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Posts: 97
| This last year I was fishing lake Ontario and had a musky that seemed to have a blown swim bladder. After I went over an 18 ft. reef, I hit open water. Ten seconds ladder I had a musky hit. It was in 45 ft. of water. When I tried to release this fish, it would swim down about 12 ft. and float back up to the surface( belly up) -- I'm not proud of this and was wishing I never have gotten this fish of 50inches. I tried until I could'nt feel my hands anymore. Is there a way to pop a bladder on a musky if this misfortune ever happens again. What is the anatomy of a musky as far as the swim bladder. Its dives would be really strong, but would struggle when it went down about 10 ft. I unhooked the fish in the net, only took it out for a quick photo and measured it in the water. Thanks for any help. I'm truly sorry if this fish didn't survive for someone else to catch. |
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Posts: 1887
Location: syracuse indiana | i have heard of this being done but have not seen it done.. but i can say if you do get a deep fish you can always take them to shallow and keep them in the net and let them recoup for a while till she is ready to swim on her own.. i have done that before and it worked.. dont know if its the right way but i was told that once many years ago and it worked for me ...bill |
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| It sucks that it happened, but please don't try fizzing a muskie. |
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Posts: 1287
Location: WI | Turn them sideways or upsidedown while in the water, sometimes it'll "burp" them and you can watch the bubbles come out of their mouth.
I've heard of using a pin to pop the swim bladder, and that sounds like a terrible idea to me. The context in which I read about it was not a positive one. |
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Posts: 1663
Location: Kodiak, AK | I know people fizz bass all the time, and alot of tournement anglers carry fizzing tools.
Me, I don't know. There's some debeate in the saltwater community asa to whether or not fizzing is good for a fish or not. I don't have enough experience or info to make an educated decision or statement on it. But I will say that if you do it, do it right with a fizzing tool and not just a needle in the fish's gut.
I like the idea of keeping the fish in the net until it can correct itself. I've not had a swim bladder issue myself, but I have had fish that seem good to go and then I release them and they swim 20' and roll over. I've gone over and re-netted them and re-revived them until the fish was better able to swim off and get down. |
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Posts: 692
Location: Pelican Rapids, MN | This was debated a few months ago. Fizzing started out as an offshore reef fishing technique for deep dropped wreck fish like grouper, Snapper, etc. These fish are coming up several hundred feet. Their eyes bulge and their bellies bloat to two and three times their normal size. Bass pro's adopted it, well... Because bass are darn sturdy. Muskies on the other hand are not. Handling muskies can be fatal let alone handling them then piercing their bladder. Like esoxfly said, it is better just to stay with them and hold them right side up - Fish swims away and comes back th the surface upside down, go get it and do it over and over again up until it burps. If indeed it is acting up due to the bladder, eventually it will go. I've stayed with fish over an hour until it coughed up air. When it did, a lot of bubbles came out and the fish swam off like it was just quickly caught and released. It was a fish that was caught over deep water in late november. Water temps were just under 40 degrees and it was painful and miserable. But it was worth seeing it burp and swim off.
I think this is an issue because most people want to catch them but don't want to spend the time bent over the gunnel holding 'em until they are ready to go. A lot of folks are too impatient. And the idea of fizzing seems like an easy way to get rid of that fish quicker. But like I said in the last forum post about fizzing all you may be really doing is adding to the fishes strife and sinking a now dying fish.
Edited by Jsondag 10/10/2009 8:57 AM
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Posts: 409
Location: Almond, WI | There was an article in In-Fisherman about fizzing smallmouth around two years ago which gave fairly detailed instructions, HOWEVER, it also pointed out that fizzing is a controversial and not fully proven technique. I would NOT recommend fizzing because of the simple fact that not many of us know the exact location of a fish's internal organs with enough precision to actually do it properly. I'd rather not risk hitting the heart or stomach. There is also some debate as to how effective it truly is. I just avoid pulling fish out of depths over 25-30 feet. I've always been told to not release fish over deep water as well, but never had this clarified, and since I don't do any real open water fishing, I never asked. I'd like to see one of resident biologists chime in on this one. |
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Posts: 484
Location: St. Louis, MO., Marco Is., FL, Nestor Falls, ON | One thing is certain...a muskie taken from depths that cause the air bladder to rupture will always die if the air cannot be removed or if the fish cannot be returned to adequate depth.
