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ChunkN-Wind |
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Posts: 7 | When is enough is enough. I was looking at getting a guide for northern MN and even the guides that dont fish day in and day out, get $400. Do the math, why are fishing guides making more money then some privite practice doctors. I would love to make $400 a day or more as I saw on some websites. The last guide I hired was Dave Doriazo and he was under $200 and that was 10 years ago. I had a great time, we caught fish and it was worth every penny. But for $400, it would have to be the trip of lifetime. I do the math and I can fish a week on LOTW or hire a guide for two days. When did these rates go through the roof? Did the rates go up when Ranger boats started selling boats for $40-50k? Some of these guides even fish in the front of the boat and get first water and still charge that amount of money. I cant believe it. Maybe I am still in the stone age, but the rates seem high and the good old fashined guiding values dont seem to be around anymore. Ok, I am off my soapbox | ||
| lambeau |
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| guides are business-people operating in a free market. they set their rates based on the laws of supply and demand, and a day with a guide is definitely NOT a "necessity". heck, there was a time when traveling north and staying at a resort to fish muskies (almost always with a guide) was something that only the rich could do. the sport as a whole is much more accessible. if demand is high, prices increase - maybe even enough to allow some of the hardest working self-employed people in the industry to make a living wage and afford health care. but probably not. a quick google search will list guides that represent a wide range of prices. | |||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32959 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | This has been covered here quite a bit. What does Ranger pricing have to do with Guide fees? I don't own a Ranger, and I get $350.00. I don't know any private practice doctors that charge less than $50 an hour. I know a ton of other professionals who charge a whole lot more. Insurance, Fuel costs, etc for the rig Tow rig, insurance, fuel Gear, lures, stuff that lasts a 'season' line, leaders, stuff that lasts a week of guiding work in the best, worst, and all sorts of weather short season have to spend the day with some clients. Guide call clients like this 'sports' Other guides know exactly why. Lots more, but most importantly.. It's what the market will bear. | ||
| ChunkN-Wind |
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Posts: 7 | Not ment to be a tirade. More of a question of when did rates start going though up and why. I had not looked at rates a few years. You both make a good point on health care and such and I guess I dont have a problem with those guides that do that for there only living. But how can the part-time weekend guides get the same rates then? Most guides I saw only fish a few days here and a few days there, yet maintain a day job to earn a living, health care and such. I would think those guides would be a lot less, since they are not as "dialed in" as the full time guides. I am sure they "know" the water and should be paid for there knowledge, but they might not know where all the big fish are on a day to day basis. My comment on the Ranger is, maybe that was a factor in the costs. Before those expensive boats became part of the guide equiptment, low cost smaller Lund and Tuffy boats were used. Those rigs were less expensive to the guide and I am sure they were able to keep more money in there pockets. Gas we all know about that, that I understand way too much. Steve, I am glad you are under $400. You would be a good bang for a buck for a guide since you fish at least 5-6 days a week. Your a quality guide from what I have read and I am sure that is why you are so busy, putting smiles on your customers faces. | ||
| Shane Mason |
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| I agree with much of what lambeau and Steve wrote. I am not sure hom much Mr. Doriazo charges now, but I bet its not under $200 anymore like it was 10 years ago. Just as gas prices werent what the were 10 years ago, or anything else I was buying 10 years ago. And there are a heck of alot more musky anglers than there were 10 years ago. Purely market driven my friend, and you will find many quality guides in Wisconsin that are under $400. In fact I cant think of any myself that are over $400. But thats Wisconsin. MN is a different ball game, thats the place to be right now, and they are popping quality fish at an unprecedented rate. Simple supply and demand. If they werent getting the money, they wouldnt be charging it. And in general the water is much bigger than what we have here. I know if I am out on what we consider big water here (Twins, LVD) its pretty easy to burn through a tank of gas in a long day in my boat (27gal) then you add gas for the rig on top of that. I cant imagine what they are going through out on Mille Lacs and Vermillion. And I think very little of it has to do with the boat itself, personally I dont know how those guys do guide out of Rangers, nice boats but are really bad for storage, and being a guide I usually have at least 3 of everything in the boat. Not the ideal guide boat IMO. If you are booking/not booking a certain guide because of the boat they have, your not going to get your moneys worth out of a guided tripo no matter who you go with. One of the best multispecies guides in the midwest IMO Eric Hattaja guides out of a tin can yet. Yet the only thing his customers usually complain about is sore arms from reeling in fish all day. Another thing you have to look at is what are you paying for? Are you paying to go out and catch fish that day, or is this something you want to do and take the knowledge from that day and apply it to the rest of your fishing days. I dont know about anyone else, but to me the knowledge is what you pay for, what price do you put on shaving YEARS off the learning curve? I am on the water 7 days a week with clients or not, and I think the motto I came up with says it best "putting a lifetime of experience into your experience of a lifetime." I think if you put things into perspective you will find that $400 is a bargain. And I hope you dont hold this against some of the guides you were looking at in northern MN. There are some top notch guides over there. A few I will have no problem handing over MY $400+ to. | |||
