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Posts: 3508
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Tried to do a search for this, but it seems as though I was unable to get the search function to work yet...
Anyone know for sure if this is happening this year? What are the dates? How do you think it will affect the general opener up north over Memorial day weekend?
Thanks
Steve |
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Location: The Yahara Chain | It doesn't go into effect until 2009. |
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Location: Yahara River Chain | Not this year. The WDNR is working out the language for the new regulation. It will be in the 2009 regulations and you can start fishing then. |
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| Anyone willing to give the over/under on guys getting pinched on this in 2008 who don't read their regs? |
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Location: Grand Rapids, Michigan | I bet even is they read the regs some people will still try to get away with it and say they didnt know |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I doubt it. The Wardens here don't give in much to stupid excuses. |
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Posts: 272
| Other than people not wanting to stick their neck out and perhaps be labeled as a whistle-blower....is there some other reason why more names of the people who pushed for this are NOT coming to the surface "publicly?"
Representative Meyers is a public figure, so he's fair game. But I'm sure he didn't do this all by himself.
Edited by muskie-addict 1/2/2008 12:53 PM
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Posts: 32951
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I think it was tourism folks applying pressure for the most part. |
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| Even though it doesn't go into effect until 2009...
How do you think it will impact the Memorial Day opener? Do you think it will reduce the number of boats out on that Saturday morning?
Steve |
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Posts: 272
| sworrall - 1/2/2008 1:04 PM
I think it was tourism folks applying pressure for the most part.
.....meaning its just "tourism" people in general, a faceless entity pushing for this? I'm hearing names of fishing guides thrown around privately as specific people who lobbied hard.
Minnesota and Canada must just sit back and laugh. We're going backward. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | We don't publish 'rumor and innuendo'. If a Guide 'lobbied hard', then so be it, I am not aware of any articles, press releases, or other items confirming that.
I was told the lobby behind this was Tourism based.
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Location: Elgin, IL | No, they don't give in much to really good excuses either.  |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Well Mark, you know what they say about excuses....hehehehehe. |
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| sworrall - 1/2/2008 2:12 PM
We don't publish 'rumor and innuendo'. If a Guide 'lobbied hard', then so be it, I am not aware of any articles, press releases, or other items confirming that.
I was told the lobby behind this was Tourism based.
So "tourism people" is a sufficient answer when the WHO question comes up?
I realize this is not a site that publishes paper literature like some other outdoor sites are....but do we really need to wait for a press release? Are we really content to just be THAT un-proactive about following up on this? It doesn't take a news conference to figure out who is behind this. I actually found out in general conversation on a PM about something else.
There is no "rumor or innuendo" in KNOWING who it was behind this. Wouldn't the readers on here like to know who it was that pushed for this so they could choose for themselves whether or not to support the guides and/or their brick and mortar businesses as well?
*edit
I'm not calling out anybody on M1st with this post. I'm not expecting M1st to seek and publish it either. I'm really just wondering why names have not been exposed on here. By anyone, moderator or average joe sixpack musky fisherman. It baffles me. Am I the last one?
Edited by muskie-addict 1/2/2008 8:17 PM
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Posts: 32951
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | It is sufficient for me, yes. Business and Tourism interests in Eagle River and the surrounding area seem to be the obvious, since the politician responsible was undoubtedly working for his constituents. That's what they do, pretty much. If there was a 'muskie angler' lobby behind this, I haven't heard anything and I do keep my ear to the wall, so to speak. Fact is the legal structure we have in this State allows for this sort of thing to happen. You are looking for someone to 'blame', right? Blame the guy who authored the bill, and the person who signed it into law. As far as rumor and innuendo, all 'I heards' are just that until confirmed by at least three credible sources. There's your standard. Then you have a 'story', what to do with it? With what motivation? |
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Posts: 272
| sworrall - 1/2/2008 8:58 PM
If there was a 'muskie angler' lobby behind this.......
No offense, but sure seems obvious there was a muskie angler lobby behind this. After all, the bill allows for a new, longer musky fishing season......and this very topic was brought up, by guides, with the CC and spring hearings and shot down at least twice.
