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| Fishing hurts fish.
Scuba diving is really what a lot of muskie fisherman should take up. That way you can appreciate these god-like creatures that need protection. Just swim up to them, and look at them. No need to slam steel hooks into their faces. No need to fight them to the boat, sometimes exhausting them. No need to create scars on their heads and faces when you pull those hooks from their faces. No need to take a picture of them while they are out of the water and therefore starving for oxygen. Buy an underwater camera with the money you accumulate after selling your rods, reels, and lures, and just take pictures.
Really does it matter if you target a fish in September or October or before they spawn? If you hurt that fish, or even kill that fish (through harvest or delayed mortality) in September it will be just as dead as it will be in May, just prior to the spawn. A dead fish is a dead fish be it in September or May. Either way you are hurting god's creatures for fun, and to satisfy some part of your ego that tells you that it is ok to hurt a creature just to say you out-smarted an animal with a brain the size of a pea.
It seems as though more and more muskie fisherman are advocating more and more limiting regulations. Upping size limits, fighting against trolling, wanting to out law single hook sucker rigs, trying to fight against an expanded open season. All of these are efforts to limit the usage of the resource. Why not take it to the next step? You're moving in that direction already: protection of the species.
C&R them, use single barbless hooks, use quicksets versus swallow rigs, do or dont take them out of the water. Does it really matter? By all accounts on this site, other sites and within the muskie community and throughout the muskie's range there is one common thread: hurting muskies is bad. So I ask you, why fish for them when you can appreciate them in their natural setting by snorkeling or scuba diving? No fish get hurt, and you can still appreciate them.
Take that next step and just stop hurting these creatures for your own pleasure and ego satisfaction. Surely you can appreciate them without injurning them, can't you?
John
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Posts: 550
Location: So. Illinois | ROFLMAO,
I am laughing so hard I think I am going to hurt myself!!!
BAWHAAAAAAHAAAAAAAHAAAAAAHAAAAA
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Posts: 32951
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I'd start beating the crap out of and eating Muskie again before I took it to this level. If I can't abuse a fish with a brain the size of a pea, I guess I'll have to abuse deer. They are bigger and taste better.
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Location: St. Germain, Wi | PETA must be sending out subliminal messages over the airwaves...Jim |
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| Why is this so hard for you to consider? Already within your ranks there are very strong efforts to limit the ability to catch, exploit and "enjoy" these fish! You should not troll, you should not pick fish up from the water for pictures, you should not fight the fish to exhaustion, not fish in the summer when temperatures are high, should not fish for them during the spawn, etc. etc. These efforts are moving muskie fishing into more and more of a protectionist stance already. Why not take that next step. If you truly want to preserve the muskie for future generations why NOT stop fishing and find less pain causing methods. If catching muskies causes them to expire at a rate of 10% mortality by even the most ardent catch and release advocates aren't you running the risk of killing them simply by throwing a lure into the water?
Think about it, even throwing a barbless single hook lure you still run the risk of traumatic brain injury, or that the fish will take the hook all the way into the gills and damage their breathing apparatus. Bringing that fish to the boat even by the quickest possible means can exhaust that fish to the point of death.
Is just appreciating them in their natural environment truly that far a stretch for you who say that you are truly concerned about their well-being? |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | john must have read a lot of posts on the boards ... he's well-informed and states the very things supported and argued to the point of hatred.
he is the mirror to much of what musky fishermen are reflecting ...
thanks John for showing it for what it is ....
i'm gonna bake a 34" next year |
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Posts: 1769
Location: Algonquin, ILL | Interesting BUT!!!!! I do not think that Scuba Diving or Snorkeling in late October would be a very good idea, I'll stick with Rod & Reel thank you
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| Heck...I'd take up scuba diving to appreciate them...and also learn more about their habits to make it easier to catch them!!
Interesting points brought up, though Mr. Thomas...it does bring to light how our passion sometimes overexceeds the actual thing we do.