| Don Pfeiffer |
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Posts: 929 Location: Rhinelander. | Then doctors, give me a break. Have you seen the price of gas? Do you know what insurance cost? and then there is always snacks and soda in the boat. Suckers in the fall. and many guides are self employed and have to pay there own insurance, the full amout of s.s. not half, and have to provide own retirement account. no paid vocation or sick days. My dentist just got 1400 from me in an hour and half!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pfeiff | ||
| muskellunged |
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 Location: Illinois | While I admit I think guides are costly, it is no different than how I feel about much of everything else, really. If you are looking for an answer to when, I'd say in the last 10+ years the sport has grown dramatically, in both numbers of musky fisherman and musky guides. Now, do not forget about inflation and rising insurance costs either! Most guides (in my experience) will be on the water for nine hours or more, and once you subtract all of their overhead like gas and supplies, they probably are lucky to make around thirty an hour per trip. Sounds okay, but just think how many days per week/per month/per year works. As previously mentioned, with some work one can find "cheaper" guides. Realize you *might* 'get what you pay for'. And most guides offer 1/2 day packages which are basically 1/2 cost. I empathize with your sentiment but also with the guides because all of us are getting screwed. A dollar doesn't go as far as it used to and it seems to be getting worse every day. God bless the guides, they are doing their best to ensure we go home happy. They are business men(& women) with families to feed. It's a good question, and the answer is lures, rods, boats, nets, gas, milk, eggs, diapers and guides rates have all been INFLATED over time and will seemingly continue for some good time. Mike Witowski | ||
| kap n jim |
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Posts: 5 | Back in the marina business years ago, some people would complain about the mechanics hourly labor rate for fixing their outboard. Let's say the service bill back then was $40.00 bucks, a disgruntled customer would say: "Forty bucks, all you did was turn a couple screws." I told the mechanic to tell them that five bucks was charged for turning the screws, and $35 was for knowing which screws to turn......... Yep, economics 101. Supply and Demand dictates pricing. Edited by campfire 1/6/2008 9:23 AM | ||
| Trophymuskie |
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Posts: 1430 Location: Eastern Ontario | I started to guide in 2000 and my rates were 350USD but then it was worth 525CAD. Now with the fluctuation in the dollar I took a loss for many years and I now charge 525CAD. This means my rates have not changed in 8 years and lord knows the cost of everything has gone up. I may be on the expensive side of the scale but like everything there are different level of service. Clients come here from far away and for multiple day trips to catch trophy muskies. All this is done in the best of comforts. Also there are but a couple of full time guides within 100 miles of here. Then you take a place like WI where you will find hundreds of guides of all levels as well as tonnes of resorts where guides are cheap. This brings the prices down for everyone but you will still find the better guides charging more. Like any business the ones that need work lower their rates and those that don't raise theirs. And $50 an hour is not take home pay, after expenses it's a lot less. And this is a seasonal job. Basically guides are poor but get to do what they love for a living. P.S. I'm sure if you look hard enough you will find a cheep guide but he may not be the best. | ||
| AWH |
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Posts: 1243 Location: Musky Tackle Online, MN | The way I look at it, if their prices were so outrageous, they sure wouldn't have a need for another income stream in addition to their guide business. Only the select few that are the most successful can rely on their guiding as their only source of income. It would be interesting to know what percentage of guides also have other jobs. I'm guessing it's much higher than most would think. Aaron Edited by AWH 1/6/2008 11:21 AM | ||
| pgaschulz |
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Posts: 561 Location: Monee, Illinois | If they where too high they would not get anyone, there are some guides that need to charge less than others on the same water to get buisness or to ensure they are full to make there money back they have invested. Think about this, one day guide trip, client busts a reel and rod or drops one in the water or whatever, now where do you stand. Rememer a lot of people taking these guides might have never casted a bait caster or might not have even casted. They are also out there to make some money. I give lessons because I enjoy it but I also try to make a buck at it. | ||
| FishingFool |
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Location: Eau Claire,WI | If the prices are too high then DON'T hire a guide!!! I will leave it at that.Let me ask you this,have you ever had a true 50 pound fish come to the sufrace and look at your bait? I did!!! last year...Was the price of the guide worth it,#*^@ right!!! Even she didn't eat the lure it was still a thrill of my lifetime! Oh,thanks Lee T!!! | ||
| Tackle Industries |
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Posts: 4053 Location: Land of the Musky | My suggestion is don't hire a guide then. As for prices I know a lot of guides that are booked almost everyday at current prices. Prices must be in line IMO. One even costs $450 and you will have a hard time getting him! If prices were too high then it would take care of itself..... JMO | ||
