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Posts: 366
| Not sure if there is any way to ask this without someone getting upset, sign of the times I guess, but why is it illegal to troll in parts of Wisconsin? Was it made illegal or has it simply never been made legal like most other places. I've never been to WI, so I don't really care if the law ever changes, but I've always been curious. Ever since I read "Time On The Water" many years ago I've always thought that it was kind of funny, thats funny strange not funny HaHa, that part of the state doesn't allow trolling.
After reading the sucker thread, which yes is pretty funny HaHa, I started thinking about this. I'm not a troller, so I don't really see why one would make it illegal. Sucker fishing, trolling, DCGs, whatever, there is no easy sure proof method to fishing. If there was everyone would do it. That being said, is trolling illegal because of the notion of an unfair advantage, or something else entirely?
Is there an effort being made to have this law changed or is it accepted and widely supported? I admit that I'm completely ignorant to this issue, but if I wasn't then I guess I wouldn't be asking this. Obviously the laws are somewhat different everywhere you go, so I'm not making any kind of attack on WI law makers, I just want to understand it for what it is.
Ryan |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Tradition. |
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Posts: 366
| enough said.
life without politics? |
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Posts: 78
| Wisconsin always rated its lake as A, B, C. A "A" lake had natural reproduction and was no trolling to make it harder to catch them as old men like me cannot cast all day, but we could troll all day with little phsical effort. A "B" lake had a good population of musky, but no natural reproduction, the population was maintained by stocking. Trolling allowed. A "C" lake has a marginal population of musky, no natural reproduction and trolling is allowed. At least that's how I remeber it. |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | sworrall - 9/24/2008 9:04 PM
Tradition.
Yep.
JS |
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| Tradition yes, but also I think the idea of fair chase comes into play with it, and at some point in time an esthetic developed in WI that felt motor trolling wasn't fair, however as far as I know, trolling itself has always been allowed and practiced.
There was a window of opportunity for motor trolling a few years back, and naturally guides exploited it to the fullest to get dudes fish, and there were some tales circulating of some rather impressive fish removal days in some of the smaller lakes, and that upset a lot of fisherman again.
My personal feeling is that trolling can wreak havoc on some of the smaller lakes in the state and would impact some larger waters also, if allowed. Waters are very uneven in terms of their "vulnerability" to trollers. Those that are vulnerable tend to get hit hard. My personal feeling is that a lot of trollers are meat fisherman, not musky fisherman first.
Greg Thomas has accused my bias against trolling as being the WI in me, LOL. That may be true, but personally I would hate to see WI open itself to trolling any more than what is allowed at this time. Some fisherman seem to think that all possible ways should be allowed to fish musky(or at least the ones they approve of). I just don't see the need to make it any easier than it already is to catch muskies. If you want to troll, get a boat with oars. Troll up a storm. |
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| I troll and release all fish. I don't fish Vilas or Oneida counties much because they don't allow trolling. There loss not mine. I'll take my money elsewhere. I can see if they don't want to allow it on lakes less than 1000 acres or if they want to limit it to one line but to ban trolling because of tradition? All tradition does is lead to thick sculls. |
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| Guest - 9/25/2008 2:32 PM
...I don't fish Vilas or Oneida counties much because they don't allow trolling. ....
That's the best argument against trolling I've heard yet...
I think way too many people would be out there killing fish if joe anybody could go out and troll. The only way I'd support motor trolling would be on lakes that were over a certain size and had a 50" size limit, and only allowed one line per angler, by permit only, the proceeds of which were used to fund stocking on lakes where trolling was allowed.
But then row-trolling is something that's pretty unique, and that's a tradition that I wouldn't want to see go away. I suspect that row trolling would die a quick death if motor trolling were allowed. Maybe tradition isn't always a bad thing.
