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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Do you believe muskies become conditioned? For example, to seeing certain things over and over. |
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Posts: 129
Location: Milwaukee Wi | I think so i mean why not its there suroundings they have to have some memory |
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Posts: 193
Location: Mayer, MN | I say no, we give them too much credit.  |
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Posts: 8830
| I think so. You can "train" a goldfish to come to the edge of the tank when you walk up, that's conditioning... Stands to reason that muskies would have the same ability. I presume you are talking about lures/pressure, which obviously would work against us as anglers. On the other side of the coin, conditioning can probably work in our favor, when muskies become conditioned to seeing boats and learn to ignore them. |
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Posts: 1168
| Anglers are conditioned to think that muskies get conditioned. |
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Posts: 8830
| True, but if you do an internet search for "conditioned responses in fish" you'll find a whole lot of scientific studies that illustrate how various species of fish become conditioned to stimuli of many sorts. |
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Posts: 1168
| So where is the tipping point between conditioned fish and conditioned fishermen? When does one outweigh the other? The scientific studies are intriguing however those are in a controlled environment. Take a high traffic/pressure lake such as Pewaukee and will a fish be more easily conditioned there or in a lab? I don't doubt that fish do become wary of baits, I just feel that when it comes to conditioning we often fail to consider the human conditioning that also tends to occur.
Edited by ulbian 2/22/2008 1:00 PM
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| Darwinism and Natural Selection.
Yes they do. |
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Posts: 785
| I'd say no but I tell you what, when you go to a remote portage lake in Canada that has almost no fishing pressure and compare musky behavior there to lakes that see a lot of people its hard not to believe in conditioned fish.
They may not be smart but even ducks (fairly stupid creature) learn to avoid those big clumps (duck blinds) out in the marsh after they've been shot at a few times. |
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Posts: 159
Location: Stevens Point, WI | Absolutely. It's more than just an excuse to buy new lures, the fish remembers how that sky blue jackpot moved last time it went over her her head, and she might just follow it around this time instead of smacking it. Some of the little lakes like Bone and Mission and Deer have muskies that see 20 lures a day, and it's custom to see a bunch of follows without getting a hit until you find a way to work it that they haven't seen before. |
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Posts: 714
Location: Rhinelander, WI | As I wrote earlier on a different message board.
In my opinion conditioning is not a simple correlation to one item; it’s most likely the sum of the total environment. With a couple items peaking the positive or negative experience “memory”.
Conditioning does not have to be to the complicated level of training a dog. It could be as simple as “Mood Modification”. The more often an active fish is “messed with” the more likely it is to be come less aggressive. If a fish can be turned from aggressive to neutral or even negative by our actions it is being conditioned. Not to the level of Pavlov’s Dog, but defiantly to some actionable level. On the reverse side something that doesn’t trip a level of anxiety (flight response), and allows them to make the decision to commit to the offering could be very beneficial when dealing with pressured fish.
Remember were talking specific situations here, not every fish in the system. Some will always eat some wont. But if the goal is to have a chance at every fish encountered then conditioning should be thought about.
Nail A Pig!
MIke
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| When I leave the city to go to the country I see the same type of behavior in people vs. muskies in remote lakes vs. high pressure lakes:) Anyhow I don't think you can control enough variables to condition muskies in a lake. If you can figure out how to control the weather let me know I want to be your boat partner for sure. For example if you could teach a fish what a lure is, I bet with the right weather conditions it will still bite it.... |
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Posts: 8830
| Ulbian, this is just my theory; no scientific evidence to back this up:
We tend to think Muskies become conditioned to seeing lures and actually know they are lures, with hooks, attached to an angler on the other end. Obviously anthromorphism at its finest, there.
Conditioned responses are much more primitive than that, and exist only to serve the basic functions -- eat, survive (avoid being eaten) and reproduce. I'll use the example of double cowgirls to illustrate... something they hadn't quite seen, felt, or heard before that stimulates the lateral line, the visual, and auditory sense in a way that triggers a feeding response. Over time, it would stand to reason that these stimuli, paired together, will evoke enough unsucessful feeding responses that conditioning will occur, and muskies will be less apt to respond. Do they know what it is? I doubt that very much. But on some level, they have become conditioned to it and "know" that it's not food. But then they're predatory fish after all, they'll get hungry tomorrow and try to eat it anyway.
