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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Ok, now that I got your attention, will there be another big money tourney like this again ??
Who would promote it / sponser it ?
Who would fish in it ?
I'm ready to fish in it , is anybody else interested ?
Jerome |
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Posts: 32880
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Eventually, someone will step up and run a high dollar event. I'd cover it. |
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| "SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!" |
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Posts: 32880
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Do the math, it's going to take a $1500 entry fee Pro and $350 Co at LEAST for a field of 150 boats, some serious sponsorship bucks, and a dedicated promoter to make this idea happen.
The business AND the economy is in pretty tough shape right now, so I'm not holding my breath for this to happn this year, but one never says never. |
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Posts: 929
Location: Rhinelander. | I think it will happen in the next few yearsand I'd certainly fish it. I also know that two guys are working on a $100,000 tournament and they have a boat sponsor pretty much onboard. My understanding is they would like to make first place a pair of beautiful boats rigged out. I think some of the other things mentioned to me were great and that they are on the right page but it won't happen this next summer. I wish them luck.
Pfeiff |
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| I call for the Steve Worrall Classic in 2009 on Lake Julia!  |
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Posts: 202
Location: Rhinelander | I'm in, need to catch a 50" on Saturday to qualify for Sunday |
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| ...can I tape two together???? |
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Posts: 697
Location: Minnetonka | Let's do it... RANGER BOATS MUSKIE SHOWDOWN '08... ROCK THE POND! I'll start making flyers 
Edited by Hammskie 1/16/2008 8:47 AM
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Posts: 714
Location: Rhinelander, WI | Steve, we discussed this once and I have been thinking about it ever since.
I don’t know if a Pro/Am musky tourney would work. In my opinion Musky fishing is TOO! much about team work. It’s not like Bass and Walleye were in both anglers need to limit out to make the big bucks. And the amateur takes all of his or her cues from the Pro. Musky fishermen aren’t wired the same way. In a two day event many times 4 or less fish take the event, so team work is much more important. If a musky pro/am is run like bass and walleye the amateur can’t offer any advice on lures and locations, correct? I just don’t see there being a high demand from musky fishermen for that type of event. Especially if the amateur has to shell out $350, the luck component in musky fishing is higher than other species. Just based on numbers of fish needed to win.
I understand to make the jump into the Major bucks an event like this is needed, because it’s much harder to cheat with different boat random partners each day.
Maybe it could be solved with a Pro/Pro event, could even be combined with a Am/Am event. One day an angler is a captain and the next they are a ride along. The captain makes all the final locational decisions, but the rider can offer any advice they deem necessary, then the next day new partners are assigned and riders become captains. It would add a very interesting dynamic, points would be awarded on fish boated, both anglers in the boat would get the same points. So there would have to be some gamesmanship on what the two anglers told each other, but they both would be very interested contacting fish and in insuring any hooked fish made it into the net.
Entry could be $1000 a piece instead of $1500 and $350 for the same 150 field. Or you could do $1500 for 76 pros and $350 for 76 amateurs. From my perspective I would much rather fish an event like this rather than the Pro/Am version, where I didn’t get to make any decisions as the rider.
One major downfall to the format I just laid out. What happens if there are boat/equipment problems during the event? Now the rider is being penalized and there is really no recourse. What happens in a Pro/Am event if this happens? The amateur still has much invested.
Anyway just some thoughts, this seemed like a good place to share them.
Nail A Pig!
Mike
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Posts: 32880
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Mike,
The Pro/Am format is an option, not a necessity. The idea there is to generate more sponsorship by drawing new folks into competitive angling and exposing the Co Angler to the process, and as a result, the Sponsor's products. Team events do work, but growth is 'slower' in that venue.
In the Tournament world using Pro/Am formats, the Co Angler offers ZERO advice of any kind, because they draw a new Pro each day and are prohibited from offering advice from the day before for obvious reasons. The $350 entry is cheap for what basically is a 2 or 3 day guided trip. Of course, the Co Angler acquires points for the zero entry fee championship which needs to be funded at about $250,000, and qualifies to win prizes during each event using the same point schedule as the Pros.
The draw for each Co matching each Pro happens by computer during the event, so a Pro has no idea who his Co is until the night before the event. this model has been in place with circuits like the PWT and FLW for years, and works very well.