I do think that people who are too old to cast or have some sort of disability should be able to troll, but that's about it. |
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Posts: 78
| Another trouble with trolling is that some people would use #100 pound test and when they got a hit they would speed up their outboard and drown the fish by dragging it. Maybe there should be a horsepower limit on trolling: say 15 horses? |
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| esoxaddict - 9/25/2008 2:48 PM
Guest - 9/25/2008 2:32 PM
...I don't fish Vilas or Oneida counties much because they don't allow trolling. ....
That's the best argument against trolling I've heard yet...
....
I do think that people who are too old to cast or have some sort of disability should be able to troll, but that's about it.
I agree wholeheartedly with line one, but don't agree that old people and disabled need to be allowed anything extra to musky fish. There are plenty of lakes and waters where they can troll to their hearts content already in WI. And, they can still hang out 3 suckers in strategic spots and catch them that way.
As to "guest" comment on tradition, heard it before, not a really well thought out comment at all, as traditions are usually formed for reasons that are rewarding in some way to the population that holds them. |
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Location: Mayer, MN | MuskyGary - 9/25/2008 4:10 PM
Another trouble with trolling is that some people would use #100 pound test and when they got a hit they would speed up their outboard and drown the fish by dragging it. Maybe there should be a horsepower limit on trolling: say 15 horses?
How do you drown a fish?  |
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Posts: 584
| I don't understand how trolling would "wreak havoc" on smaller lakes...or any lake for that matter. Perhaps you could provide a couple of examples of other waters where trolling, as a specific fishing method, was shown to have "wreaked havoc" on a certain fishery? I would think it would be pretty easy to come up with a few, since trolling is allowed on virtually all lakes/water bodies on Planet Earth, except N. WI....
Why again is it a bad thing to allow anglers a perfectly safe and ethical method to catch fish?
And don't tell me "because its too easy" on some lakes. That argument cuts both ways. As you say, some lakes in Vilas are certainly better suited for trolling, and it would be a productive method of fishing. But then, some lakes are better suited for casting. If you want to use that logic, then it would follow that we need to ban casting on the lakes that are most suited for casting.
From a philosophical standpoint, I tend to disagree with arbitrary, governmental limitations/encroachments on fishing/hunting rights. Give me a solid scientific reason to justify a trolling ban (where trolling is distinguished from other legal methods of angling) and I'm definitely willing to listen.
Otherwise, I have difficulty grasping the basis for the trolling ban as anything other than purely traditional. |
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Location: Muskegon Michigan | Seldom do I venture into this discussion but several comments need to be addressed. Trollers are meat hunters???? Trolling wrecks lakes??? Those are two of the most rediculas statements I have ever read on any of the 4 forums I visit. There are some issues with Wisconsin and Michigan Boundry waters where Trolling is legal if you hold a Michigan license. I troll there and release every Musky caught. At 50 I cant cast all day and will be #*^@ed if I am going to go home when tired. Answer? Troll for a while. Have a sandwich, study the lake contour lines. Trolling is a great way to discover good casting spots. I dont know why Vilas county has no trolling and frankly dont care. Just so they leave it there. Dont push that garbage on the rest of us . Trolling is ethical, safe,and a great way to cover water on any lake. Vilas has Row trolling and there are guys and Gals that are good at it. Thats real cool. I am glad they do it that way. But there is no call or reason to condemn it any where else.
There have been several incedents at one of the Michigan and Vilas county lakes where a mans truck(paintjob) was destroyed by somone with a key. This happened after an argument on the lake between a Vilas County Musky fisherman and a Michigan Musky fisherman. The argument was whether or not the Michigan angler has the right to troll the lake. Border regulations state that you are bound to the regulations of the license you hold. So guess what?? Michigan anglers can and do troll in all border lakes that share water with Vilas county. Wisconsin anglers can purchase a Michigan License and troll those lakes as well. So if you want to troll in Vilas County ,go to the border lakes and buy a Michigan license.
