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Posts: 295
Location: Southern Ontario, Detroit River and Lake StClair | I'm just wondering what kind of speed most of you guys have caught big fish (50"+) at? I hear alot of talk about guys wanting to run 5mph+. Personaly most of my biggest fish in the 51"-54" range have all come while trolling fairly slow in the 2.8mph to 3.8mph range. Now alot of the real slow bites came in the fall but I've also burned some really big fish in the summer trolling around 3 mph. I dont think in almost 25yrs of muskie fishing I've caught a truely big fish while running over 4mph.
Good fishin'
Tim
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Posts: 1530
| tim magic is 3.9 summer. fall 2.8. |
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| I have caught monster musky trolling 6 mph, but generally 3.5 to 4.5 mph is best |
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Posts: 295
Location: Southern Ontario, Detroit River and Lake StClair | MUSKYBOY - 7/16/2009 6:59 PM
I have caught monster musky trolling 6 mph, but generally 3.5 to 4.5 mph is best
What do you classify as monster and has it been more than one? I'm not trying to rip on you or anything but get an idea of size and numbers. Woodieb8 and myself both fish the same waters and both of us have caught some serious numbers of fish in the 50"+range trolling at slower speeds than what most guys would consider normal. just lookin g to see if there's any pattern there across different waters or if its just ours.
Good Fishin'
Tim
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| A monster is typically a fish 55 inch plus... |
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Posts: 295
Location: Southern Ontario, Detroit River and Lake StClair | BenR - 7/16/2009 8:32 PM
A monster is typically a fish 55 inch plus...
Exactly, thats why I was asking, typicaly it is. I've meet muskie fishermen though that would also classify a 50" fish as monster as their home waters normally dont show fish over 44" or so. Just wanted to know where he was coming from as there's not too many guys out there with 55's under their belt. Myself included (close but not quite....> < that much short  ).
Tim
Edited by Roughneck1860 7/16/2009 7:42 PM
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Posts: 723
| well, I fish Green Bay, a ton, and over the 8 years ive fished it, and all the
ski's Ive ever witnessed come in the boat, one of which being 55lbs,
but many many in the upper 30's to low 40lb range,
weve never caught one going over 3.3 or so, mostly 2.8-3 mph is money out there.
I have tried going 4mph plenty of times, even up in the clearwater parts of the bay, and not once have I ever gotten smoked.
I dont understand it, always hear of guys gettn them trolling faster,
guess im not going to fix what isnt broke tho 
what are some of the baits you guys run at 5mph?
is it come down to whatever wont blow out of the water?
something with rattles in it that sounds like a machine gun going off?
or just good ol silent killers that throw off a mean vibe?
I know somedays we dont get into fish like I know we should,
maybe were going to slow on those days.
Id love to hear more insight into the fast trolling phenominon,
as in does it chalk up more than just one reaction strike for the day?
or when one fish goes on it, they are alll going on it that day?
hmmm I could go on askin questions, hopefully someone will answer eh? |
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Posts: 63
Location: Indianapolis, IN | I think if you can check old Musky Hunter mags, Howard Wagner, from PA, had some unbelievably different trolling techniques! I may be wrong in my memory, but I wannna say he may have at times, trolled above 10 mph! Also, if my memory serves me correctly, Mr. Wagner has caught at least 2 fish pushing the 50lb mark! So I think his techniques could be classified as "big fish" techniques!
Todd |
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Posts: 311
Location: Ontario | 2.8 to 4.0 is as god a range as any for size, numbers.
There are times when trolling slow and trolling fast each also present their own safety and boat/lure control issues. Unless you know the water really well, weaving on and off shoals in shallow, dark water is a lot tougher at 6mph than it is a 3.5. By the same token trying to creep along slow, stay on structure and walk your baits thru the rocks in a huge wind can be tough at 2mph. I think if you've got a good bait and put it where it needs to be a couple miles an hour either way isn't the end of the world. Presenting my baits is usually where I factor in speed instead of it triggering fish. No doubt speed is a variable too just like depth, vibration. My speed choice usually gets dictated by what kind of spots we're fishing and what the weather and wind is like. I could fish all year in that 3-4mph range no problem. Some times 2.5, sometimes 6, but that is a productive range. With lots of turns on and off the structure you're also getting lots of speed bursts and slowdowns. Over open water we constatly weave and power in and out of big S patterns and stuff. Come to think of it, I guess my speed jumps all over the place during a trolling pass. As a general rule, lots of bottom contact in deep water, we slow down. More noise and more time in that deep water. Shallow fishing (shoals with cabbage, shallow rock with no weed, current edge, channels etc) we speed up. I think the depth and layout of the spot is my #1 factor when I set a speed for the pass. Good topic.
