Posted 11/13/2008 1:21 PM (#345161) Subject: How powerful is the lateral line really?
Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot
I had pictures of this fish sent to me and I forwarded them onto my friends at the DNR. Yesterday we were standing around talking about this fish and how it can survive. Sure, a fish can sense vibrations from a fish but how does it know if it's in 1'. 10' or 100' of water? How does it know if it's properly concealed? One the "spot on the spot"?
I think that the fish's lateral line is WAAAAAAYYYYYYY more sensitive, powerful, and mysterious then any of us can imagine.
This also got me thinking more about lures that have the right "dance". It also makes you think twice about the importance of color is in dirty water.
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Posted 11/13/2008 1:41 PM (#345164 - in reply to #345161) Subject: Re: How powerful is the lateral line really???
Posts: 8779
Shawn, I can't answer your question but I've made a radical shift in my view on color, for several reasons:
1. Fish feed at night. I doubt that they can see what they're eating, but they manage to find it anyway
2. The depths we contact fish at often times are depths where most colors are filtered out and light penetration is minimal
3. Fish feed successfully in turbid water, heavy current, etc.
There was a study a while back where they studied feeding fish in various states of impairment - some had the lateral line disabled and fed by sight only, some had their sight disabled and fed by lateral line only. I can't remember where I read the study, but if I remember correctly the lateral line was far more important to successful feeding than vision was.
I still tend to stick to natural colors in clear water, because I still believe it gives you a slight advantage, but much of the time in dark/stained/muddy/etc water, I will choose colors that enable ME to see the lure more clearly. I know the fish can find it. This is why I laugh a bit at some of the color patterns out there -- amazing for us to look at, works of art. But I believe much of the time the fish has already committed to eating that lure because of what it is doing LONG before it gets close enough to take a good look. Then I think about some of the things fish eat, things that look nothing at ALL like their normal prey. If a fish is going to eat a big bucktail with red and orange feathers and big metal blades, not even shaped like a fish, might it be more about what that lure is doing to the lateral line of the fish?
Posted 11/13/2008 1:45 PM (#345167 - in reply to #345161) Subject: Re: How powerful is the lateral line really???
Posts: 1080
Very impressive.
Some naaaaaaaaaaaaaaasty things goin' on with that fish sad to say.....geeeeesh.
I've said it all along for many, many years...Mother Nature can be a lot more cruel to animals/fish in the wild than man can imagine. We should always still practice CPR...but...just remember...they're fish...and....they're not nearly as fragile as some make them out to be. And in the end...Mother Nature can dish out some horrible things and if it's that fish's time to go...it's that fish's time to go, even if man intervenes or not. Some animals/fish live through it, just like some humans live through some pretty bad hands that are dealt to us in life....some do not.
This is perfect proof of this fish having a bad hand of cards dealt to it in the game of life..yet...seems to be able to adapt and still get along in life without skipping a beat and continues to be healthy.......for now anyway.
Posted 11/13/2008 1:51 PM (#345168 - in reply to #345161) Subject: Re: How powerful is the lateral line really???
Posts: 2024
This was the final straw for me. Yes, muskies are by and large visual predators, but the lateral line plays a lot more importance than I think a lot of people give it credit for. "The muskellunge [blinded with lat. line use only] were generally as successful in these strikes as were the control animals (73 %) [strike to capture proportion]".
Posted 11/13/2008 2:40 PM (#345173 - in reply to #345161) Subject: Re: How powerful is the lateral line really???
Posts: 8779
Thanks, Sean, that was the study I was referring to.
If I'm interpreting the data correctly, the visual system is used to locate prey at greater distances and the lateral line is used in determining when to attack. The article mentions that the muskies who were completely blinded only fed on things that were very close.
None of that tells us anything about the color of lures, but it leads me to believe that muskies will generally be able to stalk prey from much greater distances in clear water, and that the dirtiest, water or low light conditions would make it necessary to get the lures right in their faces. Runs contrary to the notion that clear water is more difficult to fish, doesn't it?
Posted 11/13/2008 2:42 PM (#345174 - in reply to #345161) Subject: Re: How powerful is the lateral line really???
Posts: 8779
p.s.
whatever that is on that fish, it's NASTY! Be interested to find out what sort of chemicals we're dumping into that water and make sure its not finding its way into the water we drink....
Posted 11/13/2008 2:49 PM (#345175 - in reply to #345161) Subject: Re: How powerful is the lateral line really???
