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| I just got done watching a Keyes Outdoors episode on the DVR that I hadn't seen and got a really belly laugh out of a little "knock-off" rant Mike keyes went on. I am sorry guys but if it's better designed and longer lasting it's not a "knock-off" it's just plain a better lure. |
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Posts: 1270
| There isn't much really new in the musky market. Pretty much everything is a knock off of another bait. The Weagle is a good bait but it's really just a knock off, slightly improved some would say, of a JackPot which in itself is just a knock off of a Zara Spook. And I bet the Spook is a knock off of something else. |
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Posts: 106
Location: On Lake St Clair Michigan | Just when you think that you have thought of something new ask an "Old Timer" , they will set you straight. |
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Posts: 512
Location: Appleton | I would bet Mike was just helping his sponsors which I would expect him to do. Without them his show wouldn't exist. Nothing wrong with that. |
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Posts: 32880
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Rule number one with this business when 'helping a sponsor' is to NEVER...never...bash the competition. Tell folks why they should buy the sponsor's product, why that product is desirable, and vouch for the quality and brand strength but never go negative. |
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Posts: 305
| as an independent consultant making part of my living promoting products i would agree with the last post. the corrollary is only promote superior products. my reputation rests, in part, upon following these principles. |
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| Well put steve. The lures they were using caught fish so I thought the "knock-off" rant was really at that point unnecessary! |
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| Par for the course with this guy.
He does his sponsors no favors by loudly bashing the competition at sport shows, tournaments, and apparently even on TV ... I have witnessed it on multiple occasions. He needs to put the smokes away for half a second and re-evaluate what he's doing. As a sponsor I would not touch him with a ten foot pole - I would not want him representing me or my products. |
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| He should probably be more careful in his rants because that whole "six degrees of separation" thing will bite you in the butt every time.
Keyes Outdoors major advertiser = Musky Innovations
Musky Innovations business partner = Trophy Tech/Reaction Strike/Rick Quade
Reaction Strike = Major producer of knock-off lures
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Posts: 229
| Just as was said above, few musky fishing items are new and innovative. Truly the Musky Innovations Bull Dawg was new and innovative in many ways. And as everyone knows, it truly catches fish. But then again the Big Joe was around before the Bull Dawg and lets face it the basic design is very, very similar. I am sure something was around before the Big Joe but am not sure what it was... All the sour grapes about knock offs of Bull Dawgs are to due to lost sales to their competitors. I see these lost sales as a result of poor business decisions made directly by Musky Innovations- for years Bull Dawgs had quality issues and as a company they were slow to react. They have noone to blame but themselves for these lost sales. If they were building a quality product for the last several years, they would have more market share today- sure there would be competitors- but most people would have stuck with the original. One final thing, I use Musky Innovation Bull Dawgs- even if I have to change the rings and hooks on each bait before they hit the water and some of them fall apart before I catch a fish. But I must admit I am really considering switching over to the competitors products.
John |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Musky Innovations has already made the changes you have mentioned, the 2009 Dawgs rock, are tough and built to last, and will get the job done in spades. This thread has nothing to do with that subject, and won't go there, either; it's been covered several times already. Brad and company stand behind the brand, and have the lead in brand recognition, distribution, and market share. |
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| LOL Keyes Outdoors is not the original musky fishing show so aren't they a "knock off" show? LMAO! Get real Mike! Your major sponsors make lures that are similar AKA "knock offs" from your definition. WOW! |
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Posts: 999
| How many of the MuskieFirst people know the bulldawg was invented back in 1994!!!! And it took 15 years or so to really come to market!! The Big Joe was invented around the same time/market so they really are two of the very first plastic swimbaits ever of their kind.
I agree Mike should have been focusing on his sponsers bait while promoting it and not even mentioning other people that make baits similar. Bad Advertising in my book!