Vilas county has a lot of lakes and a lots history. So leave it there. Kingfisher |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | Trolling doesn't kill fish, anglers do. If an angler has a kill mentality they'll kill muskies on jigs, topwater, dawgs, etc.
And of course, effectively trolling is as easy as effectively sucker fishing: Throw a line off the side and take off.
The referrence to the backtrolling days of the early 90's is misleading. A lot of fish were also killed casting as well as trolling and live bait fishing. Many guides kept fish, didn't matter how they were caught. Things have changed.
It's interesting how someone running a 4 stroke at 2mph will disrupt the 'small' lake feel and destroy the Northwoods aesthetics, but the wave runners, skiers, pleasure-boaters are just a part of the landscape. The single hook sucker guys that dot the shorelines every fall really hate trolling too.
If it's hook and line, legal, and the fish are releasable, who cares?
"If overharvest is a concern, lower the bag limits and raise the size limits. Banning a sportfishing technique is ridiculous." -Quote from a letter I recieved from the InFisherman staff in 93 in regards to the ban on trolling.
JS
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| There are plenty of lakes in Wisconsin where one can troll legally. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the 'class' of the fishery. There are class A waters you can troll just as there are class B and C waters you can troll. With about 800 individual waters in the state that have fishable musky populations, I think it's great that there are so many different types that allow different opportunities and experiences. Wherever you are in the state, you don't have tyo go far to find a water to troll on, just as you don't have to go far to find a water with a higher size limit. There are over 200 lakes in Wisconsin with a 40" or higher limit on muskies, way more trophy waters than any other state provides. One size (or law) definitely doesn't fit all. |
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| Trolling creates lakes with bigger fish.....I cannot think of a single lake that trolling is not allowed on that produces larger fish than lakes where it is legal...clearly trolling increases the size of the fish in the lake.... |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Ben, that is REALLY funny. |
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| Some people think that trolling is so easy that is will wreck the lake and take all the fish out of it. While trolling can be simply dragging a bait behind the boat to do it right take quite a bit of skill.
Kingfisher, You can troll in a MI/WI boundry lake with a WI liscence also but you can only troll on the MI sign. I have trolled LVD and everytime I do it I have people scream at me that it's illegal, at first I tried to explain it to them but know I just ignore them. |
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| sworrall - 9/25/2008 9:25 PM
Ben, that is REALLY funny.
Why would you call that really funny? That is the wave causes wind argument wearing pajamas and lipstick.  |
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| Matt DeVos - 9/25/2008 4:55 PM
I don't understand how trolling would "wreak havoc" on smaller lakes...or any lake for that matter. Perhaps you could provide a couple of examples of other waters where trolling, as a specific fishing method, was shown to have "wreaked havoc" on a certain fishery? I would think it would be pretty easy to come up with a few, since trolling is allowed on virtually all lakes/water bodies on Planet Earth, except N. WI....
Long post, so let me split it and respond to one portion at a time. I could give you examples, and I am sure others on this board could quickly add lakes to that list where it would wreak havoc on the lake, and let me remind you, opening lakes to trolling opens all species up to trolling and frankly some lakes are easy to troll. If those lakes have a stockpile of trophy fish in any class, they can quickly be impacted to the point of drastically affecting the size profile in that lake in short order. Many lakes cary big fish simply because the big fish have a refuge area that is difficult for anglers to easily access. This can be more than one class of fish. Trolling can take away the refuge on some of the smaller lakes and fish harvest does occur in many of WI lakes and fish harvest of trophy. There is also the question of buzzing motors, and since trolling is allowed speed trolling also can become an issue with shoreline erosion and habitat degradement from increase wakes. Someone mentioned personal watercraft, well they are bothersome enough that a lot of counties have laws now limiting the hours of usage.
Why again is it a bad thing to allow anglers a perfectly safe and ethical method to catch fish?
Why is it a bad thing to keep it limited to the many waters alread available to trolling? Actually I think Vilas, Oneida etc that ban motor trolling are in fact giving themselves an advertising point if they ever care to use it. BTW, I don't see anyone recommending banning all trolling though yes, I would vote for it.