Edited by JBush 7/17/2009 12:45 PM
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Posts: 1309
Location: WI | 2.5 to 3.5 for me with one 50" as my biggest trolling fish. I think going too fast will cost you more fish. Are thoes big girls really going to put in the effort to chase them down when they can easily just go pick off a slower bait? |
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Location: Sw Pennsylvania | muskytodd - 7/17/2009 1:11 PM
I think if you can check old Musky Hunter mags, Howard Wagner, from PA, had some unbelievably different trolling techniques! I may be wrong in my memory, but I wannna say he may have at times, trolled above 10 mph! Also, if my memory serves me correctly, Mr. Wagner has caught at least 2 fish pushing the 50lb mark! So I think his techniques could be classified as "big fish" techniques!
Todd
This is true. Guys typically troll out here on the east coast around 4.5 to 5.5mph, aka speed trolling and shortline trolling, and alot of guys are very very successful doing this. The idea is to get reaction strikes out of non cooperative fish. Typically this is a shallow water presentation too, but guys use it over suspended fish in open water also. To see the baits run at speeds over 5mph is awesome looking. Baits that are very popular for speed trolling are wileys, legends, and leos. All made to handle the speed and all made in Western PA. |
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| my biggest fish trolling was at 5.5mph....... in my boat, faster typically (law of large numbers) will equal bigger fish. |
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Posts: 295
Location: Southern Ontario, Detroit River and Lake StClair | What got me to post this is that I've had alot of time to think about fishing over the last 2 or 3 weeks and not alot of time to do it. With four kids between 9 and 17 yrs old my time is pretty limited. I've been at this muskie thing for pretty much 25yrs and have caught my share and then some of fish. I'm at the point in my muskie fishing that I dont really care about catching juvienille fish. With the limited time I have I want to spend it fishing for big fish, not catching a bunch and hoping for a big one but out right targeting big fish. From about 5 yrs ago and back I'd average around 3-4 fish in the 50"+ range per year. Some years more and the odd less. Thinking back about them the majority of them came in the fall. Now everyone knows the fall is known for produceing big fish in both length and weight. Everyone also knows that its time to slow things down when it comes to trolling speed. For myself the number of big fish caught in Sept, Oct and Nov out number June, July and August by about 3 to 1. What about those big fish in the summer? Do they not eat? Muskie do feed more in the fall and fatten up but its all sizes that do not just big ones. So why is it the fall produces more big fish in length aswell as weight? Is it that through most of the summer months baits trolled by them are going just too fast and they are, like JKahler said, not willing to put out the effort to chase down a normally smaller and faster bait than in the fall when it would be a slower bigger bait going by? Like I menitoned about my fall big fish out numbering my summer big fish by 3:1. Out of those summer fish the ones caught doing under 3.2mph out number the ones caught doing over 3.5 by almost the same 3 to 1. Most of my summer big fish have been caught in post cold front conditions which normally bring on slow fishing. We'd have North winds, dirty water and temp drops of 4-5 degrees. I'd slow things down to a 3mph "crawl" from the 4mph+ we'd normally troll in the summer and ......bzzzzzz....fish on. Never would cach many under those conditions but 8 out of 10 times it would be a big assed fish if we did. Coincidence that my summer big fish were mainly caught trolling slow? I dont know thats what I'm trying to figure out. I know htere exceptions to everthing like the PA style of speed trolling by Mr. Wagner but they are the exception more than the rule. So lets see if we can get a little mote thought on this subject and see if maybe we can figure some of it out.
Thanks and Good Fishin'
Tim
Edited by Roughneck1860 7/18/2009 1:23 PM
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| JKahler - 7/17/2009 2:59 PM
2.5 to 3.5 for me with one 50" as my biggest trolling fish. I think going too fast will cost you more fish. Are thoes big girls really going to put in the effort to chase them down when they can easily just go pick off a slower bait?
