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Posts: 282
Location: north west wisconsin | Just wondering what the rule is here.
If you hire a guide do you:
Fish the same water the next day or even after the guide drops you off
Ask the guide to mark a map for you
Bring your equipment, I know this is optional
Or are these things in some kind of unwritten rule of things you just shouldn't do?
Edited by floydss 2/21/2008 2:05 PM
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Posts: 8780
| 1. depends on the lake -- well known lake, yes. Laxe X type lake? No way, not without asking first. And I would be reluctant to ask depending on my relationship with that guide.
2. I'v always felt weird about that one, so I don't do it unless they offer first. If they offer, I will happily give them a map and a pen. (and a nice tip)
3. I bring my own stuff, because I'm comfortable with my rods and reels, and I sometimes fish left handed. BUT: I am very mindful about the fact that my stuff takes up space in someone else's boat, so I limit myself to a medium sized box and 2 rods. Bringing 3 lakewoods on a guide trip? Bad form. |
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Posts: 1316
Location: Madison, WI | 1. Yes, that's why normally why I hire a guide. I try to get them the first day or 2 into a long trip.
2. If the offer, yes please mark up a map, I've even had guides put some waypoints on my handheld.
3. I like using my own tackle, i've lost a few fish b/c of others tackle. I only want to blame myself if that situation comes up. As addict does, I bring 2 rods and normally a couple of plano boxes with suggested baits the guide recommends, plus a couple favorites. |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | I can answer those from a guide's perspective.
1. I expect you to fish the water I show you. If I was dead set against somebody else fishing it I wouldn't take you there. I have yet to hide water from clients, you are spending hard earned money on me, I am going to do everything I can to make you successful. I am accepting money from you, whatever you learn from me you paid for and can use as your own. I may ask that you not publicize water, but if I show it to you I expect you to fish it.
2. If we fish a lake I will by all means mark your map for you. In fact, I will mark maps up for you even if we haven't fished that particular lake that day. Again, you are paying me, make the most of it. I will allow a GPS in my boat as well. Again, if I didn't want you to fish the areas I wouldn't show them to you (this also has never happened). I get just as good a feeling from someone calling or emailing me that they boated fish off a spot I showed them, as I would if they caught the fish when they were in the boat with me. I am concerned about your success above all else.
3. The question about gear is personal to every client. If you have good equipment and would feel more comfortable using it, by all means use it. If I see that your equipment is not adequate for any reason, I will suggest that you use mine. I never tell clients not to bring anything they fell they might need or use. I let them all use my stuff as if it were their own.
Edited by nwild 2/21/2008 2:44 PM
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Posts: 282
Location: north west wisconsin | thank you all |
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Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Norm has said it so well I can only add a few more things.
Please feel free to bring your tackle when you hire a guide. I will go through it when we meet and suggest what to bring and what you will not need to bring with you. I encourage you to use my rods and reels because they are top of the line equipment. I will also tell you what lures you have are best and when they are best used on the lake we are fishing. Bringing your own tackle can be a problem with some smaller guide boats. I encourage you to bring it. I have more than enough storage space on my Ranger620VS.
As for marking a map. I always offer to do so and will tell you in advance to purchase one so I can mark up the spots we fished and the other good ones we didn't have time to hit.
GPS. By all means bring one if your out with me. I encourage it.
My guide service is to make you a better fishermen after your trip is over. Anything I can do to help you while your with me is my service. Muskies are hard enough to catch even if you know the spots and baits they are eating. Learning that is why you hire a guide.
Maybe some might think I am a little Extreme in my genorousity but thats how I run my service. Just like Norm!!
And "yes" I do see my past clients fishing the spots I showed them the day before. I ask how they are doing, suggest whats going to work and keep on guiding. Thats a guides job. We can find other water to fish or just fish behind the other clients. I have got clients fish while following past clients on numerous occations.
Fishing pressure effects the fishermen more than the fish. Once you believe that more fish will come into your boat. I learned that a long time ago.
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Posts: 1287
Location: WI | How much do they expect as far as tipping goes? Is it like 5%, 10%...is there a standard?
*I use the word "expect" loosely. |
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| I think most are spot on here. I will just add that out east, the guides will actually point out ahead of time that you are not to come back to the spots they take you to fish. It is for numerous reasons and if you want them to take you out, you should respect their way of doing business. However this is more of a North Eastern thing and they have numerous solid reasons behind it... |
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Posts: 13
Location: Cass Lake | Some folks tip, some don't...I just want my clients to hook, fight, and smile in their picures of their fish. If I get a tip it is just an added bonus to having the best career in the world. |
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Posts: 1287
Location: WI | BenR - 2/22/2008 4:55 PM
I think most are spot on here. I will just add that out east, the guides will actually point out ahead of time that you are not to come back to the spots they take you to fish. It is for numerous reasons and if you want them to take you out, you should respect their way of doing business. However this is more of a North Eastern thing and they have numerous solid reasons behind it...