This from Steve Atran, a Marine Biogist: (it relates to grouper, but has applications for all fish)
"Although some release mortality is unavoidable, how a fisherman handles a fish to be released can make a difference on whether that fish has an increased chance for survival. If a fish comes up with its stomach protruding from its mouth, DO NOT attempt to vent the stomach. There are two reasons for this. First, it's not the stomach that's the problem, it's that the fish's air bladder has ruptured internally and released air into the fish's body cavity. This trapped air expands so much that it displaces the other organs. The air needs to be released from the body cavity, not the stomach. Second, puncturing the protruding surface of a stomach, air bladder, or any other organ that might be visible creates a direct opening from the sea to the internal organ, which can be a death sentence for the fish.
The best way to vent a fish is through the body using a hollow needle such as a hypodermic needle or a venting tool specifically designed for the task. The body wall does a pretty good job of self-sealing, especially with the small hole produced by such a tool. A knife or ice pick is usually not recommended because they make too big an opening, but if nothing else if available, it's better than nothing, provided the fish is unable to swim down on its own. Return the fish to the water and revive it in an upright position until the fish swims away and descends. Don't try to push the stomach back in, because you risk causing physical damage. As the fish swims back down to its original depth, the increasing water pressure will take care of that for you."
As far as damage to the fish is concerned, a very small puncture which releases the air is less intrusive than a 5/0 hook snagged into the belly of the muskie. We have all seen muskies with large punctures, either from hooks or being bitten by a larger muskie, that have survived just fine. Usually there are signs of old trama on many fish. I would rather do the above procedure than doom the muskie to a certain death. First of all, don't fish for muskies at great depths. I know muskie can be caught in trout waters from over 100' deep, because I have done it fishing for Lake Trout. But please, don't target these fish. I have also seen a deep water release tool made from a sash weight with a reversed barbless hook and a long cord. The upside down hook is placed in the lower jaw and the sash weight is then deployed to very deep water. A strong yank on the cord will release the muskie at the chosen depth. I believe this would be quite effective. Simple to make, also.
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Posts: 8781
| How do you guys feel about putting them in the livewell? It seems to me that a dark quiet place with plenty of oxygen would be much less stressful to a fish and give them a much better chance of recovery than being handled in that situation. As for fizzing? Wow. I've seen it done on saltwater fish, but I don't trust myself to do it right on a muskie!
I guess if you know what you are doing its fine... |
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Posts: 2753
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Wow! Another timely topic on muskie's - i.e., Just in time for the late october-Nov deep water sucker bite.
From a book I just read: "A common misconception among anglers is that if a fish looks OK when it's returned to the water, it will survive. This is not always the case. Fish that have been overstressed or badly damaged - and a ruptured swim bladder certainly qualifies as severe damage - can sink to the bottom and die" (Daniel Bagur).
Now obviously there could be two potential swim bladder conditions, and both caused by the rapid assent from depths, i.e., Boyles Law: The rapid expansion of nitrogen & other gases that regulate the volume of the swim bladder at various depths.
1. Over inflated swim bladder - I think given time this fish might get rid of the excess gas and recover.
2. Ruptured swim bladder - This would imply a tear in the swim bladder (like burst balloon). In that case swim bladder gases would be released into the stomach, and quite likely push the fish's stomach out of it's mouth.
Although I have caught both pike and muskies with some pretty wicked wounds that were either healed or in the process of healing, I seriously doubt they could survive a swim bladder tear.
Something I've been wondering about and perhaps one of the biologists could answer. Are pike and muskies swim bladders physostomous (vented swim bladder - like trout & salmon) or physoclistous (sealed swim bladder- like walleye & perch)? I believe they are the latter, i.e., they can only increase/decrease the swim bladder volume through swim bladder membrane exchange of gases and not direct venting.
So what to do? Fizzing seems like you need a special tool and a precise knowledge of the fish anatomy or you may do more damage than good.
Using a lighter drag/touch while fighting, and bringing the fish up from depth slower is probably a more logical solution as it could take several minutes for the swim bladder to adjust to the depth changes as you reel it to the surface. Ok - isn't that going to stress the fish's white muscle more? Maybe not! It all depends on how much you force them to use their white muscles by how you fight the fish after the initial run.
But the reality is some are just not going to survive no matter how hard you try. It's good to see that you care about the resource, so don't be ashamed, you tried. If the fish didn't make it, you have another choice- eat it or let it be recycled by nature (this might be illegal). Check fishing regulations or discuss with local fish & game enforcement folks, so you understand the rules. Most are very happy to answer questions, i.e., rather than have to give you a ticket for violation the fish & game laws.