I think the handling and care of the fish is so strong becasue we enjoy the thrill of the hunt, the challenge to catch one, and the ability to release the fish in the best way possible to do it again. That does not go without risk and I think we all understand that well.
Steve |
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Location: The desert | Actually I think John is onto something here.....here's how it works:
We all go out and get our PADI certification to dive, if you dont already have the certification. Next we all purchase the underwater propulsion units to pull us along, as we all know not all of us are in great shape to swim around for an extended period of time. We all bring our rods under with us and start the first ever underwater musky trolling tactics. Think about it, we all see these cool videos of fish hitting a bait that is being trolled...why not just go down there and see it with our own eyes?
Thanks John for opening our eyes....but until this new 'tactic' takes off I'm going to keep sharpening my hooks and inflicting traumatic brain injuries.....Call me Jeffery Dahmer, but I get a sick and twisted enjoyment out of hooking fish with sharp objects.... |
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| Sled, you need to grill it! My buddies dad keeps a 34-37" each year from their lake and grills it...He says it tastes good...
Scuba diving is something I want to take up and it would be great to dive in their element but JT who are you trying to kid...we are all musky nuts who are never going to give up casting for them...regardless if a few die or get hurt in the process..funny stuff. |
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Location: Racine, Wi | John Thomas - 1/3/2008 10:40 AM
Think about it, even throwing a barbless single hook lure you still run the risk of traumatic brain injury,
As long as I duck fast enough or wear some head gear, I shouldn't have to worry about brain injuries.  |
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Location: Athens, Ohio | I like C&R fishing because it does not kill the target, quite unlike hunting. I never thought 'muskie hunter' described the sport - as I practice it - very well. I don't like the idea of 'hurting' fish, however, I've yet to read or see any evidence that fish percieve pain the way humans or other mammals do.
I think the author has an agenda, but it seems to be based upon an assumption that fish can be 'hurt', in the same way warm blooded mammals can. I would like to see his evidence on fish feeling pain posted. m |
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| Hey John
I know you're just trying to make a point about the "elitist" mentality, because you can't be for real. But just in case, let me make something clear to you that I think sums up the answers you will get from other people:
This is a fishing website. We enjoy fishing, which involves putting sharp hooks into fishes faces. It's an unaviodable consequence of catching them with a fishing rod and lure(s). C&R ethic , no matter how overstated it may be around here, is first and foremost about doing everything we can to ensure that we don't kill muskies unnecessarily in our act of catching them. But we apparently lose you at why that's important. It's important to us because we LIKE catching those fish. We want to be able to catch them again, or have someone ELSE catch them. Yes, it's for the fishes sake, because we do care about them. But I ain't out there to appreciate muskies, I wanna catch the friggin things!
Now as for walleyes, panfish, etc.? It's a little different, because we eat those. And though I don't enjoy killing them, it is a means to an end, and a necessary path to being able to cook and eat them, just like everything else you have ever eaten in your life, 'ya gotta kill it first.
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Posts: 170
| Would this be a "Doubting Thomas"????
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Interesting line of thinking, but it's not accurately potraying why some anglers are becoming "protectionists".
Anglers don't protect fish to save them from being caught, they protect them so thay have fish to catch.
Much like Ducks Unlimited buying up land to ensure there is proper habitat to have good duck numbers.
That is done so they have ducks to hunt, not to look at.
Although every true sportsmen does enjoy and appreciate wildlife for what it is, it's the interaction with them on a "predator" level that motivates conservation among most sportsmen.
JS |
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Posts: 355
Location: Wausau, Wisconsin | John Thomas brings a view to the table that you have to take for what it is worth. We have to be careful of how we interact with each other over regulations and catch and release. We as sportsmen can not publicize this idea that everything we do is harmful. It is counterproductive to the idea of improving resources, recruiting youth and keeping our rights as anglers. John Thomas' view reflects that of PETA and their "fishing hurts" campaign. This threat is very real and it is certainly the responsibility of us and time to promote the good that we do. Some in this industry have a habit of bringing "crisis" to everything because they care but at the same time create this negative overview of our sport.