To answer your last question, the motivation would be to inform people, so they can choose to avoid spending money with the guides and business people behind it. Otherwise, they win, without consequence, and "we" take it in the shorts.
-Eric
Edited by muskie-addict 1/2/2008 11:09 PM
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | So you want to use this information to bash and punish individuals by suggesting others here 'boycott' their businesses, right? You want to cause harm to individuals who, using politics and legal avenues, got a change made in the DNR regulations, right?
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Location: minocqua, wi. | somebody tell me how easy it is to catch a musky during the spawn .... and without a spear? ... the congressman is representing an area that lives off of maybe 5 months of tourism a year ... "if" we get snow which hasn't happened much in the last 10 years. his constituency is resort and tourism and the people who "live" off of the visitors to the area support him and voted him in .... it's an industry with a dnr who stocks and polices along with a natural reproduction to boost ... he's doing his work for his broader level of supporters ...
now, will it hurt or won't it ... who knows ... it is surprising to see that the dnr isn't involved in the legislation and they are likely wondering why ...
but, my question to you musky-addict is this .... what's the secret to catching spawning muskies? .... this new season .... i don't get it ... are they easier to catch? cause my experience has been that they could give a crud about eating a bait when they're spawning and usually wait awhile before eating ...
i just don't see this as that big of a deal ... so a guide gets a few more dates and can buy a few more bags of potatoes and groceries ... and a city sells more hotel rooms and fish fries ... and a few more tourists catch a couple fish ... wtf? ... i'm a catch and release guy ... but sometimes i read the b.s. on the internet and then don't wonder why people look at the musky fishermen like the idiots we show ourselves as sometimes ...
oops ... there i am being out there and honest again ... it must be winter
Edited by jonnysled 1/3/2008 1:55 AM
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| You know I am really surprised this hasnt gotten more attention. At least here anyway. What bothers me the most was how they did it, not why they did it.
I would have liked it to been voted on at the spring hearings. But of course it never made it to the ballot because it got shot down locally before it had a chance.
These people took a system we had in place for things like this, and made a mockery of it. Setting a bad precedent of how things will most certainly be done in the future. If things dont go our way lets go buy a politician.
I would at least like the clowns who supported this to come forward and have the marbles to own up to it and be there to face some people that are pretty pissed off. But that wont happen, why should they stick their neck out, they already screwed us, so what would they have to gain by it now.
They may not be easier to "catch" but they are going to be alot easier to "snag". And at a critical time, and for what? A few dollars more. Shameful!
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Location: Black Creek, WI | Shane Mason - 1/3/2008 5:40 AM
What bothers me the most was how they did it, not why they did it.
Would the method (how) have been accepted had it been used to achieve a 54" Size Limit on Green Bay?
Just a thought.... |
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| Very good question Jason, glad you asked, I think I covered that answer pretty well in the Green bay Recap thread but I will copy it to here.
"One last thing I wanted to say, I have heard a bit of talk on "why dont we just buy ourselves a politician like they did for the early season they backdoored on us?"
Bad Idea! The precedent that was set there is one I will not support. In fact if it did start down the dark path you are going to see skid marks leaving as far as my voice goes.
This is not how to get things done, and I for one would hate to stoop to that level. I still want to be able to sleep at night."
Hope that answers your question |
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| If the people hoping to profit off this were just kind of hoping it would go away or get swept under the rug, its not likely at this point. Its been covered pretty well over on the "the Next Bite" website so I really dont feel like rehashing other posts, Its a good read with input by those who are looking out for the best interest of the fishery, not their own pockets. Thats kind of the reason I am so baffled by its lack of coverage here. Biology aside, common sense alone tells you this is a bad idea. In Minnesota and Canada they dont start the seasons untill well after the spawn, to protect the fishery, for the benifit of everyone. Not just guys who "want to buy a few more groceries" "Minnesota and Canada must just sit back and laugh. We're going backward." pretty much says it best.
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| Wow Shane, you are much more of an upstanding person than I am!