Mr Musky |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Fisherman are just knock off's of native spear fisherman. |
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| Forgot to point out that the new "innovative" coil harness in the new Dawgs arre the exact same harness that is in the Tackle Industries SuperD. So copying is ok, it just depends on who you are?? I was actually a little surprised when I saw a picture of the new Dawg harness and it is identical to the SuperD one. Just a funny side note for all. |
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Location: Sun Prairie, WI | What’s the deal with everyone getting so upset with so called “copying?” Who really cares?! Everything is a copy of the original regardless of what the product is otherwise we’d all be driving the same brand of car, wearing one brand of blue jeans, drinking the same brand of beer, watching the same TV, using the same type of computer, using the same software, harvesting farm fields with the same brand of equipment, using the same brand of golf equipment, and on and on and on. But, when it comes to fishing equipment, people get all uptight about so called copies or knock offs. Sure, there are minor differences, but essentially they are the same regardless of type of bait or brand of bait. You think a Cowgirl is innovative? To some extent, yes it surely is, but when you get down to brass tacks it’s a modification of an old standby, the bucktail. Sorry, but the bucktail was around long before Cowgirls. It’s simply a modification of an existing type of lure. BTW, I’m not picking on Cowgirls, just using it as an example. I could have used golf equipment just as easily, or pencils or anything else you see in your field of vision every second of every day. Differences, yes, but essentially, all the same. A TV is a TV. Yes, there are differences in quality and features, but they all work the same, meaning you turn it on and you can view something either live or recorded. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | BL Whoppertail. Double bladed bucktail form a very long time ago. I think a picture of one is painted on the side of the big propane tank in Boulder Junction. |
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Location: Sun Prairie, WI | sworrall - 6/3/2009 11:01 AM
BL Whoppertail. Double bladed bucktail form a very long time ago. I think a picture of one is painted on the side of the big propane tank in Boulder Junction.
Good point, Steve. Larry Dahlberg was fiddling with double bladed bucktails many years ago as well.
Although I don't want to take this thread off course from the original poster, I just think it's ironic that so many people are worried about so called "copying" of a bait, but they have no problem with just about every thing else they own being copied from somewhere at some point in time.
Edited by gtp888 6/3/2009 11:29 AM
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| One could argue that the bulldawg is just an adaptation of the original curley tailed rubber bait known as the Mr Twister. I'm not sure how old those are but I had them as a kid. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | It's basically a Creature with the jig head on the inside. Great idea, yet does pretty much the same thing. They got bigger and bigger with time, and are now called 'swimbaits'. Cool lures all the way. |
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Posts: 1504
Location: Oregon | Mr Musky - 6/2/2009 10:38 PM
How many of the MuskieFirst people know the bulldawg was invented back in 1994!!!! And it took 15 years or so to really come to market!! The Big Joe was invented around the same time/market so they really are two of the very first plastic swimbaits ever of their kind.
Mr Musky
The bulldawg might have been the first to look like it does but there were soft plastic lures around for decades before 1994. There are swimbaits that are probably 75 years old or older that are very similar in shape to dawgs and the Joe. Musky Innovations does deserve credit for bringing the dawg to the mainstream musky world though.
RM
Edited by RiverMan 6/3/2009 5:43 PM
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Location: Oswego, IL | Everything is a knock off if you look at it like that. From Cars, to humans. So whats the big deal? I guess I dont get it, knock offs are usually just as good or sometimes better, thats not a knock off thats a improved product. If its originally made here and then China makes it and falls apart - thats a knock off. Or a Nike T shirt made in china and sold on the internet as a Nike shirt thats a knock off. Here is the real definition:
Main Entry: knock·off
Pronunciation: \'näk-?o?f\
Function: noun
Date: 1966
: a copy that sells for less than the original ; broadly : a copy or imitation of someone or something popular
So these lures are not selling for less, they are not a copy(a copy means the exact same if you didnt know) or an imitation because they are built with different materials, wieght, size, quality.
Edited by muskiewhored 6/3/2009 5:53 PM
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| quality and then price is how i buy. if the "original" can't get it right then its not my fault. |
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| With all due respect to everyone on this forum, do you honestly not have a clue as to how the tackle industry works? Do you want to start your own "knock off" company? If you have a few bucks saved up go here:
http://www.chinalure.com/soft%20lure/musky%20lure.htm
and before you know it, boom! You'll have your own line of Alien Eels, Dawgs, Uptown Dawgs, Nibblers, Twin Fins, etc. Or do a google search on "china fishing lures" and you'll find every lure that's considered unique or innovative. They're all available to you with varying minimums.
