Posted 12/8/2009 12:00 AM (#411458) Subject: How to fight a muskie??
Location: Northern Wisconsin
After some thought and reflection on the season I noticed I lost a lot of fish during the fight. They would be hooked for a while and end up turning quickly to go on a run or jumping and tossing the bait. I know its part of musky fishing but what are some ways to cut down on lost fish?
I noticed after doing lots of small mouth fishing that there are some tricks that can help keep small mouth from changing direction and jumping, which results in more fish caught. I find that the more the fish jumps and darts back and forth the more fish are lost. It seems if you can keep them from jumping and keep their mouth facing you there are less lost fish.
I haven't caught enough muskies to play around with things like this so for you those of you who have caught a lot of musky what are some tricks/ methods that an be helpful in fighting a musky?
Posted 12/8/2009 12:16 AM (#411460 - in reply to #411458) Subject: Re: How to fight a muskie??
Posts: 553
Location: 15 miles east of Lake Kinkaid
I am no self proclaimed expert...but "initiating the fight" as Joe Bucher has been writing about for years is extremely important. So many fish immediately come up and shake their heads above water after being hooked....and this is where lots of fish are lost. I know I lost a good fish because I allowed this to happen.... "Inititiating the fight" means burying your rod in the water and cranking (even though it is not easy) to keep the fish under the water. Air has much less resistance than water...and muskies therefore have LOTS more leverage shaking a heavy bait.
Also, "thumbing" or using pressure from your thumb when the reel is in freespool can help to avoid bending out lighter wire hooks and also pulling hooks on surging fish. My buddy AFchris did this yesterday on a fish very nicely, and it reminded of how of the importance of this technique.
Posted 12/8/2009 9:52 AM (#411492 - in reply to #411458) Subject: Re: How to fight a muskie??
Posts: 1456
Location: Kronenwetter, WI
I like the keep the fish down, in the water. Splashing fish often mean lost fish. Sometimes for me that means rod tip up, sometimes rod tip down. Depends on depth of water. Also depends on subsurface structure...rocks....barrier weeds, etc....what are they likely to get into if they run? One thing I like to do is avoid 'turning a fish...meaning if they are swimming one way, I do not like pulling the fish and make them do a 180...too much pressure. Instead, if I have a fish moving in one direction, i try to keep her going in that direction and have the net-man meet me 'down the road' the direction I have her heading.
Posted 12/8/2009 10:13 AM (#411504 - in reply to #411492) Subject: Re: How to fight a muskie??
Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI
If you are not doing what cowboyhanna says.... never letting a fish change directions..... you are losing fish. And if not yet..... you will lose the biggest fish of your life down the road for it (Murphy's Law). I have a great demonstration to illustrate this point... but its impossible to do via a message board.
Other suggestions to consider:
1. Don't let them go deep... especially close to the boat.
2. Rod tip low at the boat.
Here is a graphic to help you see how your line angle changes pending your rod position or fish location. Keep in mind, high line angles are dangerous (conditions in red).
Edited by jlong 12/8/2009 10:19 AM
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Posted 12/8/2009 10:27 AM (#411507 - in reply to #411504) Subject: Re: How to fight a muskie??
Posts: 32889
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
I let the fish swim a bit more than most, which tires the fish quickly and allows for better control. Subtle pressure can make a fish change directions if that's the goal, and the same subtle but steady pressure will keep 'em pinned when they want to go another direction and you can't convince them otherwise. Most of the time about half way through, I can make the fish change direction of swim when I want...they WILL follow the path of least resistance if you allow it. Forcing the fish causes them to resist that excess force, and you end up with a reaction that can result in a jump, thrashing, or spinning, in the attempt to avoid the pressure. If the fish seems to want to come up and possibly jump, I spin the rod pressure downward the opposite direction, and if the fish isn't a monster, it will usually follow the lead and go back down. That said, really big fish pretty much do what they want.