Is a slower speed going to create enough commotion to get a big fish to strike or might a faster speed irritate the fish enough to make it kill the bait? depends on why you think the fish are striking(feeding,territorial,noise from bait that just pisses the fish off,etc.) Any way you look at it, fast or slow could trigger them depending on water temp.,location, and all that stuff i don't understand........
Edited by esox2 7/18/2009 4:50 PM
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Posts: 4266
| I'm a trolling novice, but try to do more every year.
I guess that I think like-minded as far as summer vs. fall. The high water temps of summer make me think that faster might be better for speed and triggering reaction strikes, but at the same time I wonder how willing a fish is to expend that extra energy to chase down a fast lure. So, should I go bigger in summer to make it worth their effort?
Slow down in fall and troll big lures. Kind of the same line of thought for choosing gliders and big plastics at that time of year. Give them something big to eat, and move it at a speed that they are pretty much guaranteed to be able to hit it without expending lots of energy. Seems logical, but I still find myself experimenting with speed and lure size until I make contact with fish. If I contact small fish, should I increase lure size and slow down or make other changes? Which part of the puzzle needs changing?
Then while you are trying to piece together the puzzle, a 28" fish hits a 10" Loke or a 10" Slasher.
I still set out varying speeds and lure size and color until I make contact with some fish and go from there. Lots of variables to take into consideration besides speed to repeat or harder yet improve the size and numbers of the fish you are catching.
I just read an article in In-Fisherman today that was about fishing Green Bay in all of the seasons. I don't recall anything about speeds by season, but it was interesting about lure selection. I've been told, and the article backed up that you should be trolling smallish lures in Green Bay, but at the same time they suggested that you throw Magnum Dawgs if you are a caster or want to target isolated cover. Shad in Green Bay, but bigger whitefish as you move up to Door County, and weed beds and small baitfish again if you move up the creek mouths on the west side.
I guess it's a puzzle each time you hit different water until you find the combination of lure size and speed that the biggest fish in the system want to eat. I guess keeping a log is a great idea if you spend a great deal of time trolling.
Beav |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | Tim the waters you are fishing are different then anywhere else so you cannot compare it to anywhere else.
I remember captain Larry Jones saying " I've never caught a big fish over 3 MPH " and I said " I've never caught a big fish under 3 MPH ". Could it be that he never trolls faster then 3 MPH and I never troll slower then 3 MPH?
I let the fish dictate what speed to troll at but in the summer it's over 5 MPH and in early fall like September I slow down to 4.5 MPH and keep slowing down a bit as the water gets colder.
I think it's more important to troll at speeds that your lures work best, believers just won't work under 4-5 MPH and work best at 5-7 MPH. While plows and Wishmasters can be trolled faster but they seem more effective at 3-4 MPH or less.
You guys on St-Clair use smaller jointed baits that are best suited for slower speeds. If you were to troll 10 inch believers you would need to troll faster if you wanted to catch more and bigger fish.
When trolling spinnerbaits we start at 4.5 to 5 MPH and troll in S pattern to find out what the fish want. If they hit inside they want slower speeds and if they hit outside they want it faster.
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Posts: 295
Location: Southern Ontario, Detroit River and Lake StClair | You make some very good points Richard. LSC is a very different body of water for alot of reasons and it is tough to compare to other places. Alot of the baits guys on LSC are smaller and do fish them on the slower sides compared to some. I fish on the other hand fish a little different and more "traditional" than most of the guys here and spend ALOT of time fishing the river instead of the lake, right now I dont have a bait in my box under 9" with most of them being 10". Give it another month and half and they'll be 10"-13"+ for the rest of the year. With the way I fish and where I kind of figure it to be a little more compareable to other places than the open waters of LSC.
