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Posts: 2384
Location: On the X that marks the mucky spot | I've been musing with some friends and thought I'd throw something out.
We in MN (and anyone who's fishing here) are all benefiting from the work that others did 20-30 years ago. At that time if you wanted to go muskie fishing in MN you were more then likely traveling to the Walker area. At that time less then 2% of all anglers fished muskies. At that time a much larger % of people who fished muskies were in MI, and a larger % of those members contributed. During this time the DNR and MI members really put forth the effort to raise the bar, work together and expand the fishery like no other state has in recent times.
Fast forward 20 years.
-Now we have 3x the lakes that hold muskies.
-We have 80% more fishermen.
-Lakes that have "poor" forage are kicking out upper 40-50" fish.
-Most people have never fished Leech, Cass, Winnie, etc and probably couldn't even tell you how to get to one of those lakes.
-Mille Lac and Vermillion are kicking out fish that rival the state record on a semi regular basis.
The state is at a crossroads of sorts now. On the one hand the lakes we're all enjoying are peaking or have already crested out. On the other:
-There are more organizations that are trying to kill the current program much less the expansion of the resource.
-The DNR budget is in a crises and HUGE cuts are going to be happening in the immediate future and the long term looks worse.
-The Dark House folks are coming out of the nursing home to throw one last wrench into things before they pass on.
All this is happening and nobody seems to care.
-When asked to buy a $2 raffle ticket to stock fish muskie fishermen say no.
-When asked to attend a tournament, people say they'd rather fish "other lakes that have more fish" ( I wonder how they got there).
-When asked to buy a banquet ticket people say "I don't want to come on a Friday" (in the middle of Feb no less).
-When asked to send a 5 sentence email to support the DNR's new program people "don't have time".
-When asked to attend a town hall meeting to get their own backyard stocked with muskies people are nowhere to be found. Even then they're told about it in 1st person.
All this and the average muskie fisherman spends 30 days on the water and over $5000 a year on muskie fishing. Granted there are some people who don't fit in with this broad paint brush, but they seem to be the exception (not trying to toot my horn at all BTW).
Are we spoiled with the fishery we have?
Edited by Muskie Treats 6/20/2008 11:32 AM
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The new fishermen who are reaping the benefits of the past work and not getting involved are definately spoiled.
They're also pretty selfish.
I see guys on my local waters on a regular basis, guys who never fished for them until these new fisheries were made.
They've been reaping the benefits of their new found passion and won't join the local MI club, won't but raffle tickets and won't lift a finger to help out when it's time for the public meetings that can decide our future in MN. When you see them on the water they want to know what the fish are biting on. I used to be more cordial, but now they all just bite on hooks when asked.
Seems to be a lot of thankless people out there.
JS
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Posts: 661
Location: Roscoe IL | You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.
Some may just want to go fishing & not get all wrapped up in the club scene. If they purchase a fishing license they do contribute in a small way. I would not hold anything against anyone for not geting involved. They may not have the passion you have & may just be lucky they can even make it to the lake without seeking legal representation when they get home.
Fishing is a sport that is supposed to make you feel spoiled. I feel lucky & spoiled every time I get time on the water. Especially these days when it is harder to find the time.
If you have the skills & passion to get involved & want to make a difference. Hey, thats great & I wish you well. But to hold it against other anglers that just want to fish & go home?
Now go sell some screws you cry baby! 
Love Mike @ Shakeproof
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Posts: 909
| Just like evey oranization! You got a handful of guys who do everything, and the rest of the world (Usually sittin on a bar stool somewhere) to [complain] at you about how your doin it wrong! "BEEN THERE DONE THAT"  |
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Location: Athens, Ohio | Ah, yes, 24/7: I see it in organizations I'm involved with, too.
Shawn, God Bless You! for the work you've been doing lately on the Minnesota plan. Please let us Mn-tourist types kow what we can do to help - sometimes the state is more concerned with its incoming tourist dollars than taxes paid by its citizens.
I know when I started fishing muskies, I'd read all these tales on the Internet about folks getting one after another after another. Well, I've worked hard for each of my fish, and certainly want opportunities to be present for future generations to do the same. Hang in there and keep at them, and thank you again. m |
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Posts: 313
Location: On your favorite spot | spoiled by what? too many lakes? too much room to fish? granted the fishery is top-notch - shouldn't this be the norm? with all due respect - the fishermen who just fish and don't get involved are spoiled - most of us are working really hard to keep making things better.
you wonder why guys like Skarie and others come off a little jaded? they've been fighting tooth and nail to get what we've got today. they have to. plenty of people at the meeting where the guides tell you how to catch fish, not so many at the stocking committee meetings.
if we get complacent and start thinking we've got it made we'll lose it all to those who would have it otherwise. there is no middle ground. good thread.