I rarely use the drag. I developed a habit of using the free spool and my thumb back when drags were sort of just there, and it's never let me down yet. Not something I'd recommend without some practice; but a good pike lake will provide plenty of that.
In the following video, you will see my thumb on the spool, and no hand on the reel handle, that's when I have the reel free spooled. It's so automatic now I don't think I could ever change it. I backreel spinning reels too, just force of habit.
Posted 12/8/2009 10:39 AM (#411510 - in reply to #411458) Subject: Re: How to fight a muskie??
Location: Contrarian Island
simple things noted above go a long way in not losing fish...keep them down, not head shaking or jumping, try not to turn them unless you know they are hooked very well...imo I err on the side of taking control of the fish as fast as possible and into the net at the 1st chance you can..having a good net man and really reading the fish at boatside makes it possible...imo the longer the fish is on, the higher % chance it's going to get off...I've seen a ton of fish lost and the majority were simply fought too long....big fish can be directed to the net...of course not all, as some are just nuts...but it's amazing how w/ the long rods and reels we have we can take control and get them to the net in a matter of seconds....
Edited by BNelson 12/8/2009 10:48 AM
Muskie Jesus
Posted 12/8/2009 10:47 AM (#411512 - in reply to #411458) Subject: RE: How to fight a muskie??
KEEP REELING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
fishbag
Posted 12/8/2009 11:00 AM (#411515 - in reply to #411458) Subject: Re: How to fight a muskie??
if you want to make a good release i highly suggest you to not tired the fish especially during hot summer time.just keep reeling,and tip up
Posted 12/8/2009 11:07 AM (#411518 - in reply to #411458) Subject: Re: How to fight a muskie??
Posts: 32889
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Any fight will tire the fish. A violent, thrashing fight with the fish bulled in across the surface and missed a couple times at the net will do more harm than a semi-controlled, easy battle to the net where you take control and lead the fish in. Just in case you were talking to me, I don't think I fight the fish longer...just 'better'.
ToddM
Posted 12/8/2009 12:38 PM (#411538 - in reply to #411458) Subject: RE: How to fight a muskie??
Noone can predict how a musky hits the bait and how it is hooked or how well your hookset was. Could be very well, could be very light and possibly not even in the mouth. I do what many have said. Rod goes in the water and I never, EVER use my drag. The easiest way to lose a fish is to let it headshake and dive against the drag. I am thumbing the fish all the way. I keep pressure to keep the line tight and bring the fish to the boat when it is not fighting. I do not feel it takes that much longer to fight a fish this way and many fish become unpinned in the net so it makes me wonder just how many I would have lost by using my drag and forcin ght fish. It takes patience to do it and sometimes I try and force them when I shouldn't and the fish usually wins.
Posted 12/8/2009 12:51 PM (#411540 - in reply to #411518) Subject: Re: How to fight a muskie??
Posts: 1169
Location: New Hope MN
sworrall - 12/8/2009 11:07 AM
Any fight will tire the fish. A violent, thrashing fight with the fish bulled in across the surface and missed a couple times at the net will do more harm than a semi-controlled, easy battle to the net where you take control and lead the fish in. Just in case you were talking to me, I don't think I fight the fish longer...just 'better'.
Not too mention a lively thrashing fish in the net can tear herself to shreds. I blinded one eye of a big pike a couple of years ago. Hooked in the mouth, but she thrashed around and stuck herself right in the eye. I felt terrible.
Anyway, there's always a balance. Not too hard/fast or too soft/slow.
Posted 12/8/2009 2:34 PM (#411560 - in reply to #411458) Subject: RE: How to fight a muskie??
When trolling again'st the wind or current and you connect on a Big Girl you need to turn the boat out to the side and get even with the fish so you both drift along in the fight,not back into the fish.
Posted 12/8/2009 3:04 PM (#411566 - in reply to #411458) Subject: Re: How to fight a muskie??