I dont catch anywhere near the numbers of fish the lake guys do but my average size for the year is quite a bit larger than theirs. I'm going to play around a bit with things and take what some of what you said to mind about certain baits and speeds they run best at. I might try bumping up the speeds for my spinner baits as I've never done really well on them trolling them in the 3-4mph range. Big 13" straight Believers though are one of my top fall baits at 2.8-3mph. That lazy side to side knock your head off wobble seems to drive big fish nuts. I dont run any jointed ones though as they really do seem to need that extra dose of speed to get rockin' properly. I wouldnt mind trying to get a few guys together from different areas that regularly produce 50"+ fish to play around with speeds and keep some records and see what happens. It could make for an interesting study to see if fish size does increase with slower speeds. It would be really hard tell from just me fishin' here this body of water because of like you said........it's a very different place to fish. Any one interested?
Good Fishin'
Tim
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| I had an opportunity to buy a couple homemade jointed cranks "designed for LSC". Man are they rough compared to stuff like Zalts, Timberwolves, Hoosiers, etc. What I found was that the baits don't just wobble, they also "wander". They shoot out to the left a foot or two, hang there for a couple wobbles and then back to the middle. Then to the right side. New to me but apparently common to the LSC guys. |
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Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Richard made a great point. Every lure has it's best speed.
I like to run baits at the speed where it starts to get erratic, kicking out but not blowing out while trolling. This causes strikes, not following fish. Every lure has it's limitations. Run them pushing the limit will get more strikes.
Now depending on the lure and water temps you will have to pick the best baits for that situation. Summer time is speed time. October is bigger and slower. The forage they are feeding on should also come into play when deciding on the lures you choose to use.
Speed to me is water temp related.
Lures are picked to match the forage and speed I want to run.
Every body of water is a little different. Lures are tools. Using the correct tool for the situation is the puzzle. Thats what is so cool about fishing different bodys of water.
Good luck with your puzzle. I bet Rich, you and a few of the boys out there could get a big fish pattern figured out if you all got together and shared info. Good luck with that..............
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| First of all the Big Girls do not come into the Buffalo Harbor until the water temps drop below 50 degrees,with the best action around 45 degrees.So yes I'm trolling at speeds of 3.0 mph at 50 degrees and down to as slow as 2.0 mph with water temps below 46 degrees.Richard is correct in saying that Wishmasters & Legend Plows work best at slower speeds 2.0 mph to 3.0 mph.Using Hi-Fin Trophy Divers Jtd w/Niagara Lip I will troll a little faster at 3.0 to 3.5 mph,because the action of the crankbait is better at those speeds.But I will stand by my statement that I have never caught a 50"+ Muskie over 3.0 mph and I have caught more then 50 over the years going slow.Three have been over 50 lbs as well!
Capt. Larry D. Jones
www.mostlymuskies.com |
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| Do any of you feel that video trolling could be beneficial answering trolling questions? How fish react to baits at different speeds? |
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Posts: 906
Location: Warroad, Mn | I've caught many big fish fall trolling (water temps less than 50 degrees) while trolling at four MPH or more and so have a lots of very good fishermen that I know. The faster you go the more water you cover, The more water you cover the better chance you have of contacting a fish. Muskies cam swim much faster that four MPH. Trolling isn't rocket science, it's covering water. Doug Johnson |
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| Doug,To You Trolling is not Rocket Sience,but there is more to trolling then just covering water.Most of the time we are not open water trolling.We are covering structure as deep as 35 ft,knowing where your crankbaits are not only in depth but distance and angle from the boat to place your lures in the strike zone.Doing this in gin clear water and sometimes in current as fast as 6.0 mph,placing only the crankbaits and leader in behind those structures while the boat is upstream above the structure,doing this all without loosing ground to the rivers current downstream.At the same time knowing what speed to be at with the changing current speed to have the lure action that will trigger the strike.So every lure trolled is tested for depth and action at various speeds to get correct depths.Some of the Big Girl's here in deep gin clear water will not move very far to take your offering,you have to be on the money with placement and have done the homework to know where they are on the different depths of structure that changes with water temps changing from wind direction changes that either push Lake Erie away from the head of the Niagara River or toward it,drastic 5 to 10 degree swings in the fall depending on surface cooling or warming.
Not Rocket Sience,but more work then Casting!
Capt. Larry |
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Posts: 20
| I'd like to see comments from doug or others about how close they troll next to rock walls and rocky shores on shield lakes like LOTW. Are you right up against the rocks or off them a little. I typically troll the 12-18' break and I'm wondering if I'm missing fish by not getting braver and getting my bait right up next to rocks.