What is truely important is that each lake has a proper balance of all species, prey and predator, that populations are in check and the year classes are distributed properly. Not every lake can support a bunch of 30 pound plus muskies. Some lakes could use responsible management harvest and some lakes offer the opportunity to increase the upper tier of their muskies to both create balance and offer a sport fishing opportunity that bring tourism dollars that ultimately turn into conservation dollars.
It is why I so commonly get discouraged by the anti-DNR vibes. So often the problem is the money is not there to do the research and so often the money is not there to employ those who will make the right descisions. What we are left with are the politicians that can financially support themselves who are making descisions, not biologists.
Thank you for having emotion and care for muskies, lakes and other animals. At the same time remember that we need to support each other as much as the resource. |
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Posts: 999
| John, I think we all enjoy the challenge of catching muskies, and they grow big! That's whats so much more appealing to me over all the other species.
Mr Musky |
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Location: Milwaukee, WI | John,
I've been there & done it. I was PADI certified before I graduated from high school. That was decades ago. Spent many hours below in Lake Geneva, Lk Michigan, and a few others.
You make it sound SO EASY. Just buy the equipment, jump overboard and watch 'em ! Right ?
I don't agree !!!
It is NOT so easy!
These fish aren't everywhere in the water. I say they're just as hard, or harder to find from below, as above, the waterline.
And........many, or most musky waters with high populatioins of fish have POOR VISIBILITY. It tough to see 'em.
What about the buddy system ? There aren't too many diving partners to found these days.
Finally.....& most importantly, I really enjoy THE PROCESS of angling for them. I can & have done it both ways & I PREFER angling.
If I didn't enjoy it.................I would not do it.
But, I cannot argue your point about viewing being less damaging than catching !
VIVA la difference !!!
Chuck |
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Location: Sun Prairie, WI | John Thomas...you're missing the point as to why we C&R, use big nets, take quick pictures, etc. It's so we can KEEP catching them. Yes, we want to protect them, but it's a sport that we enjoy and if conservation tactics weren't used, we would deplete the resource.
Ego? What does that have to do with fishing? It's a sport period.
Why don't you ask the NFL to stop playing football b/c the ball is made from leather and leather comes from (GASP...here it comes!) ANIMALS! How about the leather belt you're wearing...where did that leather come from? Or your shoes for that matter. Ever eat a hamburger?
I take it from what you said that you're a vegan. If you're not, you're a hypocrite down to the core of your soul. I'm not being mean or disrespectful, I'm just stating the facts. You have to walk the walk if you're gonna talk the talk.
If indeed you are a vegan and don't use leather products, etc. I have respect for you in that you practice what you preach. I am in total disagreement with your sentiments, but respect the fact you believe enough in what you are saying by coming into "enemy territory" so to speak and stating your beliefs.
As for me, I'm gonna look for a few 2 pound, 4' baits to throw with a 15' rod next year in hopes of catching a big-arsed musky. (Sarcasm is indeed prevalent in this last sentence!) |
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| all this talk and reference to PETA and the "threat" they pose to our fishing rights only legitimizes what is in reality a radical belief that is very much on the fringe. shouting "the sky is falling" over their efforts to end fishing/hunting is unrealistic and only mongers fear where it's not needed.
xxxx...errrr...i mean "John Thomas" using it in this ironic way is one thing, but let's not respond by having a call to arms to fight PETA's agenda. the best thing to do about them is to ignore them, just like they deserve. don't give them a platform they don't deserve within our own circles.
go out, enjoy your outdoors sport(s), and invite someone new to come along. positive approaches to grow enjoyment of the outdoors such as Angler's Legacy are the right answer.