And don't tell me "because its too easy" on some lakes. That argument cuts both ways. As you say, some lakes in Vilas are certainly better suited for trolling, and it would be a productive method of fishing. But then, some lakes are better suited for casting. If you want to use that logic, then it would follow that we need to ban casting on the lakes that are most suited for casting.
It IS too easy on some lakes, and should be restricted for the reasons I listed above. No musky fishing is exactly rocket science to start with, but trolling is real easy on some lakes and don't think it doesn't impact the fishery on big lakes either, it can. And we have a lake in KY that it has impacted imo, and it is easy to troll.
From a philosophical standpoint, I tend to disagree with arbitrary, governmental limitations/encroachments on fishing/hunting rights. Give me a solid scientific reason to justify a trolling ban (where trolling is distinguished from other legal methods of angling) and I'm definitely willing to listen.
You better pay attention to philosophical standpoints. The government certainly does. Should I ask you as to what the science is, prohibitting using nets and shallow barb spears as fishing methods? Or shining and snagging, is there really a scientific arguement against using those methods? I don't mind fish having seasonal sanctuary, being restricted on both harvest and methods used to effect harvest, and I don't mind fish have sanctuary created spatially by the difficulty of straining parts of their environment. I feel like a lot of what is involved with fishing and hunting has little to do with science. It is ok with me for those things to exist, and fish I never see to exist. I am happy that some guys find a new frontier fishing suspended muskies over deep water basins, and I believe that those willing to learn that, should reap the rewards of their learning and time investment. I am not overly fond of any schlupp in a power boat being able to fish all over the deep water basins where sanctuary once existed, with simply the turn of a key or the pull of a rope, and I would imagine they would be disappointed also.
Otherwise, I have difficulty grasping the basis for the trolling ban as anything other than purely traditional.
I fish in NE WI because of wilderness, nature esthetics, not because I think it is scientifically merritted. So, why should those areas, benefitting from my cash outflow, not consider my reasons for going up there when they pass laws regulating fishing? Just a question.
Edited by firstsixfeet 9/25/2008 10:54 PM
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| We can troll all waters here in IL, and guess what? Our waters aren't "wrecked" and in my opinion, IL produces better quality average fish than WI. Sometimes, pleasure traffic is so bad, trolling is the only way to effectively fish, and there are plenty of WI waters that are similar. The anti-trolling WI crowd are just elitists, who want to control their little corner of the world. The way to fight that is simply not to fish those waters, leave the 34" fish to those guys and fish big fish waters elsewhere. Don't get me wrong, I love fishing in WI, but I call it "sight fishing." I go there to look at the pretty water, loons, trees, etc., not necessarily for big fish. |
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Location: Lake Country, Wisconsin | it's kinda funny that the place that puts out some of the smallest muskies out there is one of the last places that bans motor trolling and thinks that will help their cause. I guess I'm missing something here....
From my experiences trolling, I have little doubt I would go out there and catch nothing but seaweed and pike  |
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Location: Muskegon Michigan | Every one of the most respected and held up as the best Musky fisherman in the world except maybe Mesikomer has trolled or done video on trolling. Seric,Johnson, Pearson, Lazarus, Maina, Ramsel,LeBlanc,Lawton, and there are many more. These are the guys that this industry holds up as the best of the best and they all troll. This Idea that trolling is just tossing a bait out the back and taking off is ludicris. I guess you could just do that and fail but I like to use my tools. I like to map out lakes with my Gps as I troll the breaks looking for those sweet spots to cast. Trolling is a great tool to locate points and inside turns,weed beds and other structure. The areas in Wisconsin closed to trolling dont matter to me. I dont go there for that reason. They dont get my tourist money. That goes where I can fish the way I like to fish. My wife and I have been fishing muskies for 8 years together now and I have been fishing them for 12 years myself. I have caught them casting,trolling and with live bait. You see for me I need the whole thing ,I need it all and I want it all. I want a sucker on a short line ,I want a top water strike and want a drag screaming while I am trolling.