And I've seen doug trolling on LOTW. He covers a lot of water and fast. |
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Posts: 295
Location: Southern Ontario, Detroit River and Lake StClair | rockpt - 8/22/2009 5:44 PM
I typically troll the 12-18' break and I'm wondering if I'm missing fish by not getting braver and getting my bait right up next to rocks.
At times if your not wearing the lip of your baits down your not catching the fish you should be. Making contact with structure can be the difference between catching big fish and catching no fish at all. I've snapped rods off against rock walls.
Good Fishin'
Tim
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Location: Warroad, Mn | Captain Larry: Perhap a poor choice of words for trolling overall, but I guess I was refering to troilling speed and not the whole chore of trolling. I also troll structure, and it's by far the hardest thing I do while fishing during the year. On the dark waters of the LOTWs I do most of my trolling in 15' or less of water, and find if I get much father out than 15' my catch rates drop considerably. Almost all my trolling in done as close to shore as I can stay and still be in around 10' of water, so learning the trolling runs is of high priority or you will soon have a repair bill. In this sense the more water you cover the better your chance of contacting fish, so higher speed is good, although it can result in a higher repair bill. Muskies do not have any problem catching a lure that is trolled at 4MPH or even faster even in the fall. I adjust the amount of line I let out to control the depth that the lure is running, so there is a little more to it than what meets the eye. Learning the runs and where the fish are is the real key to catching the fish. It takes lots of time to get to know the runs, as you need to know where you can get close and where you need to stay away. Trolling is hard work, but my catch rates fall trolling (fish/rod hour) is about double what my casting rates are the rest of the year. Doug Johnson |
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Posts: 20
| This is good stuff. Thanks for the comments Doug and Roughneck.
Been fall trolling LOTW for a few years now. Have some good fall trolling spots. Rocky shoreline with fast drop offs. Have had success, but like I said been reluctant to get real close. I have Musky Mikes and know the running depth of my baits and I'm always banging them off the bottom.
I see reports from Bay Store and musky69 (think that's Darren Nixon) and wonder if I can do better by getting closer. It's pucker time when you snag a bait in 10' right next to a rock wall and waves are banging the shore. Chinese fire drill trying to get vertical with Jerry Borst's tool and keep your boat off the rocks. One of these years I'll get up to Bay Store and learn from Frank or Doug how it's done.
Be up in mid-Oct. Will post a report. |
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Posts: 31
| Still able to cast thank you |
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Posts: 222
| Been trolling up at Baystore Camp the last week of Oct & First week of Nov. for about 9 years and have I learned a lot. It is scary sometimes how close we get to shore when a deep pocket of water cuts in close to the shore and every year you get better at learning spots we even cast them to check out the rock situation then you feel a lot more secure when running your boat. We have started to catch fish a little deeper and that is because we started fishing deeper, you will find your sweet spots to troll and you know they are there and we always start close to shore 8 to 10 ft. then 10 to 15ft. then 15 to 20ft. and if its a good spot they are there if not shallow go deep and I am not talking about a mile run of shore line i mean a 100 or 200 yard streach where you have caught fish at time and time again.
My fav spot is less then 5 min. from camp and I found that out when a few years ago we ran 30 miles for new water and hit a rock and had to deal with a bent prop shaft for the last 2 days, stayed close to camp learned every little point and inside cut and now its my fav. spot. Sorry on beign so long winded but this is one topic I love to talk about, and yes my speed is between 3 and 4 mph.
Darren Nixon |
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Posts: 185
Location: Mendota Heights, MN | Great discussion!
I spend a week each year in November on Vermilion trolling and have found 2.8 mph to be the optimum speed. The water is below 40 degrees, only slightly stained, and I am almost always fishing steep breaking, rocky structure.
My question though is this: While it is clear that musky have no problem hitting a lure traveling say 5-6 mph (or probably faster) , isn't this missing the point? Isn't the point that we are trying to present an easy and attractive meal?
I wonder about the talk about speeds and the varying opinions. Isn't it possible that there is no "one" correct speed? That water temp, time of season, target depth, and other characteristics unique to a particular body of water (such as clarity and type), are the real key factors? I really liked the answers that include these variables.
Thanks for the great info and thoughts.
Steve
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