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Location: WI | What if you can't swim? I guess a glass bottomed boat would be the next step...Tuffy coming up with a new musky boat? |
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| RENEWABLE RESOURCE. |
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| I ain't swimmin in that water, man. There's MUSKIES in there!  |
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Location: Muskegon Michigan | John, John, John, are you a plant from the evil Peta? Or just a guy like me who thinks that this sport has gotton a little too elitest attitude oriented? Lets face it guys If we fish for them we are going to kill some of them. That is why we stock fish, educate fishermen on proper release methods and do everything we can to insure that these Muskies survive to fight another day.
Where we go wrong is when we beat some one up because they took 5 pictures or accidently kill one. Many of us myself included have been far too critical of others who dont measure up to our standard of release ethics. The Musky world is stocking far more fish than are killed every year. Fisheries are popping up all over the country and Canada . There are lakes that need to be harvested and lakes that need release only regs. Its all about common sense to me. I had the pleasure of fishing Fluke Lake in western Ontario in 2006. My wife and caught 104 muskies in 9.5 days. This lake could use some harvest as zero fish were over 40 inches. There are many lakes like this one where we should be eating few. On the other hand there are lakes here in Michigan where Muskies are so rare they should be protected from any harvest at all.
John, I dont think diving is for me. The thrill of the chase, the strikes and battles are all reasons why I choose to fish for Muskies. I let them live because there are not many of them where I am located. If they ever get over populated I would recommend eating some of them to cut numbers back. ( Linders selective harvest). A musky would eat you if it could. They are a cold blooded and calculating killer ,a T-REX of the lake. They have been placed on the chain at a lower level than humans for our consumption and or pleasure. Controlling them is a task that we should embrace and do with science not passion. They do not belong everywhere but are needed in many waters where they do not exist. Another fact to look at is this, they inflict more damage to themselves that we do to them. Look at them after the spawn??? Kingfisher |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I still think I would whack 'em and stack 'em before I went that far. But that's just me. I already know how to dive, and it is uncomfortable for me. I get all wet, and sometimes I get cold. I have to breath thorough a tube, which I hope to never have to do, and look through a mask I have to spit on. I have to wear lead weights to compensate for the fact fat floats. ALOT of lead weights. Then there's that flipper on the feet thing.
I like killing bluegills and crappies. Deer too. Ya have to to eat 'em, and I'm not squeamish about it. I get a tiny bit of a rush out of whacking my eater pike over the head with a custom made bat, too.
It's kind fun vacuum packing up a meal of fish. Some fish die just thinking about that.
The venison breakfast sausage was STELLAR this morning.
There's your dark side, Skywalker. |
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| Laugh. Out. Loud.
Were I feeling any there was any legitimacy in the post I would respond. I don't respond to whackos. |
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| sworrall - 1/3/2008 1:00 PM
...I get a tiny bit of a rush out of whacking my eater pike over the head with a custom made bat, too....
There's your dark side, Skywalker.
Hmmm... I might just have to reconsider that invitation to stay at the hideout. Or at least bring a helmet!  |
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Location: minocqua, wi. | www.youjustdid.com |
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| another trehugging PETA whackjob... |
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Location: Wausau, Wisconsin | Mr. Winther,
While I greatly respect you and enjoy your posts, I have to disagree. While we ignore the "threat" of people publishing youth-based literature that quotes "you're daddy is a murderer", these people are out spending millions of dollars to recruit new hate towards our way of life. I'm not saying we need to burn their buildings down, they are the terrorists, what I propose is that sportsmen shut up, quit bickering back and forth and put forth the same amount of effort recruiting kids into fishing as they do fighting with each other. It is a receipe for disaster and the sky will fall. When you see kids killing each other in school, every kid that comes into Gander Mtn with an adult is a blessing to me. I for one find far more enjoyment of volunteering my time to Angler's Legacy, Kippenberg Creek and Big, Challenge the Outdoors, NWTF Jakes and Brothers Big Sisters then reading the vomit that is leading to malice within our brotherhood.
I'm not rightous, it's just my two cents. It's time of the pendelum to swing.
Hunters are on the decline, fishing will follow. We aren't working hard enough.
Edited by 8inchcrank 1/3/2008 1:39 PM
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