What I don't know is how long that conditioning takes, how many times it needs to happen, or perhaps more importantly how long is that conditioned response viable? Is it a week? A month? One season to the next? Forever?
I'll agree with you that as anglers we really tend to overemphasize conditioning. If it was the be all end all, baits like a Suick, Topraider, or bulldawg wouldn't catch fish anymore.
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| Visit any lake in MN during musky season and how could the fish not be conditioned to the bombardment of lures????? Its simply a no brainer. |
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Posts: 366
| I think that all creatures adapt and evolve to their surroundings and conditions as things change over really long periods of time. I feel like we humans really over estimate our impact on the world and our environment, especially for the fraction of time we've been around. Not saying we don't have an impact, but it seems to be the natural tendency to over exagerate our effects. I think that we can have an effect on individual fish or animals as they do employee survival instincts that react to predators and other threats for a limited amount of time, until those individuals are redirected or effected by other influences. At the same time I don't think anyone can deny the difference in fishing an untouched virgin canadian lake versus the average midwest reservoir and what we percieve as stupid fish versus the smart trained fish. Fish can be conditioned, yes, but by what and why is very debateable. Memory versus conditioning? Fish do have fish brains, so interpreting the hows and whys is nothing but educated guessing. We don't truly understand how the human mind works, let alone animals or fish, but amazing everyone seems to think that they do.
Ryan |
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Posts: 2067
| Steve Wright - 2/22/2008 1:17 PM
Visit any lake in MN during musky season and how could the fish not be conditioned to the bombardment of lures????? Its simply a no brainer.
So I am the 5th (or maybe the 50th  ) boat in line on Mille Lacs north end the fish I am just about to catch has seen exactly 1,239 DCG's go by her face today alone......oops its 5 minutes to moonrise fish on !!!! Nothing in muskie fishing is a no brainer....fish eat when they want to... |
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| Addict,
I'm not saying that muskies cannot be conditioned. My whole point is that we tend to overlook the conditioning that takes place in anglers. I guess it might also be lumped into the whole "self fulfilling prophecy" idea. What creates a confidence bait? Something you had success with earlier, right? So you throw that confidence bait more and more. Here's an example of conditioning with this.... In late fall a guy throwing topwater over weedflats because "that's where I moved one in July." There could have been a fish there in the fall, but there was absolutely no consideration given to seasonal patterns or movements. When we didn't see a fish on that area this guy attributed it to; "guys pound this spot all the time so the muskies holding here had to be spooked or bait shy." Again, no consideration given to seasonal movements.
My uncle used to fish muskie tournaments quite successfully. His go to technique was to fish channels and areas with heavy boat traffic. His idea was that those fish are so used to disturbances by jetskis, pontoons, boats, etc. that they will not be spooked by a bait going through them. Added to that was his simple comment of; "and no one fishes it because they think the fish are scared off by boat traffic when in fact they are used to it." So here he was tapping into a relatively unfished goldmine because no one else was on it due to the spook factor. In this instance I would say those fish were conditioned to our liking in that they were used to the heavy boat traffic. I've begun dabbling in areas that fit this description and it seems to hold true that the fish are not scared off by it, but the fishermen are. Hitting a few of these spots with trusted friends of mine they look at me like I've been sipping on grandpa's moonshine. They never gave it any thought because there was too much boat traffic, too much commotion. But those fish were consistently there and ready to eat. The reasons given why they wouldn't even think about areas like that suggests that they are conditioned not to fish it and in return missed out on a bonanza.
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Posts: 8830
| As far as how WE become conditioned? LOL, we're stupider than fish in that regard! You're absolutely right there. I do it too. Someone I trust tells me something, no matter how wacky it sounds, and I believe it because of who said it. PLENTY out there that is us being conditioned to believe one thing or another, when reality was little more than "casted lure to spot holding hungry fish"... I mean Jeeez, I even have a lucky hat. Lucky? HAT??? Doesn't get any dumber than that! |
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Posts: 1168
| esoxaddict - 2/22/2008 2:43 PM
As far as how WE become conditioned? LOL, we're stupider than fish in that regard!
