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Posts: 1245
Location: Madtown, WI | This makes me sick....this DID get signed...only one small section was vetoed.
This is from an email I got from Tim Simonson from the WIDNR.
Looks like POTENTIALLY (per Tim:I'm not yet positive this will take effect in 2008….I think we still need to promulgate administrative code before it takes effect….my opinion - waiting to hear from legal.) as early as next spring folks will be targeting pre-spawn muskies in WI!
I personally don't like this idea one bit.
Cory
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The only thing that was vetoed was the requirement for EVERYONE to use barbless hooks during the NEW musky catch and release season, which will start on May 3, 2008, north of US Highway 10.
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From: Staggs, Mike D - DNR
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 12:02 PM
To: Staggs, Mike D - DNR; DNR DL WD FH Fish Brd; Stark, Randall J - DNR; Van Haren, Thomas - DNR
Cc: Simonson, Timothy D - DNR; Hennessy, Joseph - DNR; Scheidegger, Karl J - DNR
Subject: RE: Budget Items relating to musky and bass seasons FW: Budget Vetoes
I forgot to mention below that anglers fishing for musky or bass during the catch-release seasons must also use only artificial lures.
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From: Staggs, Mike D - DNR
Sent: Friday, October 26, 2007 10:57 AM
To: DNR DL WD FH Fish Brd; Stark, Randall J - DNR; Van Haren, Thomas - DNR
Cc: Simonson, Timothy D - DNR; Hennessy, Joseph - DNR; Scheidegger, Karl J - DNR
Subject: Budget Items relating to musky and bass seasons FW: Budget Vetoes
Importance: High
FYI: We were surprised to learn that the budget also included a new musky catch and release season for the period between the opening day and whenever the musky season opens north of Hwy 10 for inland waters (no change for MI boundary waters, unclear yet on MN boundary waters).
More troubling however was misdrafted actual language relating to use of barbless hooks. The legislature intended to require the use of barbless hooks only for those fishing for bass or muskies during any catch and release seasons - but as written and then approved by the legislature below, the statute would have required EVERYBODY to fish with barbless hooks during either the newly created musky CR season or the long standing bass CR season in N WI. It would have been very helpful if somebody had consulted with us prior to this happening, but such are the foibles of including non-budget policy items in a large omnibus budget bill.
We have brought this to the attention of the administration and they have decided to veto the word "during" in each of the new subsections (demarcated in red below). The belief is that the new wording "while fishing a catch and release bass fishing season" or "while fishing the catch and release muskellunge fishing season" can be construed to apply only to those actually fishing for bass and/or muskies, and it is my understanding that is how LE will enforce this next spring.
Bottom line is that there will be a musky catch and release season on inland waters north of Highway 10 from May 3rd until May 23, 2008. Barbless hooks will be required of any anglers fishing for muskies during this period. Barbless hooks will also be required for any anglers fishing for largemouth or smallmouth bass in the Northern Bass Management Zone from May 3rd until June 20, 2008.
Please share this information with your affected fisheries staff so they will be aware of this new rule and be able to answer any questions that may arise from the public. We'll figure out how to get the word out to the public as the season approaches.
29.426 Catch and release bass fishing. No person may use any hook, bait,
or lure, other than an artificial lure that has a barbless hook, while fishing *during*
a catch and release bass fishing season established by the department.
29.428 Catch and release muskellunge fishing. (1) The department shall
establish a fishing season that authorizes catch and release muskellunge fishing on
inland waters north of USH 10 other than the boundary waters between this state
and the state of Michigan. The catch and release muskellunge fishing season
established under this section shall begin on the first day of the general fishing
season established by the department and shall end on the day before the first day
of the regular muskellunge fishing season established by the department.
(2) No person may use any hook, bait, or lure, other than an artificial lure that
has a barbless hook, while fishing *during* the catch and release muskellunge fishing
season established by the department under sub. (1).
Edited by C.Painter 10/30/2007 10:16 AM
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Posts: 639
Location: Hudson, WI | I'm obviously no biologist, but maybe it won't be that bad, Corey. I think the water will still be cold enough that the majority of fish can be released without incident. Definitely a chance to have a 10 fish day. |
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Posts: 714
Location: Rhinelander, WI | Wow, different than the way I interpreted the Governor’s Veto press release which stated the following:
Muskellunge Fishing Season and Catch and Release Bass Fishing
Sections 712m and 712r
Section 712m prohibits a person from using any hook, bait or lure, other than an artificial lure that has a barbless hook, while fishing during a catch and release bass fishing season established by the Department of Natural Resources. Section 712r requires the department to establish a fishing season that authorizes catch and release muskellunge fishing on inland waters north of U.S. Highway 10 other than the boundary waters between this state and the state of Michigan. It also prohibits a person from using any hook, bait or lure, other than an artificial lure that has a barbless hook, while fishing during the catch and release muskellunge fishing season established by the department.
"I am partially vetoing sections 712m and 712r because they would apply to more people than those who are only fishing catch and release for bass and muskellunge."
I guess “partially vetoing” meant deleting one word “during”. Man you have to love politics and lawyers.