You could say the same thing about deer hunting eh Vilas?? Better ban guns because its too easy eh?? Be a man cast a carrot or better yet jump out of a tree with a knife in your teeth. Guns wreck the woods. Sound stupid yet? And this same bunch thinks a J hook kills fish too. Better ban J hooks because they are killers. You might as well just say dont fish for Muskies in Our state.
Well Vilas, the truth is trolling doesnt hurt anything. J hooks dont kill fish people do. The more you ban the less you will be loved and when you close your mind you also close your eyes. A great sportsman once said, Use a little common sense and leave only footprints. The question is how big is YOUR footprint on the resource. Kingfisher |
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| The only thing I want to say here is why and how the trolling ban came about. I wasn't living here at the time, but heard this firsthand while having a beer with Roger Sabota and Lou Eich. They were here when it was banned.
Several people figured out how to backtroll and many, many 30 lbers were being caught and kept. Then more people figured out how to back troll and more 30 lbers were being kept. Trig Solberg who was on the DNR board at the time fast tracked a ban on trolling in Vilas and Oneida Co in an attempt to protect the big fish from over harvest and now we have the postion fishing rule.
Don't know if it is true, but Roger and Lou have been around the musky fishing industry for more years than a lot of us have even been alive. |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i lease my office from Trig and will ask him next time i see him. i've always been against it and for the traditional vote ... no particular reason, just don't like to be casting and have a troller come along behind or beside me which i've found to be pretty typical when fishing trolling lakes.
i totally agree with you though jason on the more disruptive influence of jetskis, pontoons and pleasure-boaters to the quiet feeling of the northwoods lakes.
number of lines would be the key to this because without i can see lots of pontoon setups on some of the lakes here that might be at least to me offensive.
question ... it motor trolling went away, what would the future of row-trolling be? |
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| Seriously, nobody should ever be allowed to wear pajamas and lipstick! Freaky. |
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Posts: 663
| It is possible to get a trolling permit from the DNR for disabled individuals. However, I've seem some pretty questionable cases of that when a reasonably fit looking guy hops out of his car runs around all over the place getting his rig ready and then pulls the "disabled" card so he can troll. Just like anything there are those who will play the system to get what they want.
Regarding LVD I've had talks with the wardens from both states whos job it is to enforce the rules. Michigan guy said no problem and then talked with the Wisconsin warden. He also said no problem and when questioned directly on the deal about which side of the line you have to be on he said it didn't matter. So that's all I know. I don't troll on LVD but as of this discussion last year neither warden had a problem with it.
Edited by Pete Stoltman 9/26/2008 9:26 AM
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| Motor trolling was in effect before backtrolling became an issue. The walleye guys invented backtrolling, but it was really misnamed, because it was really position fishing. Using the motor to stay on a piece of structure, the spot on the spot, if you will. Eventually, the muskie guides figured out that actually trolling in reverse, backtrolling, was legal, and a good way to skirt the no motor trolling law. The law was reworked after that, to the present mess of wording we have now.
I agree with tradition being the reason we still ave no motor trolling in those counties. Do I care? No. I care when others would try to restrict me from trolling in the lakes I can legally troll in now. Not just banning it, but trying to limit the number of lines I can use.
As for wrecking the lake? Nonsense. I've never hooked fish as deeply trolling, as I have casting. I release every fish I catch, either way. I am no more predisposed to keeping a trolled fish, as a fish caught casting. And I think most, if not all, C&R conscious angler fel the same.
As for being easy? Only the ignorant would say that. If you are that opposed to trolling, you've probably never done it. At least correctly, which means you don't have a clue. It's a lot more than just dragging a lure around the lake.