PS: A trick I picked out of an research paper - If the fish has an obvious fresh hook wound, rub some of the fish's slime over it. The slime will help to protect the wound from bacteria while the healing process is starting.
Have fun!
Al
Edited by ESOX Maniac 10/10/2009 6:13 PM
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Posts: 2753
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Now this is really spooky- about an hour after I posted the above message-I was flipping channels in the hotel room (I'm in Taiwan until the 18th) and found a channel where they were ocean fishing for deep fish - actually a Taiwan version of the "food channel". Wish Sled was here, maybe he could have interpreted.
But they were fizzing the fish to keep them alive in the holding tanks - showed precisely how they do it including the fizzing needle. It was actually very tappered and hollow, at least ~ 12-15" long - buisness end was exactly like a vet's hypodermic needle, other end was probably 1/4 in with a slot. The did a live demo of how to do it without hurting the fish. But I don't think it would work well on a struggling muskie.
Have fun!
Al |
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Posts: 2024
| If you're not familiar with the anatomy of a muskie, don't do it. You could be poking around in vital organs unknowingly.
You might also find this interesting: http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=21142045 |
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Posts: 2753
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Sean, At last -a reality check for everyone from a real fisheries biologist. That was my point- yes, some people do fizz fish, but it's very risky. Even if they appear to survive, for how long? Do they actually survive. Thanks for the link confirming that fizzing could actually kill the fish.
Have fun!
Al
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Posts: 2024
| Al,
I'm no fisheries biologist; just training to perhaps become one. I think Jerry's suggestion of just sticking with the fish is the best idea so far. Perhaps even massage its stomach in hopes of helping it degas. |
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Posts: 299
Location: Nowheresville, MN | Al and all, Bass and saltwater fish are physoclistous, i.e. they must use internal membrane gas exchange. Muskies are NOT. They are physostomous like salmon, trout and other soft-rayed fish in that there is a direct connection with the outside world and the swim baldder, similar to the stomach in humans. Muskies can be burped. Bass, walleye, grouper, perch etc., can not be burped. Stay with the fish and it will release the air on its own or try to burp it by applying gentle pressure from the vent to the gills. |
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Posts: 97
| Thanks everyone for your input. This is the first time I've had this problem in 20 years of fishing musky. It might just be a rare occasion, but one is to much. I fish shoals in the late fall like most anglers and was just going to the next structure. I wasn't trying to target this fish. Thanks again for the Ideas-- |
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Posts: 484
Location: St. Louis, MO., Marco Is., FL, Nestor Falls, ON | tfootstalker - 10/11/2009 3:36 PM Al and all, Bass and saltwater fish are physoclistous, i.e. they must use internal membrane gas exchange. Muskies are NOT. They are physostomous like salmon, trout and other soft-rayed fish in that there is a direct connection with the outside world and the swim baldder, similar to the stomach in humans. Muskies can be burped. Bass, walleye, grouper, perch etc., can not be burped. Stay with the fish and it will release the air on its own or try to burp it by applying gentle pressure from the vent to the gills. I would have thought just the opposite. I base that on the observation that when I bring Lake trout up from 100 ft. they continuously burp air bubbles on the way up. One of the ways I know a muskie has grabbed the lure is that they never seem to burp air as they move up. Could you give me a reference where I can read about muskies being physostomous? Maybe I can find a reason why this non-burping phenonomen happens in muskies. |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | rpieske - 10/12/2009 10:17 PM tfootstalker - 10/11/2009 3:36 PM Al and all, Bass and saltwater fish are physoclistous, i.e. they must use internal membrane gas exchange. Muskies are NOT. They are physostomous like salmon, trout and other soft-rayed fish in that there is a direct connection with the outside world and the swim baldder, similar to the stomach in humans. Muskies can be burped. Bass, walleye, grouper, perch etc., can not be burped. Stay with the fish and it will release the air on its own or try to burp it by applying gentle pressure from the vent to the gills. I would have thought just the opposite. I base that on the observation that when I bring Lake trout up from 100 ft. they continuously burp air bubbles on the way up. One of the ways I know a muskie has grabbed the lure is that they never seem to burp air as they move up. Could you give me a reference where I can read about muskies being physostomous? Maybe I can find a reason why this non-burping phenonomen happens in muskies. That's strange... I have them burp quite often in fall when fishing deep. Most times it's just bubbles as they come up but, once in a while as they jump there will be an audible burp. |
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Posts: 484
Location: St. Louis, MO., Marco Is., FL, Nestor Falls, ON | I did some research on the physostomous fish, including muskies, and did learn that some of the fish burp quite easily and others, muskies included, can have difficulty burping air. I wanted to read more but the university research site kept freezing up. Maybe that explains why I have had not seen bubbles from deep caught muskies when Lake Trout fishing and others like Will have. I did catch a 48" muskie a few years ago in 115 feet of water while trout fishing. It was severely bloated when it finally got up. While it was very strong on release (I never took it out of the water), it was unable to remain down. I attempted to burp it several times with no success. After 15-20 minutes of failure, I finally fizzed it and it immediately swam down and stayed down. Who knows whether it survived? I only know it wouldn't have had I not fizzed it. I still like the idea of a cord with sash weight and reversed hook to take the muskie back down to depth. I think I'll try and make one. |
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Location: Twin Cities | We had a fish this year that was bloated and it only came in from about 20 feet of water. It took over an hour and a half before it would go down and stay down, we massaged it repeatedly and got some air out every time. Eventually it had a BIG burp on it's own and it instantly swam off/down. Prior to that it was very docile and could hardly hold itself upright.