If a rig breaks down during the event, that's the way it goes unless the Pro or his Co has a back-up rig. breaks of the game, so to speak. If the event is classy enough and will get necessary media attention, Mercury and Evinrude could be talked in the attending with a service trailer. The other motor brands attend a few events, but I would not hold my breath they would look at this one with a support team until it's proven.
Entry for the event HAS to generate at least $1850 per boat. Here's why:
Each event, one needs a Headquarters, preferably not at a bar. One needs a tournament Trailer with all the trappings, computers, etc, up front if the idea is a circuit. If it's a single event, the event center needs to be media friendly, and able to hold a few hundred folks for the daily 'tally'. And so on...it's expensive to run an event like this.
Expenses are obvious, one needs a crew on hand, has to pay same, etc. this is a TON of work by quite a few folks to do really well, take a look at any FLW or PWT production.
Sure, it's not as hard to do a kitchen chair supported dry erase leaderboard, meet at a bar or cheap wedding rental hall, and use a couple pallets for a stage if one HAS a stage. But a quarter of a million is serious jing, and the event, IMHO, would HAVE to be top shelf to draw in the needed dollars.
If the entry is $1850 per boat on the water, that generates $277,500. If $250,000 goes to first place, you are already broke. Payouts need to go at least 35 places. If the payout is TOTAL $250,000, then you would break down the payout like an FLW or PWT Tour event, with first place in the $60 K range for the Pro, and $10K range for the Co. Sponsorships from endemics and non endemics will pay for the rest at about $350,000, but one needs to have those in place up front, and in this economy, that won't be easy to accomplish.
We would cover an event like this for certain, employing the model we use at WalleyeFIRST covering the Pro Walleye events and FLW League.
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I'm curious what constitutes a Pro vs. an Am.
Does not having participated in tournaments make you an Am?
Or is there some way of ranking based on skill, or number or years fishing?
JS |
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Posts: 32880
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Not really, John, there's not yet any ranking model out there for muskie anglers. A Pro can also be called a Boater, and a Co can also be called a Non Boater. Just sounds bad, and won't do anything for the circuit or event. keep in mind 'Pro' can also mean 'Promotional', as well as 'Professional'.
Here's the WWR ranking for the Walleye Pros. Serious stuff.
http://walleye.outdoorsfirst.com/rankings.asp
Click on any Pro, and look at the overall profile.
Note that the total top 200 Top Ten Most Popular clicks in the last week are nearly 12,000. This is a popular section of our Walleye News and Information coverage. Skarlis leads that cataagory now because he was recently crowned the WalleyeFIRST Ironman Champion. The Ironmen fish all the events from both PWT and FLW, including the championship, to qualify to win. WalleyeFIRST pays an entry fee into an FLW tour or PWT Regional event for the winner.
Established circuits in bass and walleye can have a selection process a Pro has to go through.
Here's what daily coverage of the big fish at a Cass Lake, MN In Fish Professional Walleye trail event look like. Notice the trailer and production by the PWT, this is shot for In Fish TV as well.
http://walleye.outdoorsfirst.com/play_flash.asp?clip=605
While shooting that video, WalleyeFIRST has a live leaderboard underway with live audio and an interactive chat room attached to the leaderboard. Folks from all over the world of walleye join that Live leaderboard and ask questions, listen to the weigh in and get our live color commentary.
Here's what I look like doing that stuff, it's a blast!
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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion |
I don't know if I would like fishing with a different partner every day.
What If he blows a net job, or gets his lures hung up on rocks or wood most of the day. I don't want to waste my time dealing with someone I don't know or can't reley on.
I'm more interested in fishing a couple of big dollar muskie tourneys as a TEAM and not with a different co-angler each day.
I'm thinking 125-150 boats paying down to 15th place with $85,000. as 1rst place
$35,000. 2nd
$25,000. 3rd
$ 20,000. 4th
$ 15,000. 5th on down to 15th place. or something along this line.
$2000. entry fee per team
You wouldn't have to call this a "Pro" muskie tournament, anyone could fish it...
The PMTT has only a handful of full time muskie guys (Pros) that make a living within the sport.... Most of the other 97% that fish the PMTT are just every day normal people with a passion to compete at a higher level.
MR. Worrall, At this point Im not sure if the concept of the FLW and the PWT will work for a muskie tournament trail because Im not quite sold on the co-angler deal.
Example:
Day1, I have a good idea where a couple of hogs are and have had them follow my bait back to the boat with no results.
