the standard lures became the less-used lure and were actually something different.
Anyone who has been fishing with me knows that a CJs spinner bait of some type will be on at least one of my rods at all times. What has been interesting is how our productivity with those spinner baits went up when everyone else started throwing the big baits. For many years, we averaged about one Muskie every 6-8 hours in my boat. Three years ago, when the big lure craze hit, our average spiked up to one Muskie every 3.5 hours of fishing. Two years ago it slowed slightly to one fish every 4 hours of fishing, but with a 45 inch average, and last year it returned to a more normal one fish per 5 hours of fishing. What is interesting is that as we stayed with our standard baits, our productivity seemed to go up and down relative to what others were throwing and returned to more normal levels after more people returned to more standard type lures.
Do fish have a memory? I doubt it, but they do get conditioned. For me, a key to catching more Muskies is observing what others are doing and then doing something different. And often times "something different" is what you have been doing successfully for years.
I am now hoping for another "hot" lure this year for the masses to jump on.
Edited by Herb_b 1/15/2010 10:09 AM
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Posts: 550
Location: So. Illinois | I think muskies think with their stomach. The hungrier they are, the dumber they are. I'vee seen a couple that were almost suicidal. My belief is that memory plays an insignificant part.
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Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | AFC, Right on
Dumb as dirt, they are....Conditioned to some point......Untill their hungry.
Stupid Fish !
Jerome |
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Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | Yeah, Muskies can act very stupidly when they are hungry and will sometimes hit anything. But those times when Muskies are super active are the exception and not the rule.
My experience is that Muskies are in a neutral or negative mood most of the time. That is when conditioning has the greatest affect and that is when it helps to be aware of what the fish may be the most conditioned to. A "different" presentation then will often have the best chance of inducing a strike. Sometimes it takes a different lure or just a different color. Sometimes it takes a change in speed - slower or faster. And sometimes it takes putting that lure right in their face to trigger a response bite. But, it almost always takes something different than what everyone else on the lake is doing.
I had a lot of fun a couple of years ago following boats that were throwing nothing but big bucktails. I would throw a small to mid sized spinner bait and would often get Muskies to eat when the big bucktails produced only follows. Why? The fish saw a lot more big bucktails than smaller spinner baits and the spinner baits ran deeper and so were more likely to trigger a response strike. A couple people got really ticked at me after I caught fish behind them, but they had first crack at the fish. 
My experience is that while Muskies may hit anything on a given day, less used or "different" lures will often produce more fish over a period of time than the popular "hot" lures that everyone else is throwing.
Edited by Herb_b 1/15/2010 12:06 PM
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Posts: 540
| Yah I would agree with getting conditioned and also muskies being more neutral and negative most of the time too! I try to fish lakes that are less pressured and alot of time alll I will get is follows from curouis fish more than anything else that has no intention of feeding or I am doing something wrong, wich I think has alot to do with it but I try to keep up with different styles of new baits alot too. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Explain what you mean by 'conditioned to', please. |
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| It's my belief that over time, muskies get used to seeing lures on heavily pressured waters, and unless they are actively feeding and chasing anything that moves? You'll be far less likely to catch them than you would on unpressured waters. I think it becomes something that's just part of the environment to them.
Fish can certainly be conditioned to various types if stimuli. Anyone with a fish tank can tell you that the fish know when you are about to feed them. But let's not forget -- they're fish. Not a whole lot going on upstairs except the biological drive to eat, reproduce and the instict to avoid becoming prey.
Obviuosly, whatever conditioning that takes place when you catch them either doesn;t last very long, or doesnt happen often enough, because if it did you'd bever see them caught more than once.
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| You can train a goldfish to shoot hoops and play fetch, through positive reinforcement
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hdTb3ZMsYA
So I think negative reinforcement like say having 7/0 rammed through your head might just do it as well. |
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| Any aquarium fish ,after a short period of time are able to know where they can swim and where they cant
they just have to break their nose into the glass a couple of time,its unpleasant for them and then they will magically stop.
So if a big musky have been caught several time on a lets say a 10 inch jailbird believer what its going to happen next time he saw one near his mouth? |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | She'd probably eat it. |
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| We saw a training video at work regarding positive and negative re-enforcement. The researchers in the video were performing studies and brought in a Northern Pike from Minnesota and placed it in a tank filled with water. Then they put minnows in a clear glass tube and lowered it into the water. The northern was hungry and kept ramming the glass tube to try and eat the minnows it could see, but the glass prevented the Northern from eating the minnows. After many attempts the Northern finally stopped trying to eat them. After a while they removed the tube and let the minnows swim free. The minnows swam right in front of the Northern but the Pike did not even attempt to eat them. The Northern finally starved to death with minnows swimming all aroung it and it did not try to eat them. Made me wonder how that type of behavior modification would translate to fish hitting lures. |
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Location: Watertown, MN | Larry Dahlberg did a great seminar about that, and that he searches for the "mothers milk" in the lake. What is the baitfish of choice, and he stated that they do get conditioned to positive and negative experiences, they cannot reason on why but understand it was not a good experience, just like when a kid places their hand on hot stove, they don't know why it is hot, just bad. So bait that closely resemble the same freq/vibration as food, will get bit. Immitate mother nature, simplicity.