That's rediculous. The whole reason I'm paying a guide is to learn new spots. I'm not paying to catch a fish, I can do that already. It's all about speeding up the learning curve on new water.
What are they going to do if you do go back? Tell you to leave? Ha! |
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Posts: 1287
Location: WI | Brian Jones - 2/22/2008 8:59 PM
Some folks tip, some don't...I just want my clients to hook, fight, and smile in their picures of their fish. If I get a tip it is just an added bonus to having the best career in the world.
Thanks for the answer. |
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| JKahler - 2/22/2008 9:05 PM
BenR - 2/22/2008 4:55 PM
I think most are spot on here. I will just add that out east, the guides will actually point out ahead of time that you are not to come back to the spots they take you to fish. It is for numerous reasons and if you want them to take you out, you should respect their way of doing business. However this is more of a North Eastern thing and they have numerous solid reasons behind it...
That's rediculous. The whole reason I'm paying a guide is to learn new spots. I'm not paying to catch a fish, I can do that already. It's all about speeding up the learning curve on new water.
What are they going to do if you do go back? Tell you to leave? Ha!
Actually you are paying them for a chance at an upper 50 inch fish which they can and do put people on at a regular basis. You also learn some great techniques that you would have not known otherwise. The local non-guiding population is a huge reason why you would not want to go back on your own. Tell you to leave..Ha Ha, they don't work that way. I would not suggest it and also the guide will get a bunch of problems from them as well if you came back. Either way this is discussed prior to the trip. You are getting a chance at fish that really do not exist in the midwest and that is how most folks out there treat it. It is a different game...Ben |
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Posts: 282
Location: north west wisconsin | So what are you saying that once a guide takes you to a spot, that he puts up no tresspassing signs then?? your post is confusing to me
The local non-guiding population is a huge reason why you would not want to go back on your own. Tell you to leave..Ha Ha, they don't work that way.
What are they the spot mafia??? what would they do whack me??? put a dead horse's head in my boat??
The way I see it is; No one owns the water ,
The only reason I asked was out of respect for the guide I hired, I was going to go back to the spots regardless but didnt know about the next day. |
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Posts: 2323
Location: Stevens Point, WI | floydss,
Those folks are better described as 'outfitters', not guides. |
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Posts: 282
Location: north west wisconsin | ty
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Posts: 1310
Location: Washington, PA | floydss, it's pretty well known that's how some guides on the Ottawa and St. Lawrence work. That's why I wouldn't hire them. I think it's ridiculous, but they do tell you up front. |
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| Any guide that works the Larry or ottawa will not take any locals out for that reason, the better guides wont even take out Canadians, and if they do there from the other end of the country |
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Posts: 2691
Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Believe it or not BenR is correct about out East on the Ottawa and St. Lawrence. Most of those guides run a tight lipped guide service. If you want to be going to the hot spots you better have them convinced that this is a once in a lifetime trip.
I got my two biggest fish out there and never mentioned the two monster I caught for over 5 years. I learned some great water and was in the iner circle with them because I was tight lipped. I would love to go back out but it would be a planned trip with "the boys" again. I would never take my rig or anyone else out there to fish. Just my RESPECT for the boys who took me in as one of their own.
Believe it or not tires on trucks and trailors have been slashed in parking lots. Picture all of your tires flat when you came back from a long day of fishing. It has happened. This happens all over with guides stepping on other guides area. Just ask Tony Grant about tires. He told me he has went through a bunch.
Some waters are just protected more than others. Always ask a guide these questions before you book them. Guides will be happy you asked and everything is in the open. I will offer anything I can do to make your trip with me the best it can be at the time and after your trip. You will be better prepaired the next times you hit the water I guided you on and other waters.
If I was to go back out East and hire a guide I would make sure they believe me that I would keep it quiet and the spots we fished would not be shared. That is how you get to the good zones. RESPECT thier spots and enjoy you chances to score one of the biggest fish you ever caught.
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| It's very clear some things are different about the way guide trips are conducted out east. If that's the accepted and 'normal' way to run a guide trip I don't really think there's anything wrong, as long as it's well communicated to the client and there is an agreed-upon understanding.
I run a trip the same as Norm. I explain thoroughly where we're fishing and why so the guest understands what's going on. The end of the trip usually ends with a map-marking session where I mark all the spots we fished together and also mark similar spots that we didn't hit. I'll coach the guest on where to go and what to try on the following days depending on current patterns, forecasted wind, etc. They end the day satisfied, with a a bunch of spots they just learned and a number of spots to explore on their own. GPS coordinates are not a big deal either. I expect tosee them again in the following days and that's fine; we'll wave and even swap reports if within shouting distance.