Day 2, I go back to this spot and my co-angler boats the fish that I have been working, where(as the Pro) does this leave me ?
The team format still makes more sense to me as a competator.
Jerome
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Posts: 714
Location: Rhinelander, WI |
Jerome,
From the conversations I have had, the way I understand it is Musky Tourneys have pretty much topped out as far as pay out. To get the sponsors to shell out the MAJOR buck for individual events like this they need to be assured of the integrity of the competition. When it’s all said and done they don’t want any controversy surrounding their name and hence there products reputation.
I don’t think team musky events give this level of confidence. Big money bass and walleye events evolved the way they did for this very reason. It’s hard to come up with a good plan to cheat if you don’t know who your partner is going to be from event to event and day to day. It only takes 0.001% of a bad apple to screw up the entire process and scare people away. People risk 10 years in jail for a couple hundred bucks out of a convenience store cash register, what are they willing to do for $20,000, $50,000 or even $100,000.
Look at the Simply fishing event, they couldn’t get the big dollar sponsors so the entry fee was set extremely high, and it couldn’t sustain itself to last two years in a row. By the way I loved the format of that event, I think it was the best thing going to remove the element of luck. To win you had to catch fish in three different phases of the event over 5 days. Consistency was KEY! Not getting lucky with a couple fish in only two days of fishing.
As to your last question, I am pretty sure the Pro and co-angler both score the same number of points, it doesn’t matter who catches the fish. But what do you do when the co-anglers line breaks because it’s 5 years old. With so little fish to be caught in musky fishing EVERY fish hooked is just more important. Hence the higher stock placed on team fishing.
Nail A Pig!
Mike
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Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | I enjoyed fishing in the Mike James Mega tournament held by the PMTT a few years back. It was a $100,000.00 top prize tourney(boat and cash package), though it didn't have a full field, so the places didn't pay out the full amount. I think 1st place took about $80k(wish 2nd through 3rd still taking more than a normal events winner) but don't quote me as we only won enough to cover our expenses. I hope Tim and co. resurect this event again at some point, as I'd be all for it. Even better if it could be held somewhere that could benefit from a stocking program influence that the event could back.
Edited by Reef Hawg 1/16/2008 4:52 PM
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Posts: 929
Location: Rhinelander. | Don't know that I'd pay a grand entry to fish with an am. It is teamwork fishing muskies in tournaments. I think the comfort zone with a partner of your choice is critical to success. Again will a big tounament come about I think so and don't think its far of. Maybe Tom McGinnis has some thoughts on this as he has been running successfull tournaments for a few years now.
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Posts: 32880
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Top,
Points in the boat go to both anglers, no matter who catches the fish. It's up to the boat captain to 'educate' his Co Angler on his/her expectations with the net, etc. Gear and lures are controlled and provided by the Pro.
Mike, the Co Angler doesn't bring any equipment. He/she uses the Pro's tackle and throws what the Pro asks without challenge.
The Co angler has to convince the Promoter he/she has a handle on fishing, is well versed as a Muskie angler, and is physically capable of handling what can be a very tough day on the water.
Complete newbies wouldn't be 'encouraged' to enter.
This format works well for many fresh and saltwater events. Team events also work, but Mike hit on part of the team concept problems.
Another working concept is the Pro/Observer format, but that takes WAY more media coverage/sponsor money and entry dollars than Muskie is ready to support.
SO far the Team concept in hasn't taken Muskie Circuits to the level of an FLW League event.
No format has. 'Successful' Muskie circuits to date don't compare even to a Masters Walleye Circuit event. That's not the fault of the anglers, it's the size of the business and limited sponsor and entry dollars at work.
I heard the same objection from MWC Walleye Pro Teams when the In Fish Professional Walleye Trail started the Pro/Co format, Don. Proved to be not at all an issue.
'Watch this space', however, much will change before too awful long.
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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion |
Steve,
Thanks for clearing up some questions about the Co and there responsabilites.
I'm starting to like this concept more and more, but I still lean more toward the team format.
