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Posts: 295
Location: Southern Ontario, Detroit River and Lake StClair | I've been a hard core troller for over 25yrs but over the last couple I've gotten more into the casting side of things and am enjoying it huge. I dont catch anywhere near the numbers of fish I did when trolling but I find the enjoyment is there more. One of the areas I fish is a large river with a fairly good current. It ranges from 2.5mph to 5mph. I found when trolling it I always did better trolling into the current instead of against it. I'm just wondering if any hard core casters would be into sharing any info on casting in a current as far as major differences between it and a lake or low current area.
Thanks
Tim
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Posts: 106
Location: On Lake St Clair Michigan | Hey if that is the river that I am thinking about I would start by jigging Bondy Bait. I always seem to hook into one while walleye fishing. I have picked up a few at the BP on Ten Mile. The newer Musky Hunter Mag also has an article about musky fishing in rivers. It seemed pretty good.
PM if you are interested in getting together and try those rivers sometime. |
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Posts: 106
Location: On Lake St Clair Michigan | Like I said - just walleye fish...
http://www.michigan-sportsman.com/forum/showthread.php?t=294341
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Posts: 295
Location: Southern Ontario, Detroit River and Lake StClair | I'm not a big fan of Bondy Baits. Nothing personal, in fact I actually get along with Jon quite well but jiggin' isn't my style of fishin'. I do a bit of jiggin' in the fall but thats about it for that style. I prefer to actually cast. I read the article in MH and it was pretty godd but was geared more to fishing smaller rivers not ones 2 miles across, 20 miles long and 50ft+ deep. Some of the same principals apply I suppose though. I know areas that hold plenty of fish. I've had several days close to double numbers but when the shallows start to warm and the fish move off the flats I start having some issues. I'm thinking I maight just need some better boat control but I guess its a confidence or lack of it thing more than anything else.........
Broken Wing.....where abouts are you from?
Good Fishin'
Tim
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Posts: 106
Location: On Lake St Clair Michigan | I would rather cast also but like you said the flats heat up and then the monsters move down into the deeper water. I am just over in Troy, MI and the same BrokenWing on LSC.net and MichiganSportsman sites. |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | A river is a river, holes, current breaks, runs, etc. on a big river are just bigger. It will take you longer to locate fish on a big river and as with any moving water the fish can change where they are drastically from week to week. You'll find times when jigging might be your best bet as Brokenwing mentioned but it isn't for everyone (unless it's too cold to cast I hate it). Can you cast and access those same fish? Sure, casting a bulldawg with extra weight attached will get you down to where those fish are.
One important factor compared to a lake is that you always take into account which way the fish will be facing. Cross current or up current cast angles are always going to get more bites than retrieving a bait upstream, just like you found when trolling. |
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Location: SE Wisconsin | One tip is that fish always face into the current. I think it's a good idea to cast down stream and work against the current. . . Fish are more likely to chase something that comes from behind than turning and chasing downstream. |
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Posts: 4342
Location: Smith Creek | This could be a topic on its own. I agree with Will. Cast upstream. Sure they face upstream but they'd rather turn their body to snatch a meal than fight the current to catch a meal. |
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Posts: 75
| Once in a two year sequence my mate and i are able to go fishing Musky in Canada 8 or 9 days in a row.
The rest of the time we are "practacing for musky" in Europe exclusive on the (big) northerns in rivers.
We like to think they have a lot in common (BIG pike and musky)
Before starting casting on new water we do trol for a couple of sessions for quick learning the diferent structure and where to fish with more precision. After knowing some "hotspots"we start casting them.
Most of the time just using the same baits as we would use on a lake. depending on the structure where the fish are related to.
Structure here is mudlines, weedbars, rocky points, crossings and steep drop offs (from 6ft down to 20ft in a couple of ft)
When the fish are on just burning a buck will do the trick, so follow the bait progression as you are used to.