Edited by Marc J 6/20/2008 2:15 PM
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Posts: 3147
| couple years back hardlyy any muskie anglers showed up from the twin citys to support the French lake spearing ban open public meeting,,,however bumped into ALOT of familiar musky faces at the Cabelas sidewalk tent sale in Owatonna which is just has far or farther then French lake,,wont show up to support a muskie lake but will come if theres a chance to save 40% on rain gear
Edited by happy hooker 6/20/2008 2:23 PM
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Posts: 227
Location: New Brighton, MN | I feel blessed and lucky everytime I am on the water, but I don't feel spoiled....
That would imply a level of success.
I wonder, what are your expectations? I am new to the sport, 30 years old, never will keep a muskie, and (in my opinion) am not a detriment to muskie fishing.
What are your suggestions?
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Posts: 734
Location: Watertown, MN | Yes, enjoying the work of many great leaders of MI and the MN DNR.
We all want more waters and more muskies, and we don't want to put forth the collective effort to support this. As the DNR budget is cut that will just put more pressure on us to support the stocking of MN water if want to expand or maintain the fisheries.
Was at the metro tournament last saturday, we had boat for the raffle and the wrapped truck for the Frank Schnieder tournament. 500 participants showed up you would have tought you could have easily sold 500 tickets, not close($2 a ticket). In this world you will se the people who will carry the communittee, and those along for the ride. Funny thing is that I ran into Don Kampen from WI Rapids, who came over to fish this event.
Willis, I think the point is that if you fish the metro water, alot of what you have to fish is because of MI and the DNR, MI raising money to stock fish in the metro, White Bear is lake that got started because of John Newmans years of fighting with the DNR about what it could be, most fish stocked in WB is strickly MI and Hartmans fish, what kind of fishery has that lake become. This year we are pushing to stock $30,000 of fish into MN waters, Shawn and Georgle Selcke andy many more, thank god they must not have a first job, because they spend hours at the DNR and other special interest meeting trying to defend Muskies and the stocking and introduction of new waters. Show up at Twin Cities musky inc meeting and find out all what is going on in the MN Muskie world, alot more going on behind the scenes. Maybe you will find something that you will like to get involved with.
Troyz
Edited by Troyz. 6/20/2008 3:16 PM
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Posts: 551
Location: Columbus, Georgia | I agree with Willis.
"Spoiled" implies that one has had it different (the old timers) and now the fish might be jumping into the boat.
Here on Cave Run the fish are there ... but one must work very hard to catch them.
Craig
Edited by cjrich 6/20/2008 3:18 PM
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Posts: 734
Location: Watertown, MN | Craig yes spoiled would be the correct term if you want compare today to 20 years ago.
There was no real metro lake to fish, you would have had to drive 3 hours to find a musky lake, know there is 20+ lakes in metro area. Tonka and become one top lakes in the STate, that Many PMTT anglers love to come and fish when coming from their home states.
If you do not want to support that is fine, but don't complain about what becomes of the fisheries and what lakes are stocked, or the excess pressure because new lakes are not being developed, because a handful of musky guys show up at meeting to determine the future of the fisheries.
I am suprised your not more involved in your club. with Cave being a put and take fishery. That your club would find it important to keep the stocking going and making sure the DNR keeps the lake stocking goals. When they stop or reduce stockings because lack of $$$ because of budget cuts what will happen to Cave.
Troyz |
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Posts: 580
| First off, let me just say kudos to those who have worked their tail off in the name of service to the resource—helping to create tremendous public fisheries. Respect needs to be given where it’s due, and the MI clubs and other individuals who dedicate their time, passion, and talents to helping the resource deserve it.
With that said, and I mean it sincerely, I’m not sure that presenting the message in this manner is very productive. I don’t know the inner workings of the funding for MN’s natural resources, DNR, etc, but the muskie fishery is a public resource, and no doubt, it couldn’t exist without public funding from John Q. Taxpayer—which includes all the spoiled and ungrateful anglers who are being referring to. Sure, the dedication and efforts of certain individuals and clubs have obviously played an important and vital role, but you can’t expect every average citizen/angler who wishes to take advantage of the public resource to have that same level of commitment and dedication. Not every muskie angler needs to be a member of “the club”. And then labeling the average angler as ungrateful and calling them “spoiled” isn’t the best way to generate warm and fuzzy feelings. Everyone buying fishing license has the “right” to fish for muskies. The way the message is coming off, it is sounding a little bit like you folks consider these fisheries to be “your” fisheries, rather than the public resource that it actually is.