I really hope the client returns to a spot they got from me and has sucess. Catching a musky with a guide is great, but catching one on your own is even better. If someone boats one off a spot of mine, then I've really succeeded. Some of the best, most thankful e-mails come from guys who were excited that they could go out on their own and score.
Some guests just want to go out and catch a musky and that's fine. that's a simple and straight-forward goal. Most, however, know a guaranteed fish is an unrealistic expectation and really booked a guide for the education. Even when I'm milking a hot and consistent pattern I can't guarantee a musky will be netted. I can, however, guarantee an education and improved familiarity with the lake.
- Paul |
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| I don’t post very often but think I should on the recent comments on this post. I guess I can’t understand why people- (guides) would act this way ' OUT EAST ' . I for one after hearing about this will never hire a guide from this area or want to fish it. Regardless of the chance to hook a fish of a lifetime. I for one hire a guide to learn and understand how to be a better musky fisherman. I don’t pay a guide $ 350 and up to never fish that area again. This to me is ridiculous. If this is true, and it would be understood I don’t fish the area myself later, I would expect then if I don’t catch a fish not only will I not tip you I would request my money back for the trip and not pay you. The expectation then would be I am paying to catch a fish and not learn and apply what I learned on that particular water. It’s just disappointing to me that this is the reality of fishing ' OUT EAST ' . I would love to hear from an 'OUT EAST' guide explain to me your logic. I hire a guide to learn and apply this knowledge to that water on a later date. I all of you who fish muskies just because I learn something from a guide doesn’t mean I can always apply it to other waters. Techniques that work on some waters will not work on others. So then my question is if I dont catch a fish with said guide what did I get for my money?
Just your average muskie fisherman
Trevor |
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| Trevor, $350 is not even close. However you learn from people that put the largest muskies in the world in the boat on a regular basis. They are very nice folks who work super hard to get you fish. They teach techniques that are not known outside of that area. You get to fish pretty incredible structure and learn how to fish it. I really don't understand why people are upset about it. It was not posted to get people upset. I simple added an answer to the question asked. To fish with these guys is a once in a lifetime trip for most people. I was lucky enough to live out there and get to spend numerous days with one of the guides. He has become a great friend. The muskies canada chapter there is great as well....Ben
Edited by BenR 2/24/2008 10:07 PM
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Posts: 12
| I always buy the guide lunch at a local resort or resturant if we stop for lunch and always offer to buy them a beer after the day is done (if its not to late) and if the guide puts me on fish and we had fun then a tip is in order. jason hamernick put me on multiple fish days and my personal best (twice) and I belive I tipped him a $150 each day! these guys are busting there butts to make sure you get your moneys worth and should be compensated for it, thats my opinion. |
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Posts: 376
Location: Lake Vermilion Tower, MN | I have on one occasion even let my client put his map chip in my GPS so he could duplicate our milkrun.
I just like to be ask if it's OK to bring a GPS along. I have never refused a customers request to bring one.
I also mark their map with all the areas we fished and I always give them a few more to check out on their own. I do have the luxury of guiding on a Lake that has more spots than you could fish in a lifetime. Might be different if I was guiding a small body of water with limited productive areas, I don't know.
For the kind of money folks are paying to spend the day with a guide, it should be part of the service to give them a few spots to fish. Most of my customers only come here a trip or 2 a year anyway.
I'd worry more about the locals sitting on all my spots than a tourist.
"Ace"  |
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Posts: 1430
Location: Eastern Ontario | People don't come out here to learn spots, it's that simple. They drive 12-16 hours to come experience their best chance at true trophies. My average trip is 4 days long ( they have an 80%+ chance at a 50 + incher ), it's not a hire a guide one day and fish alone the rest of the week kind of thing.
We have some of the best muskie waters because of the low pressure, if we start getting 20 boats fishing out of every launch the quality of fishing would decline at a fast pace.
As well you can come here for one week or two every single year and still struggle at finding the beasts, it's big dangerous waters and fish can be anywhere from day to day. That's why even the best of anglers need a guide to stay on fish.
I don't want to guide locals because I'm not going to be out there on my A spots or even using my A game. I don't see me charging 1/2 price for 1/2 service that's all. I actually still have a couple of spots to myself and many I don't want anyone to see how I fish them.
It may even be hard to believe but we don't even fish our A spots in front of others, there's actually a guide out here that you will never see fishing. He moves whenever he sees anyone.
I can give you an example how 1 angler has ruined a section of the river all by himself in less then 5 years.
If the clients want to keep coming back to one of the best fisheries they will have to respect the guides wishes.