Good business we do with curly suzy 9" with a MI teaser. Burning for a couple of meters and the slow fall for a few seconds. If the fish are more slow, we take shads hopping acros the bottom. Twitching them up 2 or 3 times before letting them fal back to the botom. In a fast current, we trow upstream otherwise the bait has to be to heavy for working them finesse. |
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Posts: 2091
Location: Stevens Point, WI | Most of the year the fish in rivers will stick really tight to the current breaks. If you are casting and especially if you are fishing darker water, you will really need to pick apart the current breaks. It's not uncommon to make 6-12 casts to a very small piece of structure such as a rock or downed tree before a fish will strike. Cast to the structure from many different angles. One thing I've noticed over the years is I have quite a bit less follows and more and often times violent strikes on the river. Most of these fish are in ambush mode and are not cruisers so much. The fish expend a lot less energy waiting behind a current break out of the main current than roaming. River muskie's seem to be a lot like trout in many ways they relate to cover, so I kind of approach things like trout fishing a river. Topwater baits are always a good option on a river system. I fish them from WI opener to WI close and have caught many fish on them at both ends and every part in between them. Find fastest current including near whitewater type conditions and locate the closest current breaks and muskies will be using them. It's not uncommon to find multiple fish in a very small area, it seems they almost take turns sometimes using the same pieces of structure in a very short time frame. |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Sam Ubl - 7/7/2009 2:52 PM
One tip is that fish always face into the current. I think it's a good idea to cast down stream and work against the current. . . Fish are more likely to chase something that comes from behind than turning and chasing downstream.
I couldn't disagree with this more. Fish sitting in heavy current are likely in feeding mode and will just sit and wait for food to drift passed their face. In my findings I caught way more fish working down current than I ever did casting down stream and working against the current. Go trout fishing and see how many you catch casting down stream. Fish are much more likely to hammer something that drifts passed their face than they will chance anything in either direction. |
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Posts: 69
Location: Pittsburgh | Tim I fish 3 major rivers frequently, what I do is move along upstream till I find concentrated baitfish and then I will fish the closes structure whether it be hard or current if it has deep water close this is always better as far as how to cast to it the spot will dictate this. a muskie in slack water will strike from either direction or he wont but I always try to present bait coming upstream as most fish have there nose to current and I can work with some depth control spoons can be awesome and can be fluttered back in some situations and reworked without recasting. one more thing these are all old green water rivers clear water my guess will be somewhat different.shorter line more control and in summer fish somewhere else. |
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| Tim , we fish down South "NC" on small rivers with good moving water 95 percent of the time . We are fishing Jon boats and dragging a chain to slow us down and casting directly across current into structure. But the guy in the back "which is facing down stream " Is cating a little down stream but not directly down stream . With that being said I have caught fish casting down river not too many up river . I have found It is harder to work the baits going with the current . But thats just me . Let us know what you figure out . I may have to hit you up on some of that trolling info when I get a lake rig . Good luck Dinver |
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| You can't deny the success deep jigging the rivers has had for larger fish...provided your river is deep enough. The Bondy has surely become a dominant jig for it. The jigging seems better at mid day on a sunny calm day than anything shallow. Just my 2 cents. |
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Posts: 742
Location: Grand Rapids MN | I agree with Mike on this one for the same reasons; it's just how they feed naturally. Plus if I'm casting to structure its easier to cast up current and let the lure swing in towards the areas I want to work. This includes underwater points/structure.
Pointerpride102 - 5/7/2010 11:58 AM
Sam Ubl - 7/7/2009 2:52 PM
One tip is that fish always face into the current. I think it's a good idea to cast down stream and work against the current. . . Fish are more likely to chase something that comes from behind than turning and chasing downstream.
I couldn't disagree with this more. Fish sitting in heavy current are likely in feeding mode and will just sit and wait for food to drift passed their face. In my findings I caught way more fish working down current than I ever did casting down stream and working against the current. Go trout fishing and see how many you catch casting down stream. Fish are much more likely to hammer something that drifts passed their face than they will chance anything in either direction. |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | I used to let the the current work the bait for me. I just kept my rod tip up to hold the slack out of the water and very, very, very, very slowly picked up slack. The more line I could keep out and off the surface, the farther the bait could float down in a more natural fashion. Once it got far enough down current from me I cranked the bait in with no attempt to work it in any way, the faster I could get it back in the heavy current and drifting the better.
Medic hit on the current breaks. This can't be stressed enough. A topwater like a TopRaider will show you more current breaks than you think are out there. The more you fish your home water, the better you will get at reading the surface to determine what is happening underneath the water. |
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Posts: 272
| Pointerpride102 - 5/7/2010 11:58 AM
Sam Ubl - 7/7/2009 2:52 PM
One tip is that fish always face into the current. I think it's a good idea to cast down stream and work against the current. . . Fish are more likely to chase something that comes from behind than turning and chasing downstream.