It’s extremely important to try and get your message out, and create awareness to these issues, and thereafter and thereby, generate support. But geez, Skarie, you make it sound like you are purposefully rude to anyone who isn’t a member of “the club”. That sounds an awful lot like elitism, and it’s a pretty poor way to get more folks into “the club”...who knows, it might even turn some people off to muskie fishing in general. There are probably better ways to generate interest and support…perhaps by having a more positive approach, rather than trying to guilt people into action. Remember, essentially, you’re trying to sell something here.
All I’m really saying is don’t forget the old adage regarding attracting more worker bees with honey……
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Posts: 1168
| Some are spoiled some aren't. Muskie fishing is getting better and better with more water, more known about these fish from a biological standpoint and so on....
You can sniff out those who are spoiled a mile away. They are being spoon fed information about locations and can't think on their own when you need to think a little creatively to find active fish. Or they've always had good equipment to run around in instead of begging to hop in someone's boat or had to fish out of a leaky skiff that would be better off sitting on someone's front yard with daisies planted in it. It's tough fishing with that type because you ask for input and it's always; "so and so would go here, so and so would go there..." screw that, tell me what YOU think, not what someone else would do. Maybe it's not so much spoiled as much as it is an overinflated ego that is trumped up by the hard work and experience of others spoonfeeding the wannabe or never-will-be all that he knows.
A couple of nights ago a good friend and old time muskie fishermen summed it up pretty well. "Sometimes these fish eat that chunk of wood you put in front of them, sometime they don't. This isn't a strategical game of chess as much as it is luck, so put yourself in a spot to be lucky and if you forget about luck shining on yourside then you're either spoiled or you have a serious ego problem." |
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Posts: 3867
| Excellet post, Screw Dude. Excellent and well-considered responses, for the most part.
I've fished in MN only a few times over the past few years, and I'm not up to speed on the politics of the issue in the state. But I can still maybe do something about it.......
Isn't Al Frankin currently running for a senate spot in MN? If he wins I'll drop him a note about the issue and my opinion regarding such. He'll listen to me, we're both Deadheads. Deadheads stick together, we share a vision of "things as they are" rarely found outside Deadhead/hippie circles, right Mikie? (Worrall sees the same vision as well, he knows the deal.)
So, stand by.....
Ranger
Edited by Ranger 6/20/2008 4:51 PM
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| I think the message is right on point and it hit home with me. I do NOTHING to contribute other than buy a license, pay taxes and send a letter or email on occasion. The only "work" I've put into this is going to the DNR office in St. Paul to voice my opinion about stocking Gull Lake. This honestly made me look in the mirror. The mesage is clear as a bell to me. I can guarantee you won't hear me complain about a thing unless I start to participate in the process more. I think the way this was presented and the message are exactly where they need to be. We need to start taking care of ourselves and not expect others to do it for us. |
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Posts: 3867
| Agreed, Parker-Dude. Taking care of ourselves mandates educating our elected leadership and demanding action.
Even Deadheads have a voice.
Edited by Ranger 6/20/2008 5:50 PM
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| I don't think we are spoiled at all. I really believe if you were not fishing at least 15 years ago, you are missing out on what muskie fishing was all about. It is so commercialized and socially regulated, it is more of a sorority than a fraternity at this point...I guess you could feel spoiled, it depends on what is important to you...Ben |
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Posts: 299
Location: Nowheresville, MN | Indeed. Excellent post, well written and thought provoking. Matt D. also had an excellent perspective. Two opposing thoughts that couldn't be more true. However, as Treats said, the latter wouldn't even have a viewpoint if not for those that have worked on creating and protecting theses fisheries. Oh, and Troy, so far Tonka SUCKS!:) |
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | Worrall's a Deadhead? I've always thought of him more as a Paul Simon/Neil Diamond sort of guy. He's that smooth.
Kevin
I hope their having fun. |
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| Can someone tell me the last time the MN fishery was expanded? I am interested in say the last five lakes and the first year they were stocked. |
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Posts: 32885
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Hopeful,
Two sides to every coin, two sides...
It's always, and I mean alway been a few who 'get it done' to the benefit of the many. Human nature. And in most cases, it's a good thing, too many good folks crashing around in the kitchen ruins a good cook's day. Just send money, like Matt said, sorta.