That's probably a better way to put it..."humans are conditioned but it's called stupidity." hehehehe.
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Posts: 32927
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | No. |
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Posts: 159
Location: Stevens Point, WI | I like what you guys are saying about fishermen conditioning, but here's another thought. I grew up fishing trout and smallies in Wisconsin. I backpack to lakes in Montana and Idaho and catch a trout out of there, let it go, and the same trout turns right back around and eats my spinner 15 seconds after i released it. I've seen the same thing with smallmouth in some parts of Canada. Are these just genetically inferior fish that have yet to be eaten by a fisherman, or does it have something to do with them never seeing a lure before? Can we translate these events with trout and bass to muskies?
Edited by 12gauge 2/22/2008 2:23 PM
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Posts: 8830
| 12 gauge,
It's a bit of a matter of how long does conditioning take. I've caught fish (not muskies) several times, which would lead me to the same conclusions. But a bit of digging into the research thats out there proves that fish CAN become conditioned. The fact that the people that run the hatcheries have to wean the fish off pellets and transition them to live prey so they learn to hunt and not wait for handouts, I'd say that's all the proof you need right there. The fact that greater numbers of hatchery fish lack the predator aviodance skills needed to avoid being eaten is another wait on the "yes" side of the scale for me as well.
Steve, you say "no"? Care to elaborate? If I know you, you probably have some evidence or research in your back pocket.
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| Steve gives a whole seminar on this topic and it is quite convincing for sure. Also I don't think domesticating of a fish in the hatchery has much to do with conditioning. They are only tapping into the natural instincts that is already present in the fish when they attempt to switch the fishes diet. That really proves nothing...Now if they could make a wild fish stick to a pellet diet in a wild lake, I would consider that proof...but we both know that would not happen.... |
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| What about moving the conditioning discussion out of the 'they see 100 lures' a weekend context? I bet muskies are conditioned to spawn at a certain time and certain area. They proabably grow to learn what spots have the bait at what times etc, where to sit for the best eating oportunities. I wonder if 'instinct' is different than 'conditioned.' I wonder if instincts are different in hatchery fish versus wild ones. Stocked rainbows hear a boat coming and a series of loud bangs, it means the feed conveyor is about to start. Best way to get these fishthru the ice is punch holes until they come around. Sitting real quiet doesn't work as well. They're conditioned to know noise=man bring food pellets. I think muskies shying away from lures in general probably has a bit to do with a new hot one being on the shelves and being thrown more than the old hot one. A #5 Mepps still works, so do Cowgirls. Both wil always interest fish enough to put them in their mouth. Muskies are rarer to see and catch than bass or walleye. You can test theories on thirty bass a day. Muskie encounters are less common than with other fish, and rules and trends can seem a lot more obvious and important than they really are and vice versa. With lake trout, it's not uncommon for us to release sixty fish a wknd from two to thirty pounds from April thru June and they DO switch on and off colours and lure styles very, very cleary. You can run through 6 or 8 trout in quick order before that bait has to be switched out. You can usually come back to it later in the day but once they stop liking it, you may as well troll without hooks. In many areas, I can get a fish on withing five minutes of a bait change after beating an area thoroughly, its pretty amazing. Best way to get the fish going again is within a few minutes of a new colour, shape or style of bait going over the side. Same lead length, same speed, same depth, same side of the boat, same rod and reel. When a lot of fish are coming over the side, paterns,rules and generalizations are easier to make, in my opinion. I guided a season out of Red Lake ON a few years ago and the walleyes did the same thing.. catch 18 in a row on a twister, the fish stop, tie on a tube and start all over on another 18. |
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Posts: 32927
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | D&D has the right track going, read the last few lines about changing the lure...
Stimulous/response.