I couldn't disagree with this more. .................. Go trout fishing and see how many you catch casting down stream.
I couldn't disagree with THIS more, whether you're talking trout, walleye or muskies.
Troll any river for walleyes upstream. I don't care where, you pick the river. Count your fish. Then do the exact same run going downstream. Count your fish. Betcha ya got zero trolling downstream. Or very few comparitively. Casting is no different.
Trout fishing: my BEST fishing for stream trout has been drifting rapalas down into uncastable areas and under objects. When your bait gets there, close the bail, give it a twitch...and hang on.
Same goes for muskies. Fish pick ambush spots and point into the current.
First, the fish, any species, has to be SUPER aggressive to leave its hiding spot or feeding station, do a 180 and chase something down. Most fish you'll encounter on any given day are NOT super aggressive. I think it was Gelb who's MHM article figured that fish were in search and destroy mode something well under 10% of the time.
The whole key here is two things: time of the bait in the strike zone, and effort required to catch the prey....given the range of moods a fish may be in. Pulling a bait in the same direction a fish is facing, or somewhat perpendicular, gives you the best odds in both categories. All they have to do is flip their tail and shoot forward or over to eat.
Face the boat upstream when casting, because boat positioning to me is much easier this way, cast quartering upstream to straight downstream. That's how I roll. If you cast directly upstream, your target is tiny and your time in the strike zone is a eye blink long in duration.
Think about it this way: try to read a bumper sticker or a license plate on a car you meet on a two-lane highway when you're both going 60. Zzzzip, gone. "If you had time to react to....." Now read a bumper sticker on a car that's going your direction and passing you that's going 1mph faster than you're going. Which plate or bumper sticker did you have time to read?
"If you had time to react to this, you're probably already halfway to the net by now."
Oh, that's what it said.
-Eric
Edited by muskie-addict 5/10/2010 9:56 AM
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | muskie-addict - 5/10/2010 9:43 AM
Pointerpride102 - 5/7/2010 11:58 AM
Sam Ubl - 7/7/2009 2:52 PM
One tip is that fish always face into the current. I think it's a good idea to cast down stream and work against the current. . . Fish are more likely to chase something that comes from behind than turning and chasing downstream.
I couldn't disagree with this more. .................. Go trout fishing and see how many you catch casting down stream.
I couldn't disagree with THIS more, whether you're talking trout, walleye or muskies.
Trout fishing: my BEST fishing for stream trout has been drifting rapalas down into uncastable areas and under objects. When your bait gets there, close the bail, give it a twitch...and hang on.
Exactly, drifting your bait from upstream to downstream. Thanks for making my point. Fish can see more than an inch in front of their face, you know that right? I can't count the number of muskies I pulled out of frothy, whitewater, rapid current where most people won't even dream of putting a cast, and for that I was thankful. I'd love to take you up on your pick the river bet, but being in Utah I don't feel it's that big of a deal to fly back to Wisconsin. You don't have to believe me, I couldn't care less.
As for your bumper sticker analogy, I don't want to give the fish time to "think" about eating my bait. Fish are opportunistic, they don't need a half hour to read the menu.
Edited by Pointerpride102 5/10/2010 9:57 AM
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Posts: 432
Location: Eagan, MN | I don't have any experience trolling for muskies in current, but I do a ton of trolling for smallmouths on the upper Mississippi, I honestly can't tell the difference in catch rates going either direction. I would guess a fish that restricts it's feeding opportunities that rigidly isn't going to survive long. |
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Posts: 69
Location: Pittsburgh | If I Cast at a navigation dam I have no choice but to cast upstream. if I cast the head of a large island with a deep sweeping side side I can only cast down stream .The spot always dictates presentation in rather shallow waters. deeper water pools cannot effectively be fished downstream as the Fish are usually at the head of it. That being said the only absolutes are what you limit yourself too. I like large blade baits as I have great success with them in the cold water periods. |
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| Gawd, as much as it sticks in my craw to back Pointer, listen to the man. He knows much of what he speaks of fast water muskies. |
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Posts: 96
Location: Eau Claire | I couldn't agree with Pointer more. I have caught, hands down, more fish casting upstream than downstream. I have personally seen 6 different people pull out a muskie all within about 200 yards of eachother, all casting upstream in the same hour. Not one fish came from downstream. This is all in shallow, fast water less than 6 feet however. The only fish I have caught casting downstream have been in sluggish waters. Pay attention to what pointer says about topraiders and current breaks, It is a killer tactic. |
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Posts: 723
| as far as trolling skis goes, certain days we see a prevalence in one direction or the other. sometimes both directions we are contacting fish.
other times its all heading upstream, others its all downstream.
guessn its all about fish location for the day.
casting on the other hand, I find ive caught way more fish working a bait quartering
with the current. pulling a bait up against the current just makes me tired  |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | I guess I should clarify that I was directing my comments toward casting as opposed to trolling in current. I don't like to troll unless it is the best method to catch fish. Since the original poster was asking directly about casting in current and not trolling in current I didn't feel it relevant to discuss trolling tactics.