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Posts: 6
| Great topic and excellent info. I have been wondering about fizzing. I was shown how to do it with walleye this spring and even had to do it once...it worked like a charm. I have heard that some guys fizz muskies and thought that if it works as well as it seemed to work with walleye then it would be an important thing to be prepared for. I had the traumatic experience last fall of landing a ski that was quickly and easily released, swam away, but floated up. Surprised the heck out of me. My first thought was swim bladder but I didn't exactly know what to do so I held it for quite a long time, sort of massaging his/her stomach and talking to it, telling it that everything is going to be okay and comforting him/her. Good thing that my boat partner was patient and has the same obsession with the well-being of the musky because we were missing prime time fishing. The musky seemed to be getting stronger and finally indicated that he/she was ready to swim away. I let him/her go and away he/she went. I believe that it must have burped or whatever and that it survived...although my buddy, when he wants to get under my skin, occassionaly tells me I killed it...grrrrr... |
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Posts: 2753
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | OK- Lets hear from someone who is definitely a fisheries biologist and works with these critters. Sorno - Burp or no burp?
Al
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Posts: 2024
| Al,
I believe TFootstalker is... |
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Location: Twin Cities | esox50 - 10/14/2009 7:29 AM
Al,
I believe TFootstalker is...
Yep. |
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Posts: 2753
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Cool beans! Stalker- my appologies. Now I know for sure, I don't need one of those Chinese fizzy sticks (just kidding). Anyone know of a good bait shop in Taipei? I need to scout out some "11th hour lures".
Have fun!
Al |
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| You really must know what you are doing. I have never personally done it, but I have seen it done. When I first seen it, I didn't know what to think. But a year later proved it worked because we caught her again. Knowing precisely where to poke and releasing in the correct water depth saved this fishes life. It was a huge 52" at the time and it ate again at 53". Truly an amazing procedure. The man who performed it really knew what to do. |
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Posts: 97
| Where did he fizz it? Location |
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| I wished I would of watched more closely, but I know it was somewhere behind the pectoral fin. |
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Posts: 17
Location: NW PA/Allegheny River | Exerpt from a Larry Ramsell article.......
After the photo's are taken, gently place your muskie back in the water and hold them upright. If when you let them go they turn sideways or upside down, they may need to be "burped". Muskies swim bladder is below center, and some tired muskies cannot overcome excess air contained therein. Should this be the case, hold your fish's back against the side of the boat by the tail and using the other hand, gently press the stomach starting near the anal fin and push along the stomach towards the head. This will help to remove the excess air from the bladder and give the muskie a much better chance of regaining its equilibrium and swimming away in good shape.
Edited by PAmusky 10/16/2009 10:15 AM
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Posts: 462
Location: Syracuse, Indiana | The January issue of Fisheries (Vol. 34, No. 1, page 20) from the American Fisheries Society has an interesting article regarding venting of fish (not directly muskie oriented). While I have seen the concept promoted more for bass, lake trout, and walleyes than muskies, I see no reason the same concepts would not apply. The article not only discourages the practice, but also argues for regulations prohibiting the practice as being detrimental to survivability of the released fish. |
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