Hopfuly someone will help make something like this happen in the near future.... Jerome |
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| define a muskie "pro", the only ones i can think of are the guides out there. muskie fishing isnt like the big bass or salt tourney's where a person can make a living at it as far as tourney's go, the only real living being made from it are the guides......and i dont think you could get 150+ guides to fish this thing. In the grand scheme of it....it isnt that popular either (muskie fishing)...unless you live in MN or Wi. I also think that muskie fishing is by far more of a team effort than any other kind of fishing.....both anglers play a huge role in cathing the fish. I also feel keeping the big money/corporate side away is better for the fish, things tend to become less important when there is a lot of money at stake (fish handling) plus i just dont think the "past-time" is that popular outside our circles. |
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Posts: 33
| One other thing to keep in mind.In the FLW/PWT walleye Pro/Am the "Pro/Boater" is responsible to provide ALL tackle during the event............ |
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Location: Rhinelander, WI | Steve, thanks for clearing more things up.
Guest defining a Pro is simple in an event like this, especially as it gets started. A Pro is someone who can come up the equipment and dollars and guts to enter an event like this. Nothing more to it. Even Pro bass and walleye guys start some place, probably in similar events to the big ones. They start out spending their own money and as they make a name for themselves sponsors start paying more of the bills. Many professional sports are like this, especially car and bike racing. I know a kid that is an Arena Cross racer, when he started out it was all his and his parents’ money. Now he is fully sponsored and actually gets paid to race win or loose, plus he keeps all the prize money.
As to the end of your paragraph some great points.
Nail A Pig!
Mike
Edited by MRoberts 1/17/2008 8:37 AM
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Posts: 32880
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Guest,
Not too many are 'making a living' in the Walleye world JUST fishing tournaments, either. That doesn't stop the FLW and PWT from paying out up to $60K and more top prize to the Pro in each event. Muskie fishing is one of the few and is the largest growing segment in fresh water fishing, so eventually, this will happen. it's not an 'if', it's a 'when'.
There are certainly enough muskie anglers out there who would enjoy a shot at this to fill a 150 boat field if the money is right. Whether the angler is fishing for fun or $60K has absolutely nothing to do with fish handling, except if the fish doesn't release at boatside in competition, it doesn't count. Tournament anglers are usually very well versed in fish handling and wouldn't abuse the fish any more or less than say...you or me.
Wallytap, you are right, and that was already pointed out. |
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Posts: 5874
| As a "seasoned' Co-angler in the FLW Walleye Tour and Leagues, and a Boater last year in the FLW League, I think I can offer some insight in this discussion, and answer questions and concerns about a Pro(Boater)/Co-angler tournament Series. I will refer to the Pro(Boater) as a Pro in the rest of this.
First of, let me state that, IMO, the only way there will be a cintinuing big money, big time Muskie Tourney Series, is to go to a Pro/Co-angler format. There is just too much risk of outright cheating in the team format for a Big dollar tourney series to attract major sponsorship money. If you want to argue that, look at what happens when there is $10 or $20K tourneys. Not saying every one was won by cheaters, but cheaters were competing in them. Biggest way to scare off sponsors is have an incident such as last year. You think it was limited to that team, and just last year?
To answer the Pro question? As stated, if you have the money, the boat, and the nads to enter as a Pro/Boater, then by gosh, you are a Pro. You don't HAVE to have the experience, knowledge, best equipment, be a guide, a full time tourney angler, or anything that normally is associated with the term Pro. That's why Boater/Co-angler is used in the FLW League events.
The way the Pro's and Co's are paired is by draw. If it is a one day event, like the Leagues, then you find out your partner the night before at the rules meeting. If it's a two, or more day event, you find out the next day's partner at the weigh in/leaderboard. A Co-Angler may not share any informationfrom the previous day, with the current day partner. The Pro is responsible for all equipment and bait/lures. The Co will only bring clothing, food and drink, sunscreen, etc, into the boat.
Now, to address the concerns about teamwork being essential in Muskie fishing, or at least Muskie Tourneys. I agree, teamwork is essential. But not just for muskie fishing. Most often, in the Pro/Co Walleye tourneys, the winners ususally have great partners each day, and work very well together. The Pro determines where, how, and with what, they will fish, and will control the boat above idle speed.
Trust me when I say this. The Pro's are not the only entrants concerned about getting a bad draw! Good Pro's can overcome the limitations of their Co-Anglers. It's ALOT more difficult for a Co-angler to overcome the limitations of their Pro!