Posts: 8788
It's all about balance as far as I am concerned -- you have to be in control. No slack line, rod tip low so you can react with the rod as well as the reel, and you also have to let the fish make a run if it wants to, especially on bigger fish. That's why I don't keep my drag cranked down all the way. Sometimes you need to freespool and let them run, and just as quickly reel like a madman. I always lake sure I am standing in a way that I can quickly move to take one around the trolling motor, or run to the back of the boat. It's kind of like dancing I guess -- you're leading, but you're not the only one running the show...
I will try to fight the fish at a 90 degree angle, if that makes sense. What I mean is I lead them to the side, to avoid having one come right at me at all costs , or going directly away from me. That's where I've lost most of my fish, especially the big ones. Another thing that has cost me fish is setting the hook up on the figure 8 -- brings the fish up, head out of the water = bye fishy. So I try to set the hook more towards the side and be ready to take them down under the water if I have to. Head shakes are bad enough under water. You'd be amazed how far a fish can throw a lure if its head is out of the water!
I think what it comes down to, unfortunately, is you have to lose a few fish, and get a feel for what went wrong and how you could have prevented it.
Someone mentioned pike... This is something I have done the last several years: When I catch a pike, I play with them a while. I fight them, let them run, turn them, give them some line... It's good practice for fighting muskies, and you get the added benefit of not having to fart around with them if they do come off. Somehow, though, they never seem to come off, especially when it's under 40 degrees and your hands just started warming up from the last fish...
Jason, you lost me with your "load the gap not the barb" comment... What that mean?
Posted 12/8/2009 4:01 PM (#411578 - in reply to #411574) Subject: Re: How to fight a muskie??
Posts: 4266
I started doing some things years ago that I still do now. I started fishing muskies on a very deep, stepp-dropping lake, so every time that I set the hook, I automatically would kick the trolling motor on high and drag the fish to deeper water and loosen the slack enough that it could take line and I would fight the fish out in deeper unclutterd water, To this day I set the hook hard to the side and down and if the fish is heading to the top I'll fight it from my knees.
Another important point is when you are drifting in med-high winds, it's important not to over-run the fish or lrt it swim under the boat. Boat control during the fight is just as important as boat control any other time.
Beaver
Posted 12/8/2009 4:45 PM (#411592 - in reply to #411566) Subject: Re: How to fight a muskie??
Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI
esoxaddict - 12/8/2009 3:04 PM
Jason, you lost me with your "load the gap not the barb" comment... What that mean?
EA.... all I mean by that is to keep pulling the hook in the same direction as when it penetrated. If you let the fish change directions, you are now at risk of pulling the hook backwards (just like you would with a pliers to unhook the fish in the net).... and the only thing keeping the hook in place is the BARB.
Think of how the hook will "pivot" with the high line angle below vs. no pivot with the low line angle. With the high line angle... the only thing keeping the hook in place is the barb. With the low line angle the gap of the hook continues to push into the fish.
Edited by jlong 12/8/2009 4:49 PM
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(line angle.jpg)
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Posted 12/8/2009 5:03 PM (#411596 - in reply to #411592) Subject: Re: How to fight a muskie??
Posts: 299
Location: Nowheresville, MN
jlong - 12/8/2009 4:45 PM If you let the fish change directions, you are now at risk of pulling the hook backwards (just like you would with a pliers to unhook the fish in the net).... and the only thing keeping the hook in place is the BARB.
Jason, Above you said if you didn't let the fish change directions you would loose fish... I'm confused... I'm interested in this discussion since this year I began basically walking fish around the boat, several times if need be. I can't stand when they get to the boat and just wallow on the surface. I don't care what it takes, get them to swim. I'm sure this is an artifact of the inordinately diproportionate number of fish I have hooked boatside this past season than in past years.
Posted 12/8/2009 5:21 PM (#411599 - in reply to #411458) Subject: Re: How to fight a muskie??
Posts: 8788
Thanks, Jason. That makes sense.