| Pedro |
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Posts: 670 Location: Otsego, MN | I look at it this way...I hired a gudie last year on Lake Vermillion and ended up paying probably $400 for a entire day of fishing. We didn't catch a single fish(tough conditions) but it was one of the most enjoyable days I have ever had on the water. I learned more about Lake Vermillion in one day than I could of in a dozen trips to the lake by myself. Driving from the twin cities to fish Vermillion is pretty expensive to do a lot of scouting around and time fishing wasted water. I look at guides as a great INVESTMENT and they are worth every penny. In my opinion guides are well worth there cost. | ||
| greybeard |
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Posts: 82 Location: Cottage Grove, Mn | Chunk n wind; To get a proper prespective, what do you make per year, weeks vacation and do you have health, dental, life and stock options? What do you have invested in tools, training , special clothes.....If you're going to complain about people's wages, lets be able to ascertain value...........What do you make per day? What bonuses do you make? good health, greybeard ;) | ||
| Just Curious |
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| I don't think the issue should be how much but rather why should I pay a guide $400.00 a day and then watch him fish .I'll never understand why the guide needs to cast when the client is paying to be put on the fish. I've had friends cough up $350.00 a day + tip (ethical anglers) to watch the guide catch the big fish of the day! Can someone explain why this is, isn't the bottom line to make the client a happy camper !! | |||
| Pedro |
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Posts: 670 Location: Otsego, MN | I think having the guide fish is a bonus. Say most trips are you and a buddy and a gudie. Would you rather have 3 baits working to come on a pattern or just two. I say three. By having a gudie casting out the back of the boat your covering more water and presentations. So the guide bags a pig that day so what, maybe he just put you and your buddy on a pattern and you go on to catch your pig later in the trip. | ||
| "Guest" |
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| "Just Curious," Good point. I have hired guides several times in the past. Once for pre-fishing a tournament (which I informed the guide of). The other time was several years ago which was my first experience on Mille Lacs and I was yet to catch a 50" at the time. I think whether the guide fishes or not should be discussed and is up to the client(s) paying $300-$500. My friend and I had to beg the particular guide on Mille Lacs to fish. Yes, my friend and I wanted to catch our first 50" but even more than that, we just wanted to see a huge muskie in the net that day. It all depends what you are looking for as a client. If your only goal is for you to catch fish (which is perfectly acceptable), then the guide should not fish. If your goal is to witness as much muskie fishing action as possible then the guide should fish. | |||
| Derrys |
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| My brother used to guide for around $200.00 per day. I know he never fished when he guided, and he put people on multiple fish quite a few times. He decided he wasn't going to do it anymore, although I can't remember why. I've never hired a guide myself, and I agree that the prices seem a bit high. As stated previously though, they have every right to charge whatever they can get people to pay. I would expect that many of them work all summer in states like MN., and then for the winter rely on making a few hundred dollars here and there at speaking engagements. The Muskie guiding season in MN. is rather short when you put it in that perspective. | |||
| Hulbert |
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| If a guide does fish, it should always be out of the back of the boat and never out of the front. Also, by having the guide fish you can learn how to work baits properly, how to figure 8 properly, how to fight a fish properly, etc.... that is if the guide knows himself!! LOL I get asked a few times a year not to fish, but not many. And I normally ask before I pick up rod and start casting. Most people say, "Are you serious??? HELL YES you can fish!!!" No on really windy conditions when I need to keep the boat in a certain position, then I will not fish and simply control the boat properly. But on a normal day, you bet, I am casting away out of the back. As far as guide prices go...well....some deserve to get paid more than others that might only fish 2 times a week or only guide several times a month, but those guides are typically going to charge pretty close to just as much as the guys that do it 7 days a week. If "John" chages $400 a day and he is booked solid, "Jimmy" who might only guide 3 days month on the same body of water isn't going to charge $200....then people won't hire him because they know by the price something just isn't right.... And also cost is a huge factor. I am fishing out of a 2008 boat, with top of the line quality equipment. If you hire a limo for a night, do you want to ride around in a 1989 limo with 250,000 miles on it, or do you want to ride around in complete style and comfort? Insurance, gas, driving time, live bait, rods, lures, elecronics, etc.... I have alot of guys that hire me 6+ times a year...I have told all of these guys that what they spend on me, they could afford a boat, blah blah, blah...they all tell me the same thing...Yes, I know I could afford a boat with the money I spend by fishing you but, but at the end of the day, I get in my car and drive home....no worries about boat, keeping it clean, getting it fixed if something breaks, I don't have to buy a bunch of rods and thousands of dollars with of lures....I can fish with you, and drive home with no worries..... HULBERT | |||
| Mr Musky |