If the fish were 'conditioned' in the sense of the question here to do/not to do anything, C&R would not work because we would not recapture any muskies. |
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Posts: 1168
| Changing baits, colors, fish seeing many baits in a weekend or through the course of the season...and yet when a fish hits what I am throwing I end up thinking to myself; "why did that fish hit that bait at that time?" The stupidity in me makes me psychoanalyze a dang fish. I can't help it..
However, why do muskies strike? Hunger? Reaction? Fear? Pointer caught one in my boat on a bucktail that just hit the water. The blade couldn't have even started turning. So what made that fish hit? Was it ticked off that his bait landed on it's head?
Is there an advantage in focusing on what a muskie will eat or focusing on just ticking it off enough to strike? Getting away from the conditioning question...oh well. But I personally love those days where everything we've read in magazines are supposed to be "tough." Give me a post frontal bluebird sky day, toss a healthy algae bloom, and I'm stoked. You've got the water to yourself because people are "conditioned" to think that no muskie could be caught that day. Tactics are definately geared towards just harrassing them enough so that they go for the kill rather than go for the meal.
As for catching a fish over and over. It could be related to that fear response. I've had the same fish in my boat within 8 hours of each other. The second time I would contribute it to a fear response. The "I'm not hungry, I just want to kill whatever just made me mad" response. We're giving fish too much credit, their brains aren't that big but yet after 7 years of college and 2 degrees later I still feel the need to sit them down on the comfy couch and ask them what they are thinking so I can better understand the wave of emotions they had when they saw or felt that bait come into his or her domain. |
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Posts: 1504
Location: Oregon | I think without a doubt they become conditioned on pressured waters. I was watching a show the other night about saltwater predatory fish. When the predator fish were young they would repeteadly attempt to consume fish that were either poisonous or contained spines of some kind that prevented them from being swallowed. But once the predatory fish were adults, they no longer attempted to eat unsafe fish and would swim right next to them without displaying any interest in feeding whatsoever.
If fish are able to distinguish the difference between a "safe fish to eat" and a "not safe fish to eat" it seems logical that they could also learn to avoid hazardous fishing lures.
RM
Edited by RiverMan 2/22/2008 3:28 PM
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Posts: 32927
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | How many exposures does an individual Muskie have over it's lifetime to actually getting captured on THE SAME EXACT lure?
Describe 'conditioned' for me, does that mean they have 'learned' not to hit, or that they are more difficult to catch for some other reason?
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| How many of you out there have multiple DUI's? multiple speeding and parking tickets? Multiple marriages?
Conditioning does not mean you are going to take ONE experience and learn a life lesson from it. It may take many times for a fish being caught to figure out that the double bladed pink thing swimming in the water is not food. Did they eat it or attack it. there is a difference and a different topic.
All species over generations addapt to there surroundings and muskies are not different.
Once again, Charles Darwin and his take on Natural Selection sums it up pretty simply.
Yes conditioning exists. If you are switching patterns to catch fish then you are too.
Brian Maxey |
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Posts: 8830
| If there was a lake that had never been fished before, no human presence whatsoever, presumably anything small enough to eat that was moving in that water would be food, 100% of the time.
Oh a highly pressured lake, we have lots of lures, thrown by lots of anglers, a great deal of the time. Now, there is a fairly significant percentage of what's moving through the water that is not food.
"Exposure" doesn't have to be actually being caught on a lure in this case. The lure is there, whether the muskies in question eat it, swipe at it, follow it, or are simply aware of it going past there is a change in the environment that theoretically should alter their behavior.
So "conditioned" in this case I guess would be "less apt to try to eat a lure due to being repeatedly exposed to their presence in the environment."
Here's something I've noticed that maybe some others can comment on... When I am fishing the Yahara chain (Madison), I never have fish follow more than once. In places where there are far fewer anglers, I see the same fish on back to back casts, sometimes you can raise the same fish 4 or 5 times. Madison? I get one. And usually they don't even come all the way to the boat, much less follow a figure 8. Happens like that on the Fox Chain too. I suppose it could be coincidence, but it seems like the less a place gets fished the more interested the fish are in seeing what that lure is all about. |
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