My point is that they're all available, they're all legal as there are no patents on any of these lures and you could be selling them yourself within a few months. It's a simple matter of morality. Is it right to do it? I don't know. If there are no patents on any of these lures it's legally ok to sell the same thing. My issue is that if you set patents and legalities aside, is it ok to do it simply because you can get away with it? I fall on the side of no, it's not right. |
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Location: Sun Prairie, WI | Getaclue - 6/5/2009 11:29 PM
With all due respect to everyone on this forum, do you honestly not have a clue as to how the tackle industry works? Do you want to start your own "knock off" company? If you have a few bucks saved up go here:
http://www.chinalure.com/soft%20lure/musky%20lure.htm
and before you know it, boom! You'll have your own line of Alien Eels, Dawgs, Uptown Dawgs, Nibblers, Twin Fins, etc. Or do a google search on "china fishing lures" and you'll find every lure that's considered unique or innovative. They're all available to you with varying minimums.
My point is that they're all available, they're all legal as there are no patents on any of these lures and you could be selling them yourself within a few months. It's a simple matter of morality. Is it right to do it? I don't know. If there are no patents on any of these lures it's legally ok to sell the same thing. My issue is that if you set patents and legalities aside, is it ok to do it simply because you can get away with it? I fall on the side of no, it's not right.
So, do you buy only "the orignial" of everything in your life, meaning cars, jeans,
chainsaws, golf clubs, and every other thing that exists on Earth, or do you only hold this standard to fishing tackle for some very strange reason? If not, seems to me you've made my point for me, see my post above, and you're not living up to what you're preaching.
Edited by gtp888 6/6/2009 9:47 AM
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Posts: 32880
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | In the fishing tackle industry, it's BRAND that matters. Develop a solid product, market it to the target audience as efficiently as one can, and develop that brand. When all similar lures are commonly referred to as 'Dawgs', or DCGs, or Dardevles because that's the first name to mind, there you have it. Stores will want that brand because the consumer asks for it. That's the task set for any lure company loking to make it in any serious volume in the retail market.
That said, the secondary market, Ebay for example, sets a new paradigm and can be successfully implemented big lure company...or small. Brand still counts, but usually with most it's 'as good as' in the pitch line. This is a free market economy (for awhile yet, I hope) and all is acceptable to me; it's up to the company how they develop that brand loyalty and recognition. Those who don't, don't hang around long. |
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| Knock-offs have been around forever and always will be. The funny thing is that these so called "knock-offs" are often made better and have slight modifications to them to make them "different." Yes, different. I have not found a brand of a lure on the market yet that fishes exactly the same as a different brand. Just because the shape of the lure might appear similar, does not mean it fishes the same. Besides that, if it weren't for "knock-offs", we would all be spending $20-$30 minimum on a lure and that is ridiculous. If you can't handle the heat with other competition, you shouldn't be in the business industry. A certain "knock-off" is my go to lure at the moment for half the price. Works better and catches more fish for less.
Edited by Baby Mallard 6/6/2009 11:57 AM
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Location: Latitude 41.3016 Longitude 88.6160 | JJ is right QUALITY 1st !!!!!!!!!!! with a good price. I could care less about brand name, if a brand name plastic bait falls apart from casting, I will buy who ever can get it right. If a original brand can not find a way to stay competitive, I will buy from a CO. that is. What PO's me the most is when a brand name co. trys to sell junk under there brand name and trys to get top $$$ for it. |
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Posts: 69
Location: janesville | there not really knock offs just modifications to an original lure to make it better or different |
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Posts: 1504
Location: Oregon | As a consumer I think it is easy to say "competition is good and there is no such thing as a knock-off". But if you spent months of your time developing a lure and thousands of dollars producing it only to see it copied and made by someone else I think most would see it differently.
Fishing lures have been around a long, long, time and trying to make something unique is almost impossible. As a lure builder, I enjoy taking lure concepts and trying to put my personality into something slightly different. I have lures that I have literally worked on for months to get them right and someone could very easily repoduce them in a day. I guess it just depends on one's investment and perspective.
Jed V.
Edited by RiverMan 6/7/2009 11:33 AM
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