So what does this mean for our naturally reproducing musky waters north of Hwy 10?
Any expert biological opinions out there?
There goes three solid reasons for early spring fishing trips. Opening day south of Hwy 10, Opening day of MI musky fishing, and the northern WI musky opener.
And there goes my May walleye fishing, as now I will feel the need to musky fish so I get the chance at unpressured fish on my favorite lakes.
The violators wont be out harassing fish all by themselves, if you can call that a good thing. Of course they will be out using barbed hooks, “really I am fishing monster pike with this 9” suick.”
AMAZING we have to work for 2 years to get a law to protect fish and with NO biological input from the State Biologist this potentially damaging rule change is slipped into a must pass budget, and made law in less than 9 months. POLITICS are AWESOME!!!!!!!!!
Nail A Pig!
Mike
Edited by MRoberts 10/30/2007 10:42 AM
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Great. Some more almost impossible to enforce regulations. So if I am on Pelican or any other water I pike ( I like eating Pike) fish early tossing smaller spinnerbaits ( which I do and have never caught a Muskie yet) how do I 'prove' I'm not fishing bass or Muskie? On lakes I target very early pre-spawn bass or late post spawn bass, that's easier to tell what it is I am fishing for. I'll have my son custom build some barbless hook bass spinnerbaits, I guess.
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Posts: 8844
| Well, let's be honest for a minute -- during the spawn, what are 'ya gonna do, snag them? They're not going to open their mouths or chase baits very much anyway. The whole thing is kinda stupid -- beginning of May some years you may find there's still ice on some of the lakes. |
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Posts: 639
Location: Hudson, WI | Steve, I asked my neighbor who is a warden for St. Croix County about that issue last year. Just to verify, I called another warden in Eau Claire to see what they both would say. From what I gather, if you are fishing a lake with a solid (and reputable) population of pike, you are totally fine throwing anything you want. The law is absolutely impossible to enforce, straight from the mouth of 2 different wardens. That said, the guy in Eau Claire said, "If you're out on Bone or Deer (lakes without a lot of pike) throwing a magnum bulldawg, there'd be trouble." |
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Posts: 691
Location: nationwide | I am probably in the minority here but I am estatic about it. I no longer have to chase "sub-species" for the first weeks of the fishing season and can target muskies from the regular fishing opener. And grinding off the barbs on a few lures is no biggie either and they will be replaced with barbed hooks once the standard muskie opener comes along Memorial Day weekend. I am figuring this will be changed somehow by next May.
Corey Meyer |
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Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Jeff,
I've seen plenty of muskies eat during the spawn. There is a spot here in Point where one can go and see a big pile of giant fish all in one area spawning. I've seen countless fish caught here and some real sows to boot. It does seem like another tough to enforce policy....man are we good at drawing those up! |
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Posts: 31
Location: Syracuse, New York | It will be interesting to see how this type of regulation may impact musky populations. Here in NY, many waters have carried an open C&R season for bass year round and the bass populations have not suffered. If anything they have largely improved during this time period. Musky populations are completely different, however. If I knew it was not affecting the fishery, I would certainly love to target muskies in the spring. Plus it may help businesses. Like I said, it will be interesting to see the ramifications of this type of legislation. |
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Posts: 714
Location: Rhinelander, WI | In all honesty, my untrained, opinion is this probably won’t adversely effect the musky population. I have fished the May 15th MI opener for almost 10 years now. We have had some great days (nine fish day one year) and some rotten days, but never have we caught what we thought was a fish that was harmed by the catching. I.E. leaked milt or spawn all over the boat. MI is north of WI and the regular WI opener can range from May 1st to May 7th so that is only 1 to 2 weeks later. Every year will be different depending on weather.
What really bothers me is the process and the Biologist where NOT EVEN ASKED if it was a good idea.
I think hitchcos hit the nail on the head as to why “Plus it may help businesses.”
So trophy muskies be #*^@ed, (Eeven though trophy muskies are drawing people to Green Bay by the thousands) we can recoup some of the musky tourist dollars that are heading to MN by opening our musky season even earlier. Even if there is a potential risk to the musky population itself.
We can’t get the legislators to say or do BOO about helping build a robust numbers and trophy musky fishery alike in WI, but they will jump on and promote an issue like this with no biological support.
That in a nutshell is what bothers me the most about this.
As far as the unenforceable issues of this, I see it as a wash. It’s no more or less enforceable than the current closed season. Same issues as far as fishing for pike. At least now the law breakers wont be out there alone taking advantage of lower pressure overall.
Nail A Pig!
Mike
Edited by MRoberts 10/30/2007 11:55 AM
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'As far as the unenforceable issues of this, I see it as a wash. It’s no more or less enforceable than the current closed season.'
It's way less enforceable. Basically, everyone fishing a lure larger than a couple inches long is open to an interpretive ticket for it not being barbless, forcing the Warden to look at every bait on every rod, and forcing me to build baits used only during that time frame.
IMHO, this will add another silly law enforcement issue for our already overburdened Wardens.