If I could get Dan Meyer to piggy back some high size limits on a bunch of Oneida Co. lakes I'd be buying him steak dinners and lap dances right now!  |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Shane,
You made my point for me, as did Mr. Long. I was hoping that muskie-addict would continue his line of thought so I could make the point that the process used to acquire the C&R season up here is legal and has been in place for a very long time. Look to the deer baiting issue for another example, the DNR outlawed baiting, and the legislature re-instated the practice with tighter controls set by the DNR. Why? Basically the same setup we have with the C&R Muskie season; they COULD have tried to open the season on the first Saturday in May as it used to be, but instead, did what could be construed as a compromise move with the C&R only special season.
One doesn't 'buy' a politician for an item like this; one simply works with that persons office to try and get what one wishes. That statement also insinuates that the politician and the folks who pushed for the change are dishonest or worse, when in fact they were simply clever. Why is it when something happens that folks don't like the insults begin to fly...I PROMISE you, the opposition to the proposal set forth by the Coalition a few days back for Green Bay don't look at that attempt to change the law much differently than we view the C&R season change debacle.
I think it's bad policy to allow the legislature to change DNR management practices. I think it's bad that our DNR Secretary serves at the pleasure of our Governor. I think it's bad policy to underfund the single most important entity to the health of our north woods economy, which once you pass Rhinelander is almost purely tourism based. I think it's a shame we can't work with the tribes more closely to negotiate walleye limits that would again draw out of the area anglers to our resorts and hotels. I thnink it's a shame that the weather has been horrible for winter sports up here for 10 years, and that the Tourism interests have to fight with conservationists and our DNR to ty keep folks coming to the area. Witness the ridiculous unfunded mandate to the DNR which resulted (long story, it was covered by OutdoorsFIRST extensively) in the newly proposed tournament fees and permit structure, driven by Lake Association and 'water use' special interest groups.
But it's now what it is. What is to be done for it, I ask. 'Covering the subject' on the Next Bite or any website won't get anything changed, it simply allows for venting frustration and encourages the polarization of the various interest groups instead of creating action attempting to acquire change. Folks like Tom and Norm and Mike who actually try to get something done are the poeple who impress me. Note they didn't insult the opposing viewpoint or parties publicly, they instead lobbied for what they and their supporters felt is the right thing to do, in the process moving folks from the opposition to their point of view.
Democracy at work. |
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Location: Black Creek, WI | Shane, thanks for the excellent response. Very good answer, in my opinion.
Oneida Esox, thanks for keeping it real. My guess is that although Shane himself wouldn't have pursued a size limit change in that manner.... I bet he'd still be happy with the outcome and less critical of the process had that road been taken by others.
I think its time to quit worrying about HOW it got done and perhaps investing more energy in how the angling community will/should deal with it. |
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| Steve, you can use whatever emotionally loaded, internet buzzwords you choose. Call it a bash. I'm calling it spending money with your conscience if this is something you feel passionate about. Kinda like buying a T-shirt that WASN'T made by a six-year-old in a Bangladesh sweatshop....or dolphin safe tuna. Its making an informed decision.
Sled, if talking about this makes me an idiot in the eyes of grocery getting guides, then so be it. I'm happy to wear that dunce cap.
I don't know what the secret is. And, yup, the spawn bite is definitely a roll of the dice. But, its clear someone thought it was worth trying for them during the spawn, and wished to capitalize on it, and plan on doing so....or we wouldn't be having this discussion.
If you had to choose "A" or "B".....would you NOT choose to leave the fish alone?
Its funny, in the conversations I have with people I fish with, especially ones outside the state, they continually say, "Sheesh, Wisconsin just continues to go backwards, don't they." But in some circles, the "what's the big deal" crowd shows up.