Troyz |
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| I know some people on here are saying that muskies do not get conditioned. I agree that they aren't the smartest creatures around but to say that after getting caught they aren't harder to catch for some time period is just plain wrong in my opinion. Where are you guys fishing? Hitting a bait and spitting is not the same as being netted and captured in my opinion. A fish that tasted hook briefly will come back on a bait and eat again sometimes. But a fish caught, netted and photographed is unlikely to be fooled again for a while.
John |
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| sworrall - 1/16/2010 9:27 AM
She'd probably eat it.
wrong answer |
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Posts: 8824
| stidecave - 1/16/2010 12:46 PM
sworrall - 1/16/2010 9:27 AM
She'd probably eat it.
wrong answer
In order for any sort of conditioning to actually stick, it has to be re-enforced again and again, and very often. I don't believe that one negative experience, or even a handful is going to change a muskie's behavior, and certainly not going to leave a lasting impression from one season to the next. It takes longer than that to train your dog.
I can see where it's easy to think you've just conditioned a fish when you've had once chase a lure a few times and then you don't see it again. But then if you think a little further into that, there's probably other things going on. 1. It's used up its energy and now isn't moving 2. It was actively feeding, and during that time it managed to catch a meal 3. It has moved on
I will say this, though: I used to fish in the Madison area almost exclusively. Pressured fish, for sure. Lots of lures flying around, day in and day out... I do not recall EVER seeing the same fish follow more than once. Follows were pretty common, but if they didn't eat the first time? That was the last you saw of them that day.
On the other hand, when fishing in Canada? There have been many times where I raised the same fish a couple times before I actually caught it. I had the same fish up 13 different times over the course of a few days, in fact. NEVER seen that happen in the urban fisheries down here.
food |
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| The difference between understanding a negative experience and how fish relate to it, is dependent on the number of days one fish's and your sample population a yearly capture rates,not factored is high fishing pressure which also adds.
Over the years I have sampled and observed enough to draw conclusion to avoidance and why it occurs .
Yes areas can be sterilized to the point of avoidance from resident fish or complete vacancy of the area and relocation.
They can associate a bad experience to certain vibrations within the same year and one year to the next with high frequency lures,thus avoidance is instilled.
One bait ,one year syndrome
I do agree agree under the right conditions fish will commit a mistake once again.
Everything pertains to frequency
Its also individualistic traits but certain frequencies can effect populations over time also.
factor in all vibrations Emmit from a boat,motor,electric motor,vibrations from movements in the boats and high frequency lures.
For any living animal,it must learn the basics of survival which is learned from negative experiences
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| amen to that |
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Posts: 2361
| Some are confusing conditioning to what might better be termed attenuation or extinction, ie the idea that it takes something novel to get a response from the fish. I don't agree with that at all, and in fact I believe there is research showing that the best response takes some actual familiarity and recognition. All this aside, I don;t believe either treats musky memory. Nor does either speak to what M. Thorpe is talking about.
I believe some fish associate bad things with fishing boats, people, shiny balding heads, whatever, and do make various responses that in the end, avoid contact with whatever ques they associate with danger, or insecurity(such as it is for a fish). I also believe some fish are naturally more wary than others and may never have had a particular experience that was negative, they simply avoid the whole boat approach thing on an instinctual basis.
That fish don't have rudimetary learning associated with negative stimuli has never been proved, imo.
Experiments have shown that they do learn avoidance. Experiments also show that natural wariness can be selected
for and show selection pressure in relatively few generations. (IL bass experiment).
One fish being dumb as a box of rocks doesn't mean the finding can be generalized to ALL FISH. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'Some are confusing conditioning to what might better be termed attenuation or extinction, ie the idea that it takes something novel to get a response from the fish.'
I'm certainly not.
'I don't agree with that at all, and in fact I believe there is research showing that the best response takes some actual familiarity and recognition' With that, I'd disagree.
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Posts: 32922
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'Some are confusing conditioning to what might better be termed attenuation or extinction, ie the idea that it takes something novel to get a response from the fish.'
I'm certainly not.
'I don't agree with that at all, and in fact I believe there is research showing that the best response takes some actual familiarity and recognition'
With that, I'd disagree.
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