Posts: 1080
Esoxaddict,
By the titles of the photos, having the word "cancer" mentioned, I'm guessing that Muskie Treats found out from the DNR that that fish is suffering from some sort of cancer, that may or may not have anything to do with a chemical being in the water...
Posted 11/13/2008 4:05 PM (#345194 - in reply to #345161) Subject: RE: How powerful is the lateral line really?
Posts: 2894
Location: Yahara River Chain
how does it know if it's in 1'. 10' or 100' of water?
Why would it even care. If it is happy catching food, I really don't think it cares where it is. It may care if the water gets too warm ro too cold for their comfort, but I really doubt that it matters to them.
How does it know if it's properly concealed?
My guess it trail and error. if it works it must be good and they keep it up. Just like we do, we catch a fish with a certain bait and for whatever reason that one hit it, most likely another one will too.
One the "spot on the spot"?
Again trail and error. They must be able to see (or feel in the darkest waters) there prey is nearby. If they are near them, that must be the right spot as it would not take much effort to grab one.
In the spring when I go for the walleye opener in Canada, sometimes the are suckers spawning in the shallows. Muskies are there too out in the open. All sand bottom - no cover, but their dinner is nearby. They don't care if we watch them as they are not shy and the suckers just swim around them laying in 1 or 2 ft of water. But every now and then a ruckus happens. You can bet a muskie got an hankering for a sucker dinner.
Posted 11/13/2008 4:30 PM (#345198 - in reply to #345161) Subject: Re: How powerful is the lateral line really?
Posts: 1168
Muskies are both visual and feel type feeders. Water clarity determines which one of these senses is the dominant feeding mechanism but I would be willing to bet that if you took a muskie that is used to feeding in turbid water and put it in clear water it would feed more efficiently than one that went from clear water to dark water. Eventually they will adapt but initially that's what my money would be on.
In regards to dark water, stained water, turbid, and clear water I've found that it is a big help (confidence boost) to understand which colors are filtered out in the water that you are on. As a general rule I'll lean to colors that match the color of the water. Stained I'll go with a green because the stain in the water is merely green light that is being reflected by it. A tannic stain I'll lean more towards oranges/reds/browns because that is the color that is being reflected by tannic stained water. Clear water is more to the blues. The reason for this is that in a tannic stained body of water an orange/red is going to be visable deeper in the water column than a blue will be whereas in a clear system a blue will be visible deeper in the water column than an orange/red would be. Take that blue bait and put it in water with a tannic stain and it "disappears" easier than a bait that is orange or red. I want the baits that I throw to be visible at the greatest possible distance so a blue in a stained body of water won't be as visible as an orange/red.
As for the comment about that fish eating a blade...not necessarily. To us shaking a bulldawg does nothing to stimulate our hearing but that bait is pushing/displacing water which is significant in terms of what a muskie can feel or "hear" with their lateral line. The trick is in finding what type of "sound" or vibration/water displacement level is the one that will trigger their feeding mechanism. If you find what that stimulus is it's only half the battle. The next trick is in matching that stimulus to a bait that is more readily detected by sight for that fish. I've seen it play out where I'll have fish going ape on a particular bait but they swing and miss. Change up the color to one that is more easily detected by them and their percentage of connecting increases dramatically. Same bait, just a different color that is more defined based on what the water color is.
Posted 11/13/2008 6:47 PM (#345219 - in reply to #345161) Subject: Re: How powerful is the lateral line really?
Posts: 1887
Location: syracuse indiana
i have actually chased a one eye female about 3 years ago she was about a 45+ fish she was totally blind in one eye. and every time i had her up which was several times during the season i figured out that my usual style of the fig 8 wouldnt cut it.. she was always loosing site of the bait.. but when i seen her at the last of the season i reconized her and changed my direction of my 8 and i got her on the hook.. after a few min fight and my nephiew couldnt get the net going she spit the tail back at me.. .. i have heard of other anglers having chances at her. on the same body of water and on the same spot for 2 years.. so they do figure out a way to survive.....bill
Posted 11/13/2008 7:21 PM (#345224 - in reply to #345161) Subject: Re: How powerful is the lateral line really?
Posts: 32885
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Pressure waves, not sound.
Color is totally dependent on light penetration, direction, and how much particulate gets in the way. Colors looking generally upward as a muskie does from UNDER the water look totally different than to our eyes from above. I prefer to think 'contrast', because without it the muskie has a rough time separating the lure from the background.