There will always be those who work long and hard to preserve and improve our lives all the way around, and those who live in that benefit with no clue at all who done it. There are those who are aware of who helps make our Muskie angling better and more enjoyable, and for more reasons than are listable here, can't help much. Treats, we're actually in pretty good shape these days...at least we can get the word out when help is needed, fast and efficiently. Every one of us have to decide what we are able to do, and then do it without any expectation of much fanfare.
No sorority here in Northern Wisconsin, Ben, just folks looking to enjoy a day on the water and mebbe in the process catch a Muskie or two. As was so wisely stated, paraphrasing here... 'what one believes is real is based upon one's perception'.
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Location: The Yahara Chain | Mr. DeVos with the best post that I have scene in a long time. |
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Posts: 280
| Matt DeVos......absolutely right on the money. Great post!!
Edited by fins355 6/21/2008 6:42 AM
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Posts: 1245
Location: Madtown, WI | Its no wonder DeVos is a Lawyer
Nice Post Matt.
My first reaction..."ARE YOU SERIOUS!"
We are bent about people reaping the rewards of others hard work for a fishery...
I got news, there are a LOT more important things in life than muskie fishing that you should be pissed about people riding on the coat tails of others....
For example...those that made this country what it is. I am being generic here, because there are a lot of different avenues that lead to this great country. I mean from the armed services down to the great pioneers that went west to establish towns.
And now you have poeple sitting on welfare NOT trying to work, NOT trying to better their life...and yet complain.
OR
Not at all worried about this up coming election....not getting involved to REALLY learn the candidates etc.
Now this to me puts it into perspective as to what we REALLY should be upset about....As worrall said...its human nature that people take for granted what they have.
So I guess before you get your feathers all ruffled because some guys are reaping the hard work of others in the developed muskie fishery...look in the mirror and decide if you really are doing the same thing...but for a lot MORE important issues....
We are all guilty to some extent....so reminds me of the throwing rocks in a glass house statement...
Cory |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | i'll vote the Devos-Painter ticket on this one. wish i could have gotten onto the thread earlier to elicit the same response. for anyone who reads those two posts and doesn't "get-it" ... there is a place for you which is among the elite, proud and selfish who don't get the purpose for all of the work. it's for the "resource" and for the "future" and not for the few members who "deserve".
there are anonymous contributors who deserve much more credit ... but that's just it ... they'll never get it because they don't want it. it wasn't why they got involved in the first place. these are the ones who really "deserve" the credit. to the score-keepers who work thankless hours ... tough. re-evaluate why you do what you do ... would you do it if nobody gives a rip but just because it's the right thing to do? or do you do it to demand the credit and respect? |
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Posts: 280
| WOW!!
Great stuff!
Not much I can really add except my total agreement.
C. Painter.....outstanding! Nice to compare on a higher level.
Johnnysled.....I'm with you about the "score keepers". Good post.!
Matt DeVos......you said a mouthful!! Thanks!
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| The only thing that turns me off from musky fishing is all the thought I put into it these days...not sure if it's worth all that brain power considering I seemed to do just as good when I was younger and dumber. |
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| eh I sorta take that last post back...it's not like I am going out trying to do "better"...know what I mean? meh...now I'm thinking TOO MUCH about it again..dammit |
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| Steve, I probably should not have generalized everyone into the sorority. The what have you done for me lately seems to mostly reside in MN, and not everyone is involved. I just recall helping out with "no more muskies" and other issues that help was asked for only to watch the PMTT get railroaded when they originally went to MN by the same guys that consistently ask for help. I personally feel have fished most if not all of the muskies natural range at this point, that the best fishing and biggest potential for large fish do not reside in these newly evolved fisheries. The ones that have managed to not be managed seem to have turned out fine. Either way I can and do fish in MN without feeling at all "guilty" for not playing a bigger part. This idea of ownership through amount of time and effort put in is silly.
If doing this work gives someone more right to fish it, volunteer and donation take on a new definition. I prefer to think of them in their original context...We are spoiled in the sense that I can read and post this from an i-phone after mountain biking and getting ready to do a bit of trout fishing. Also if you find yourself in the Denver area, shoot me a PM I have no issue sharing what I have discovered out here so far....even if you did not actually do the leg work:)...Ben |
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Posts: 440
| I heard a sermon once that hit home and is seems to pertain.
"If a person does a good deed and then ASKS for a pat on the back did he/she actually do a good deed." |
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