I've seen 3 fish caught on 3 consecutive casts by the same person placing the cast in the exact same spot. The night before I showed this person how I was fishing that stretch of river since I had caught 3 fish that night and he hadn't had a hit. Maybe it is coincidence, but I'll take my method over casting downstream and retrieving up and be willing to put a substantial bet that the method I use will out perform casting downstream and retrieving up. And as dogboy said, you'll be ten time more tired than I will be.
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Posts: 2361
| I guess I never got to fish any of those "downstream" rivers.
Where do you find them exactly? |
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Posts: 4342
Location: Smith Creek | On the other side of the Great Divide. They all run downstream to upstream. And the fish there face downstream against the current. |
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Posts: 16
Location: Stevens Point/Sheboygan Wisconsin | Ok Kuhly and PointerPride are talking about the same exact 200 yard stretch of river. Ive seen it, fished it, caught fish in it... I agree with what their saying about that area BUT, making broad sweeping comments about all flowing current casting applications is tough to justify with only one sample location... Maybe, if I can take what Kuhly said a step further, we could make these statements about only bodies of water that are rocky, relatively fast flowing, lots of current breaks, less than 6 fow, with tanic water color, with small to medium sized fish, abundant forage, and moderate to heavy fishing pressure. That would make more sense to me. |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Small to medium sized fish eh? Must not be fishing the better spots correctly. I've had the same success on other rivers, not just the one you are talking about, some even were deep with limited forage and slow moving water (gasp!). Might want to think that people now days have cars and can travel to other pieces of water, not just those located a few miles from campus, before you make your broad sweeping comments. I'm guessing you're a freshman or sophomore. There are a lot better spots on that river than the one you are talking about, spots that don't get talked about often. |
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Posts: 4342
Location: Smith Creek | The casting upstream method only applies to rivers that have current and fish. In my experience the upstream caster will outfish the downstream caster 3 to 1 for muskies and 100 to 1 for trout. |
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Posts: 16
Location: Stevens Point/Sheboygan Wisconsin | Pointer, I am a senior in college and will be the first to admit that relatively new to the musky game compared to many on this site. That being said I own a boat and fish the river regularly from Dubay down through Biron but do enjoy throwing on the waders and hitting the three different current funnels in the area were talking about. If i had to guess as to the average sized musky that is caught out of this 30ish miles of river I would say its probably 36-40 inches, whether thats small, large, fish tank, or behemoth thats up to you. The biggest fish I've seen landed from this stretch is high 40's. Not to say there isn't bigger fish in here because there is. Your reasoning for attempting to cut me down with how I fish the river wrong is beyond me. I know your probably going to throw some snide remark my way after you read this post because I questioned the sample size of your observations. The broad array of answers about what is the "right" way to fish current in this thread from a diverse array of people that fish a diverse array of water should be enough of a clue that you don't have the answer for everything, plain and simple. If I had to attempt to answer the original question it would be to fish it all. Fish it up, down, sideways, backwards, left handed, and with your eyes closed. Fish it until you catch one and then try to formulate a bit of a pattern and figure out why that fish was where he was and why. What was previously said about current breaks I would say holds true pretty often, these fish, as you undoubtedly know, are ambushing prey and will lie in fast water but usually with some sort of break. Other than that, fish as many ways as you can. I feel that current funnels fish into smaller pockets making them more easily exploited once you figure out a pattern you are confident in. I personally have caught them fishing up current, down current, and sideways to it on topwater, blades, cranks, jerks, and plastic. Just try to fish a way that maximizes the action of the bait with maximum time in the fishes face.
PointerPride: Are you even in the central wisconsin area yet? Your location is in Utah, which seems like a long cast from the Wisconsin River. If you are still around we should hook up and tear up some snaggletooths. |
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