Edited by muskie-addict 1/3/2008 9:51 AM
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Location: minocqua, wi. | i think the argument started with needing to put out a list of guides so that people could throw stones their way ... it was a legislative move by a state congressman from eagle river who was trying to help his constituency ... the economy in the nation is struggling and i think we all can say that right? ... now imagine an economy that drives off of the "extra" spending money of people who now don't have as much ... if there are more weekends and more events than there were the prior year then it has the potential to increase the volume of people, their money into the economy this guy represents ... i really don't think it's the conspiracy folks make it out to be ...
trying to use the kiss the fish argument to fight against it i think is futile. trying to identify a smoking gun list of supporting guides ... what good is that going to do even if there were such a thing?
i fish a stretch of river for opening day almost every year for the past 10 years ... it's been relatively cold over the past number of years on average making it post-spawn but sometimes close ... we've caught into the double digits of fish and mostly males with a few females ... there were two years where the water temps. suggested it would have been at or just before the spawn ... skunko ... same guys, same water same, same, same ... this on a stretch where the record was 17 fish in 3 days between 3 guys with many more lost ... big, healthy population of muskies ...
so ... the definition of idiot in my post was toward a lynch mob trying to make a list of guides and then try to hurt their business by bashing them. you laid the claim toward yourself not me ...
i'd rather tell dan that trying to extend a season for muskies which will be harder to catch during that time of year, let's put out a campaign to try to help the country (specifically those in the south) understand how good the smallmouth bass fishery is in northern wisconsin and start some awareness and/or tournament campaign to coax them north for a break from the summer heat ...
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Why does the DNR and ultimately our lawmakers manage our fisheries? What is the goal, to satisfy US, and those who think as we do, or to satisfy the general fishing public, the businesses they support, and all of the combined interests who pay the taxes that pay for the management programs in the first place? If you think the new C&R season is not good for the fisheries, then DO something positive to get the season changed back. I promise you, no one who CAN get this changed will give you more than an irritated 2 minutes if you are spouting insults and hollering 'boycott!!!'. Remember the folks from PARR? I do. That damage has lasted a couple decades and may never be reversed.
'Bash'--- exactly right. it's an internet word, but not a buzz word. Self explanatory. We don't allow that here, because we want folks from both sides and the MIDDLE of any issue to feel welcome here.Maybe then, just MAYBE, we can assist in getting the viewpoints from all sides of the issue expressed and get folks together to implement change or at least understand why change is difficult to acquire.
What I've been trying to say I find myself saying alot. You want to talk frustration, try dealing with good folks, all with what they feel are valid and well placed interests, who disagree over something like this. One or two from each side will want to throw stones and hurl insults to try to win the day, and that sir, just plain doesn't get anyone anywhere. There's your 'secret'. |
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| Sorry Steve, I think this is another case where we will have to agree to disagree. And I have said I will not publicly throw anyone under the bus. However if someone asks me, I will tell them, and let them make an informed decision as to what is in their best interest.
Being that I am a guide up north I know I will take more than my share of heat for this, so be it. Sometimes fighting for the things you believe in aren't always the most popular.
I have stated before, had this been done the right way, gone through the proper channels and not forced down our throats on a budget bill, you wouldnt have heard a peep out of me on this. But the fact is it was defeated at the defeated at the local level democratically to even be introduced to be on the ballot. Then the only dept of the DNR that was in on this was the tourism bureau, no biologist support that I have heard and I have been doing alot of digging. If we would have had a vote, with a biologist signing off, not one peep. But I see there are a few folks other than me who can smell a fart too. Thats what all the fuss is about.
Sorry for those of you who see this as the way to get things done. To me it was a slap in the face to the guys who do go through the proper channels and do it the right way. I know its hard and frustrating, but it is for everyone. Shortcuts arent the answer, even with the best of intentions. |
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| Ah...guys....
Would anyone be willing to answer the ORIGINAL question about how you think it will impact the normal opener?
Never thought I'd see this much debate with a simple question...funny how things can get changed and the original topic lost in the shuffle. I see no sense in arguing over the whole thing (who dunnit and why)...if you want change, get together as A GROUP and start forming A SOLUTION to it...if it is considered a problem.
I just had a simple question about it which was asking for simple opinions about how the early season might affect the memorial day pressure on the water....
Thanks
steve
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