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Posts: 999 | I can see paying $350 to $400 if the guide is going to give you your monies worth by that I mean you start early and fish your tails off all day and by the end of the day your tail is dragging and you both had enough. Or vice versa you start late afternoon and fish through the nite. And I think most of your well known guides are like that. The guides I have a problem with are the 8am to 4 pm guides. I personally wouldn't consider booking a guide if he is set in stone on those hours like so many northern WI guides still are. I was looking at this guides website for grins the other day and I see he charges $50 dollars for each additional hour over 8 hrs. That right there would turn me off. But their charging top dollar!! My 2 cents. Mr Musky | ||
| Smokin Joe |
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Posts: 311 | Hiring a guide is not about catching fish.........It is about "LEARNING"....I fished with 3 top notch MN. guides last year and learned more from those 3 trips than I ever would in a year on my own. When you hire a guide, you are getting an education, you are the student and they are the teacher, and you can't put a price on a good education. Catching fish is just a bonus.................... | ||
| Mr Musky |
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Posts: 999 | Hulbert, I went to your site (very nicely constructed) and seen that your hours are 8 hours MINIMUM and 10-12 hours are the NORM, that's the kind of guide i'd be looking for and is worth the money. Mr Musky | ||
| AWH |
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Posts: 1243 Location: Musky Tackle Online, MN | If I hire a guide, he better be fishing as well. Like has been said already, you're paying good money to a guide for an education. Whether it be an education on the lake itself, techniques, etc. What better way to learn than to be able to watch a guide and how he fishes, how he presents the bait, what little things he might do to help trigger a strike? A guide can explain the hows and whys until he's blue in the face. But sometimes it takes SEEING how he does it to completely put the pieces together. If you're going to hire a guide and not watch how he fishes and not ask questions as to why he might be doing something a certain way, then maybe you do want him to just worry about boat control and not wet a line. In the end, whether the guide fishes or not is up to the client. I doubt you'll find a guide that says, "I'm going to fish whether you want me to or not." Aaron | ||
| AWH |
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Posts: 1243 Location: Musky Tackle Online, MN | Another thing to consider with a guide that fishes. By having another bait in the water (and likely a different bait, not just an additional one), the guide could very likely put together a pattern much quicker that will result in the client putting a fish in the boat (one of the goals!). Say there's two clients in the boat, the guide has one throwing a bulldawg and one a bucktail because it was a bucktail and bulldawg bite as of late. One is casting up in the weeds, the other right along the break. Maybe the guide chooses to throw a crank bait off the deep side, even though all the fish the past few days have been up shallow. After an hour, the guide has moved 4 fish while the clients have done nothing. The pieces are coming together. It's looking like the fish have slid deep. Maybe it's time to move the clients to this pattern, something that wouldn't have been discovered so soon if the guide wouldn't have been casting. Lots of advantages, as I see it. Aaron | ||
| Guest |
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| Mr. Musky, Thanks, I don't have a set number of hours as a "FULL DAY"...my full days are as long as you want to fish, we'll keep fishing. Hell I had one guy keep me on the water over 17+ hours one day!!! LOL I'm going to be out there anyway, so I don't care if you want to fish 8 hours, 10, 12, 14.... Fishing "Banker Hours" doesn't cut it in this business. Hulbert | |||
| Troyz. |
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Posts: 734 Location: Watertown, MN | Chuck I think guides that were charging $300 this year were cheap and $400 in no suprise with gas prices. Fulltime or parttime does not matter, it is what you charge to cover they expences and make some $$$. Last time I check most guides were not living the high life of what they charge. How much would you pay a consultant to come in to you company for a 1 day of training, I would classify a guide as 1 day consultant a so they still are a bargain. Like steve stated look at all the hidden expences of a guide full or part time. I would bet al said and done they make $20 a hour after expenses Troyz | ||
| john skarie |
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| I don't think most guides are charging to much in light of what the expenses are. But $400 a day is out of reach of most anglers. The unfortunate side of this situation is eventually guides will only be affordable to the "upper" class of anglers. I think the day will come soon when you'll see more guides in less expensive boats, catering to people who may have their own rods/lures etc. at a cheaper rate than the guide that provides everything. If not, than I think in the future there will be a lot less guides out there. JS | |||
| jonnysled |
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Posts: 13688 Location: minocqua, wi. | you know there are so many "customer definitions" too. some people just want to get out for one day of a vacation and "fish" like they would choose to go golfing or horseback-riding on vacation. then there are the hard-core's who want to learn more details and better there own already good game ... and of-course everything in-between. your job as a client is to find the best guide for you based on what you are trying to accomplish. hulbert ... nelson doesn't count! | ||
| reelman |
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Posts: 1270 | I would sooner that they charge $400 and that is all that they accept than them charging $300 and expecting a $100 tip at the end of the day. | ||
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