I think a Pro/Co Muskie Circuit could work. The big thing is getting the major sponsor. I can almost garrantee that this sponsor will not be a msukie fishing related sponsor. Something along the lines of the WalMart FLW, for this series to be successful, I think a major sponsor from outside the industry will be required. It will be something like a Home Depot, WalGreens, Festival Foods, Lowes, etc. to be sold on the advantage and exposure this tourney will bring to them.
With the right format, marketing, logistics, personalities, and many other things, this could work. It'll be interesting to see if something could spin out of the current FLW program. Afterall, it used to be one Bass series that has grown to 8 Bass series, then they added two Walleye series. Now they have RedFish, Kingfish, and Striper series. Can you see the FLW Home Depot Muskie League?
Perhaps start with State Leagues, and then add a Big Money Tour? If they'd follow the same format, you could have payouts of $60K to the winner, with Boat and Motor contingency's adding an additional $30K. Entry of $1,500 for the Pro, and $400 for the co-angler for a 3 or 4 day event, with cuts on the last day to the top ten. |
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Posts: 1937
Location: Black Creek, WI | Wow.... lots of opinions and ideas being shared.
I'm a little confused on the PRO and CO concept for a musky tourney. What incentive would there be for either contestant?
Why would anyone want to enter as a PRO?
Why would anyone want to enter as a CO?
With these types of events.... are there two types of sponsorship? An event sponsor to inflate the Prize Purse and then PRO sponsors to offset the Pro's higher entry fee??? Looks like I need to learn a lot more about this format before I can offer an opinion. Otherwise, I'm in the "TEAM" camp and not open to the Pro/Co concept.
I'd rather fish one 5-day elimination event for $100,000 1st Place Cash than three 2-day events with a $30,000 1st Place Cash payout. The 5-day event actually ends up being less of a time commitment.... and it reduces the "luck factor" enough that the investment for entering is less risky. |
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Posts: 5874
| jlong - 1/17/2008 12:26 PM
Wow.... lots of opinions and ideas being shared.
I'm a little confused on the PRO and CO concept for a musky tourney. What incentive would there be for either contestant?
Why would anyone want to enter as a PRO?
Why would anyone want to enter as a CO?
With these types of events.... are there two types of sponsorship? An event sponsor to inflate the Prize Purse and then PRO sponsors to offset the Pro's higher entry fee??? Looks like I need to learn a lot more about this format before I can offer an opinion. Otherwise, I'm in the "TEAM" camp and not open to the Pro/Co concept.
I'd rather fish one 5-day elimination event for $100,000 1st Place Cash than three 2-day events with a $30,000 1st Place Cash payout. The 5-day event actually ends up being less of a time commitment.... and it reduces the "luck factor" enough that the investment for entering is less risky.
Incentives are the normal. Competition for one.
On the pro side, potential for a big payday. Say $60K to win, with additional contingencys.
On the co side, Maybe $10K to win, win additional contingencys. Plus, if it is a multiple day event, you get 2, 3, or even 4 days to fish with the pros. Learn new water, techniques, how to work new, or old, baits, trolling, jigging, casting, etc. Hopefully you get great Pro's and essentially get several days for the price of a one day guide trip.
As with any tourney that has a decent payout, the tournament directors will have sponsorship, to add to the purse and pay the expenses. And the entrants will also have varying degrees of sponsorship to help with the expenses of fishing the tournaments. |
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Posts: 714
Location: Rhinelander, WI | Co-anglers are fishing against other Co-anglers and Pros are fishing against Pros for each respective prize pool.
Hope that makes sense check out this web page it gives a breakdown of the final results of a FLW event.
http://walleyeleague.flwoutdoors.com/tournament.cfm?cid=7&did=0&t=d...
Nail A Pig!
Mike
P.S. J, I would LOVE to see you as a Co-Angler in an event like this, especially if you were paired with a not so hot Pro. That would be great entertainment watching your tongue bleed from biting it so often. Think Pro my friend.
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| He better pair up with Dan W if he expects a shot at winning! |
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Posts: 4080
Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | Shep,
Thanks for all of the great info...But....is there any way (in a team format) to reduce cheating 100% ?
Any ideas
If a pro/co-angler muskie event ever did happen I would enter as the pro/boater just to see how it works.
Thanks guys, Jerome |
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Posts: 32880
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I might also point out the concept and support for same of an annual single event with an elimination concept didn't work out too well. Why?
Lots of reasons, including continuity and carry through, effectiveness ( or for that matter, lack of) of media coverage available for the short duration of the event, etc.
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