Take a fish out of turbid water and place it in a clear water aquarium, and it usually will sit still for a couple days before slowly beginning to adapt to the conditions. Take a fish out of clear water and pace it in that same aquarium, and it will get the worst case of tank lip you have ever seen.
Posted 11/13/2008 10:17 PM (#345248 - in reply to #345161) Subject: Re: How powerful is the lateral line really?
Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot
The DNR assumed it was tumors of some sort. The research biologist was amazed that the fish wasn't kept. I guess he was a bit old school.
Muskie! If we assume they "learn" these things through trial and error then I think some of use have to give the fish a little more credit in the brainpower column then before. The point I was trying to make is what's to keep the fish from wandering around aimlessly? Is it a case of say a human that goes blind where the other senses pick-up the slack?
As far as the bait goes, I don't know but I can make a pretty good guess...
Posted 11/14/2008 8:21 AM (#345264 - in reply to #345260) Subject: Re: How powerful is the lateral line really?
Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI
I've been fascinated by the lateral line for years. As a result, I've read lots of literature on it in an attempt to understand how it works and perhaps give me an edge when fishing. Very cool organ, that's for sure.
John New, Cheryl Coombs, and others have published some very good info. The mere fact that they can make a fish repeated strike a "vibrating sphere" by changing the frequency is proof enough for me that the lateral line is a dominant element for catching fish.
New and Coombs suggest a typical fish can successfully strike a lure from a distance of twice their body length. So... a 50 incher could successfully get a lure into its yapper from almost 9 feet away without making visual contact!!
My own personal observations indicate that muskies can sense or detect the presence of a lure from much greater distances. Not sure exactly how far... and I'm sure its dependant on the size of the stimulus (lure size, action, speed, etc.).... but I've seen fish approach a lure from 10 yards away in water with visibility of only a few feet.... so I'm convinced it has some "long range" capabilities as well.
Posted 11/14/2008 8:31 AM (#345268 - in reply to #345161) Subject: Re: How powerful is the lateral line really?
Posts: 1168
jlong,
Is Cheryl Coombs the professor from Indiana who was doing those studies trying to identify frequencies that caused a feeding stimulus in suckers or trout? Or am I thinking of a different study?
Posted 11/14/2008 8:37 AM (#345269 - in reply to #345248) Subject: Re: How powerful is the lateral line really?
Posts: 2024
Muskie Treats - 11/13/2008 10:17 PM
Muskie! If we assume they "learn" these things through trial and error then I think some of use have to give the fish a little more credit in the brainpower column then before. The point I was trying to make is what's to keep the fish from wandering around aimlessly? Is it a case of say a human that goes blind where the other senses pick-up the slack?
That's an interesting point. Do a fish's sensory organs become more acute when one (or more) is removed? Possibly, but I think that would be hard to determine. You have to wonder, how do they search out prey in water that has visibility less than 6" (i.e. Cave Run, Green River, etc. in the spring)? I think clearly sight plays very little role in their foraging behavior (under these conditions), maybe except right at the last second as the attack is occurring (sight used to make quick adjustments to the prey's location).
The lateral line can send signals to the brain relative to distance, location, and direction of motion. It is quite a complex system, but is key to making muskies the top predators in freshwater systems. The other interesting feature of muskies and pike (and possibly other freshwater fishes) is they those pores under their jaws that are often believed to detect vibrations. What's interesting is that sharks have very similar pores called "Ampulae of Lorenzini" that detect slight electrical fields (if you've ever seen a great white bite a metal shark cage it's because when the metal cage is lowered into the salt water there is an electrical field created that the shark detects... and bites). In terms of foraging, these electrical fields can be created by muscle contractions from fish/prey. Do muskies have this sense? Would be interesting to test...
Posted 11/14/2008 9:26 AM (#345271 - in reply to #345161) Subject: Re: How powerful is the lateral line really?
Posts: 32885
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
There has been some suggestion that Muskies and Pike use the UV spectrum as well, totally changing the equation if so, especially in turbid water.
Jlong, I've seen a muskie cover 50' no problem on a direct line approach to a lure that ends up in either a spectacular miss, or a spectacular strike. I think there's something to your ideas on distance, from what I've seen.
I bet availability has alot to do with sightless feeding success, if food is slightly on the scarce side, I would wonder if the muskie would have some problems.