It's not a common occurrence in my area but I've heard of vehicles getting damaged in the past. |
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Posts: 41
| "Trevor, $350 is not even close. However you learn from people that put the largest muskies in the world in the boat on a regular basis. They are very nice folks who work super hard to get you fish. They teach techniques that are not known outside of that area. You get to fish pretty incredible structure and learn how to fish it. I really don't understand why people are upset about it."
BenR, so if I get what you are saying, I am paying someone well more than $350 to fish one day with a guy to learn techniques that are specific to that area and learn some incredible structure and how to fish it, but if I try to use those techniques and the information of the structure and how to fish it I will get ran off, have my tires flattened and whatever else, and you can't see why this would make people upset.
Nobody should be upset about you posting this information. They should be greatful that you have shared this info and that they know not to hire one of these "guides", unless the stuff you have spoken of is what they want to spend $500 or whatever it is ontop of whatever else they had to spend to get there., for ONE day and HOPEFULLY get a fish of a lifetime.
But, if you are saying you think running people off the water and flattening people's tires is acceptable to do if someone fishes in a spot you told them was good, I would assume you will be getting some well deserved "upset" responses. Your posts come across like you are advocating this "thug" behavior as "normal" or "acceptable" for musky guides and musky fishing. I assume this is why you are getting the negative responses.
So, if you aren't "allowed" to go back to the areas the guides take you and you don't catch a fish of a lifetime, which I can only imagine happens more than not, what did you pay for, to ride in a boat all day and hear stories about big fish. That's why I log onto here
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Location: Illinois | BenR - 2/24/2008 9:59 PM
I really don't understand why people are upset about it. It was not posted to get people upset.
I think a few get upset upon learning how it works out East because it makes the guides appear arrogant. It's difficult to fathom how it works as an outsider. Hearing how it works out there really blows my mind, so much that I'm not going to try to wrap my brain around it. I'm not upset, as it doesn't effect me in the least bit living in the Midwest. I don't need to understand my Eastern brethren's confusing ways. Two different musky worlds, I guess!
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Posts: 1430
Location: Eastern Ontario | Bigfish 44, no one pays $500 for 1 day they pay 2-3K for 4 to 6 days and normally get that beast and many times more then one.
Those techniques actually work everywhere, I had a client go back home and catch a lot of fish using what he learned with me and he actually C&R a possible state record.
Coming out east is just like going up north where no one goes on their own, they need to book flights and lodging/guiding through outfitters. |
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| bigfish44 - 2/25/2008 12:22 PM
"Trevor, $350 is not even close. However you learn from people that put the largest muskies in the world in the boat on a regular basis. They are very nice folks who work super hard to get you fish. They teach techniques that are not known outside of that area. You get to fish pretty incredible structure and learn how to fish it. I really don't understand why people are upset about it."
BenR, so if I get what you are saying, I am paying someone well more than $350 to fish one day with a guy to learn techniques that are specific to that area and learn some incredible structure and how to fish it, but if I try to use those techniques and the information of the structure and how to fish it I will get ran off, have my tires flattened and whatever else, and you can't see why this would make people upset.
Nobody should be upset about you posting this information. They should be greatful that you have shared this info and that they know not to hire one of these "guides", unless the stuff you have spoken of is what they want to spend $500 or whatever it is ontop of whatever else they had to spend to get there., for ONE day and HOPEFULLY get a fish of a lifetime.
But, if you are saying you think running people off the water and flattening people's tires is acceptable to do if someone fishes in a spot you told them was good, I would assume you will be getting some well deserved "upset" responses. Your posts come across like you are advocating this "thug" behavior as "normal" or "acceptable" for musky guides and musky fishing. I assume this is why you are getting the negative responses.
So, if you aren't "allowed" to go back to the areas the guides take you and you don't catch a fish of a lifetime, which I can only imagine happens more than not, what did you pay for, to ride in a boat all day and hear stories about big fish. That's why I log onto here
:-)
I really have no idea what you are talking about. You pretty much missed every point of the post. Not sure I can help you...also the guides do not hurt people or their properties...I explained that you learn a lot, why do you assume it will not work elsewhere? Man you folks are filled with anger, it is almost a bit disturbing to believe you can get this worked up over something that does not effect you all. Relax.... |
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Location: Illinois | BenR - 2/25/2008 1:29 PM
Man you folks are filled with anger, it is almost a bit disturbing to believe you can get this worked up over something that does not effect you all. Relax....
As I posted, earlier, I am not upset and this does not effect me in the least bit living in the midwest. (see above post)
I just don't want to be mischaracterized *if*(you probably did not) by "you folks" you were including me.
I think you probably expected some sort of reaction, and I reacted- but not with anything close to anger.
Edited by muskellunged 2/25/2008 2:12 PM
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| I did not expect any reaction. I simply answered the initial posters question with additional info to those already provided...I guess winter is getting the best of some of you...go snowboarding, ice fishing...a bit of fresh air and exercise does some good... |
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