Leave the no trolling up there. I don't care one way or the other. And I agree with Ben. Look at Green Bay, Marinette, Mille Lacs, Vermillion, St Claire, Georgian Bay, etc. All big fish waters. All allow trolling.
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| "Look at Green Bay, Marinette, Mille Lacs, Vermillion, St Claire, Georgian Bay, etc. All big fish waters. All allow trolling. "
They also all have size limits that are well over the statewide 34" size limit in WI. Then there's the fact that you are trying to compare them to lakes that are 200 acres, rely 100% on natural reproduction, and only have quality fish in them because practically nobody fishes there.
I have to laugh at the people who say "trolling won't affect the lake". Many of those same people are bitching about the additional pressure their favorite lakes are seeing. Add in a method of fishing where you can have multiple lines out and cover water at 5x the rate you can cover casting, reaching fish that you simply cannot cast at effectively, and you say it "won't affect the fishery"? But somehow three more boats at the landing on a Saturday DOES? (but only when its someone with out of state plates, right?)
If trolling has no effect on the fishery, why are so many guys complaining about the "pontoon trollers" in MN?
Stalker... You say our waters aren't "wrecked" here in IL? Compared to what? Pretty sure you fish the Fox Chain, don't you? I can't imagine anyone who has fished the Fox Chain more than a few times, and spent any time at all fishing in Vilas County could possibly say our fisheries are fine down here. You said it yourself -- sometimes the waters are so crowded the only way you can actually catch a fish is trolling.
Don't get me wrong, I like trolling. I've done it enough to realize that it's not just dragging baits around the lake. You have to know what baits to run, at what depths, how much line out, where in the spread to put them so they run where you want them in relation to the structure. Then you have to know the structure well enough to put the boat where it nees to be, and actually put the baits where they need to go... And I have no problem with trolling on lakes that are substantial enough, that recieve plenty of stocking, and have decent size limits. But a lake that's 150 acres and might have 50 muskies in the whole lake, with a 34" size limit on top of that? Three guys with a pontoon boat and a bag of shore lunch could turn a little gem into the dead sea in one summer.
I think it pretty simple -- there's a little corner of WI where you can't troll unless you want to row. If you don't like that, there's 600 other lakes in the state where you can fish.
And Sloan... Come on. Why do you think they have that 11:00 - 5:00 only (or whatever the times are), 200 feet from shore only, etc. rule? Yes, the jet skis and pleasure boaters are a fact of life, and the lakes DO belong to everyone. But are you really trying to tell me that jet ski's whizzing around the lake aren't wrecking the quiet northwoods experience for a lot of people? Wait, that's right -- you fish in Minocqua, nevermind
Edited by esoxaddict 9/26/2008 11:27 AM
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Location: New London, Wisconsin | "We can troll all waters here in IL, and guess what? Our waters aren't "wrecked" and in my opinion, IL produces better quality average fish than WI. Sometimes, pleasure traffic is so bad, trolling is the only way to effectively fish, and there are plenty of WI waters that are similar. The anti-trolling WI crowd are just elitists, who want to control their little corner of the world. The way to fight that is simply not to fish those waters, leave the 34" fish to those guys and fish big fish waters elsewhere. Don't get me wrong, I love fishing in WI, but I call it "sight fishing." I go there to look at the pretty water, loons, trees, etc., not necessarily for big fish."
WOW, now this is a funny post. Talk about "broadbrushing and stereotyping" our little corner of the world. While "sight fishing" I've done quite well for myself this season. I can't imagine fishing muskies on ugly water, no loons or trees etc...There's a lot to be said for aesthetics while fishing, in my opinion. Give it a try sometime and you'll be suprised how peaceful it is without a motor running (cheaper too, using less gas) all the while having a chance at many fish larger than 34". Vilas County Musky Marathon, for example, shows a number of fish larger than 34", and that's just the people who took the time to register.
Good luck this fall, regardless of how you choose to fish. In the end, we all need to stick together as fishermen and women.
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