Posted 11/14/2008 9:57 AM (#345274 - in reply to #345273) Subject: Re: How powerful is the lateral line really?
Posts: 32885
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
This is interesting>
lambeau
Posted 11/14/2008 10:10 AM (#345279 - in reply to #345271) Subject: Re: How powerful is the lateral line really?
Jlong, I've seen a muskie cover 50' no problem on a direct line approach to a lure that ends up in either a spectacular miss, or a spectacular strike. I think there's something to your ideas on distance, from what I've seen.
i've had that happen too.
one time in particular fishing very clear water on a calm day: the lure splashed down and then i see a muskie charging it fast along the shore from at least 50' away. i was sure it was going to eat, but it stopped on a dime less than a foot from the lure.
my hypothesis is that this fish was in an aggressive mood with a very large strike zone. it's lateral line was more than up to the task of getting it to the lure (zone of awareness, so to speak) even from a long distance away in order to investigate. once it got close enough to feel and see the lure more closely, it wasn't fooled by the lure (stupid gliders...).
one interesting thought i've had about this is that it suggests all fish "know" the lure is there, even from a relatively long distance away, probably much farther than we realize. is it just a matter of mood or some other factor that decides how far the fish is willing to travel to check out a lure more closely? i wonder how far away some of the follows we get are actually coming in from?
Posted 11/14/2008 10:32 AM (#345281 - in reply to #345248) Subject: Re: How powerful is the lateral line really?
Posts: 2894
Location: Yahara River Chain
Muskie Treats - 11/13/2008 10:17 PM
Muskie! If we assume they "learn" these things through trial and error then I think some of use have to give the fish a little more credit in the brainpower column then before.
This term "learn" is probably not the best term as you and I know it, but conditioned would be better. This happens daily. Each day (or almost each day) they are faced with finding a meal. And each day they find it in a certain areas. Some areas a better than the others and they get conditioned to that fact. They have to have some level of conditioning or else they would die eating something that would kill them or getting eaten by something else because they would not flee. If fish don't get conditioned then why would a sucker get nervous around a muskie???
Posted 11/14/2008 10:38 AM (#345282 - in reply to #345161) Subject: Re: How powerful is the lateral line really?
Location: Twin Cities
I don't know how many times in the last 2 months i've had fish just "show up" at the side of the boat, seemingly from no where as the lure gets close. On more than 4 occasions, i've noticed a fish doing EXACTLY what lambeau describes, bolting up to a lure only to slow down and drift off once close. Sure had me fooled thinking they'd eat!
Posted 11/14/2008 10:54 AM (#345285 - in reply to #345281) Subject: Re: How powerful is the lateral line really?
Posts: 1168
muskie! nut - 11/14/2008 11:32 AM
This term "learn" is probably not the best term as you and I know it, but conditioned would be better. This happens daily. Each day (or almost each day) they are faced with finding a meal. And each day they find it in a certain areas. Some areas a better than the others and they get conditioned to that fact. They have to have some level of conditioning or else they would die eating something that would kill them or getting eaten by something else because they would not flee. If fish don't get conditioned then why would a sucker get nervous around a muskie???
If fish get conditioned then why does catch and release work?
Posted 11/14/2008 11:35 AM (#345291 - in reply to #345285) Subject: Re: How powerful is the lateral line really?
Posts: 2894
Location: Yahara River Chain
ulbian - 11/14/2008 10:54 AM
If fish get conditioned then why does catch and release work?
They would get conditioned if they were fished 24/7. Just look at Canada vs these pressured lakes here in S WI. Sure they can be caught, but constant contact with humans have made them very wary.
Posted 11/14/2008 12:30 PM (#345295 - in reply to #345161) Subject: Re: How powerful is the lateral line really?
Posts: 8779
Gerard, you bring up a good point. I know you fish the Madison area, as I frequently do. I have never seen a fish follow on the Yahara Chain more than once. It seems like you get one look from them and then you either catch them or they're gone.
My experience ion Canada has been completely different. If a fish follows once, it will follow again. And again. And again the next day, and again and again and again...
Posted 11/14/2008 12:47 PM (#345297 - in reply to #345161) Subject: Re: How powerful is the lateral line really?
Posts: 32885
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin
Wary implies knowing what the 'danger' is. I wouldn't give them that much credit.
I believe they simply have less reaction to the stimulus of your lure footprint, because it is a common portion of the environment in Madison, not so much in Canada.
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