I think it's also worth mentioning that you and your netman should be communicating along the way, so the netting process is one smooth motion, where you are pulling the fish up and into the net while the netman is pulling the net down and under the fish.
Posted 12/8/2009 6:45 PM (#411616 - in reply to #411458) Subject: Re: How to fight a muskie??
Posts: 1663
Location: Kodiak, AK
I've lost fish a couple of times when they try to go straight down, either at the boat or off the boat a bit. That scares me when I see a fish start to get vertical...
How many hooksets do you guys do? I'll always do at least two or three, possible more if I think I missed it when it hit, or the set was poor. I used to live by the rule of one good hookset and leave it, but had too many fish come unpinned. Now setting it two or three soild times, it seems to keep the fish on....and I fish 100% barbless.
Posted 12/8/2009 7:22 PM (#411620 - in reply to #411458) Subject: Re: How to fight a muskie??
Posts: 115
Location: Birch Run
Kind of hard to freespool some these big high speed reels with manual levers... You might find yourself cranking very easily while gaining any line LOL.
Posted 12/8/2009 7:32 PM (#411622 - in reply to #411458) Subject: Re: How to fight a muskie??
Posts: 8788
esoxfly... Unless I flat out missed the hookset or for whatever reason didn't get a solid hookset, I am of the opinion that one is enough. I think it's more important to keep pressure on the fish, line tight, and try not to give the fish a chance to get off. I think multiple hooksets actually cost people fish sometimes. If you've got the fish pinned the first time, a second hookset might just make the hole bigger, and a third is liable to rip the hooks free.
Granted, I've never really tried setting the hook more than once, so that's really just speculation, but it seems to me that one good hookset is all you would need, as long as your hooks are sharp anyway...
Interesting that you fish barbless. I would think a barbless hook would penetrate better, and negage the need for multiple hooksets. It's something I've been on the fence about for quite some time... Do you think it's costing you fish? Is the ease of unhooking fish (and possibly yourself) worth the occasional lost fish?
Posted 12/8/2009 8:16 PM (#411632 - in reply to #411458) Subject: RE: How to fight a muskie??
Posts: 20227
Location: oswego, il
JLong, I do not disagree with your assessments but how do you know from which angle every fish hits, especially the ones you do not see? I act is if every one is barely hooked.
If i were a musky though, I would get head up vertical and not stop headshaking in till the lure was free. I have had two fish do exactly that, taking over 30 seconds of just doing that non-stop, dislodging a well hooked bait.
Posted 12/8/2009 8:33 PM (#411637 - in reply to #411458) Subject: Re: How to fight a muskie??
Posts: 2361
Jason's advice is interesting, but can be inheritently difficult to execute if, like me, you are using big baits with three trebles in them and potentially 9 directions that hook can actually be buried, and unknown unless you see the fish on the hit, and then can still be somewhat of a question mark as to which hooks actually hooked up. I guess I will have to contemplate that for a while.
Capt Larry Jones gives what sounds like good advice for current situations, however wind situations are very different than current. Wind moves you in a direction. That muskie aint going anywhere. My slightly modified advice for the wind would be, to be aware of it, keep the trolling motor down, and stay in front of the boat if you are by yourself, and when you are getting into landing mode. swing your boat UPWIND from the fish. Being downwind during the early fight isn't going to hurt, since the wind induced movement of the boat can help keep the line tight. However, a good fish, and the net, both weigh 100 lbs each if you are drifting away from them at a brisk pace, and trying to bring the two together with one hand dedicated to each.
Posted 12/8/2009 9:37 PM (#411646 - in reply to #411458) Subject: Re: How to fight a muskie??
Posts: 720
This is a very good thread. A lot of great sticks giving some very sound and proven advice here. Two things I would like to comment on. The first thing is expanding on what Beaver wrote. I to like to try and move out to deeper water with a big girl. It gives me a feeling of comfort not having to worry about outside influences other than the boat itself. Secondly, Todd you and I have talked about this before. I depend on my drag a ton. I always have. Mainly for my hooksets. I truly feel with the longer rods and no stretch line a drag set to tight is responsible for a lot of lost fish. You can muster a lot more leverage on these fish with longer rods and some give not a lot but some is crucial to planting a hook firmly yet without creating to much slop at the point of contact with the fish. Also I feel more in control of a fishes run with a smooth and properly functioning drag over using my thumb and a free spool. It works for me but that doesn't mean its right.
Thats why I really like the way this thread has progressed. I really think Jeff's thoughts on his foot work are something a lot of us forget about. Jlong look at the physics of things makes me really think about some of the big fish I've lost in a whole new light. Todd I feel very lucky to be able to bounce stuff off you and whether we agree or not I always feel like you at least listen to my side and that you feel I'm listening to yours. Thank you. Anyhow, great job guys very cool stuff.
Posted 12/9/2009 12:27 AM (#411673 - in reply to #411637) Subject: Re: How to fight a muskie??
Posts: 8788
firstsixfeet - 12/8/2009 8:33 PM
Jason's advice is interesting, but can be inheritently difficult to execute if, like me, you are using big baits with three trebles in them and potentially 9 directions that hook can actually be buried, and unknown unless you see the fish on the hit, and then can still be somewhat of a question mark as to which hooks actually hooked up. I guess I will have to contemplate that for a while.
.
I agree with FSF here. The physics of it makes perfect sense, but I think trying to figure that out and react on the spot would cost me more fish than if I just closed my eyes, reeled as fast as I could, and prayed.
Now when you're fishing with a spinnerbait or a jig, I could see it being something you could get your head around quickly.
Hmph. It's something I never would have thought of, that's for sure!
Dave...
You are right - this is one of the better discussions I've seen. Been a long time since it's gotten to diagrams. Reminds me of the toilet bowl theory. Who remembers that?
Posted 12/9/2009 12:35 AM (#411674 - in reply to #411622) Subject: Re: How to fight a muskie??
Posts: 1663
Location: Kodiak, AK
esoxaddict - 12/8/2009 8:32 PM
esoxfly... Unless I flat out missed the hookset or for whatever reason didn't get a solid hookset, I am of the opinion that one is enough. I think it's more important to keep pressure on the fish, line tight, and try not to give the fish a chance to get off. I think multiple hooksets actually cost people fish sometimes. If you've got the fish pinned the first time, a second hookset might just make the hole bigger, and a third is liable to rip the hooks free.
Granted, I've never really tried setting the hook more than once, so that's really just speculation, but it seems to me that one good hookset is all you would need, as long as your hooks are sharp anyway...
Interesting that you fish barbless. I would think a barbless hook would penetrate better, and negage the need for multiple hooksets. It's something I've been on the fence about for quite some time... Do you think it's costing you fish? Is the ease of unhooking fish (and possibly yourself) worth the occasional lost fish?
Barbless hooks do penetrate better. I've fished 100% barbless for as long as I can remember and I've caught muskie, steelhead, halibut, salmon, pike, etc on barbless, single hook flies and never had a problem. Yeah, I've lost fish, but that's part of fishing. I've never been able to blame it on barbless hooks. And that remains now with conventional gear. I've lost some fish, but each one I've been able to attribute to a crappy hookset-either I didn't bury it, or it was at a bad angle, or whatever. One was a fish that took a fouled mag dawg, and barely had one point in it.
So no, I don't think barbless hooks cost me fish. Fishing being fishing costs me fish. I usually fish alone, but I took a buddy out the other day, and we did six fish. Me four, him two. All fish on plastics. I lost no fish that day, and all hooks came out with a bare minimum of effort, by hand; no pliers, no cutters. He fishes barbed, and he lost two, and both of his fish were ordeals getting the hooks out. Pliers and cutters on both fish. It's barbless for me, no two ways about it.
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