And, since it was mentioned, what is the deal with forcing barbless hooks during THAT season? Is it the HOOKS we are to be worried about, and not the stress of catching a prespawn or spawning muskie? If indeed the hooks are the culprit then, why are they not later, and shouldn't they be banned altogether? Does our legislature/DNR consider a fish caught on a barbed hook 'harvested' because the hook on an artificial is going to kill the fish ONLY if it has a barb? Is one caught on a barbless hook 'not harvested'?
How about no hooks at all, and we just get the thrill of the strike? Much safer for the fish, I submit, tongue firmly in cheek...
Maybe velcro. |
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Posts: 2687
Location: Hayward, WI | Steve Worrall - 10/30/2007 12:09 PM
Maybe velcro.
Yes, that's the best idea yet. From now on all stocked fish will have a piece of velcro stuck to the inside of their mouth. We can put the soft fluffy half in their mouth and stick the more coarse part with the "hooks" on our lures. You will be given a pack of velcro strips when you buy a license. When you catch a fish on a hook, you can stick the velcro piece in it's mouth. Fishing with real hooks will be allowed for two years to velcro-stick some of the resident fish in the lakes. The evolution of extremely long and limber rods, along with reverting back to stretchy mono lines will take place, to keep fish velcroed, and the slogan of musky fisherman statewide will change to "go velcro a pig."
Seriously, I don't know what to think about this law. In a way, it would be nice to fish for muskies early in the year. I've ran into a few muskies while walleye fishing early in the year, and thought it would be nice to target a fish that just took a swipe at your walleye. On the other hand, it seems like the season has been closed until the end of May for YEARS for a reason...
curleytail |
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Posts: 714
Location: Rhinelander, WI | In my opinion your missing the way I am looking at it Steve. Before “everyone fishing a lure larger than a couple inches long” could be pike fishing or musky fishing, in the eyes of a warden or in the eyes of another fisherman.
As a result many fishermen would see guys throwing larger sized baits and complain that guys are musky fishing out of season. Or they would see a musky size net and call the tip line. Now it is completely up to the Wardens discretion to inspect or not inspect a boat and they don’t have to hear it from every Tom Dick and Harry that wants to complain. Unless Tom, Dick and Harry are close enough to see barbs.
The wardens will still make the same call on whether the people in the boat are pike or musky fishing using the same rational they used before.
As to why barbless is better, I have no idea but someone must have been following the trout school of thought. Some well known anglers actually think barbless is MORE harmful to fish, as it allows deeper penetration.
Maybe they just wanted to keep something in the law that would keep the wardens on there toes and thinking. Heaven forbid a law that was easy to interpret.
Nail A Pig!
Mike
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Location: The Yahara Chain | Is there really any valid reason to not have the early season? They do it in a lot of states. I agree that barbless hooks are a silly side bar. Do the bass guys realize that they have to go barbless on their already established C and R season?
Here is a link with one bioligist's opinion on fishing for musky in early season.
http://muskie.outdoorsfirst.com/board/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=34...
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | No, I understand where you are coming from, Mike, but this is an aggravation and muddying of what was pretty obvious before. No muskie angling until the last Saturday in May. Now you can, but you have to use special tackle, making EVERYONE a potential ticket target and adding another 'let me see the (----) you are using' to the enforcement process. I get stopped on the water, the Warden checks my license, my fire extinguisher, my registration, my Guide license, my flotation devices, and now he has to look closely at my lures I am using or have obviously been using...ALL of them.
And for GOD'S Sake we shan't use a scope with any magnification at all ( but a red dot is OK, because it's, well, like it's, ummm...) to shoot a deer in Black Powder season, that just not right because w e w a n t t h e d e e r to....uhhh... If the rifle reaches out 100 yards, I can't see any reason...but...
Sir, lemme see that rifle, need to look through that red dot there to make sure you ain't using a scope with 3 power or anything, gotta be certain you can't easily place a good clean shot, there...seeing the deer clearly in the scope at 90 yards; why that ain't black powder hunting...
If one has a barbed hook, am I Pike fishing or getting a ticket? Was I using that for Pike, but the barbless for Muskie? What about lakes with ALL THREE, Pike, Muskie, and Bass? What if I am unhooking a Muskie but fishing for Walleye or Pike when the Warden shows up; would not be the first time, I bet.
Don't even get me started on the live bait angle that could be a problem here. A 6" shiner is...Pike bait? Bass? Muskie? None or all the above? JUST fishing Walleye here, sir!! A 1/4 ounce jig and creature....hmmmm. That catches 'em all, so the Warden will now have to know ALL about baits and which is for what specie and when there may be exception...geeeeeze this is stupid. Sorry, I just think the Legislature belongs the hell out of fishing and hunting regulation and this is a classic example of why.
AND!! Should not this regulation be in place for the entire state?? Why not?
If I am throwing a Weagle, it will have barbless hooks. Ah, rats, all my baits will until June now, I guess.
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Posts: 639
Location: Hudson, WI | I think the answer to all questions during the Barbless CnR season is "I'm fishing for pike." Warden: "That bucktail is 10 inches long. That's a musky bait." You: "Big Pike." |
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Posts: 1769
Location: Algonquin, ILL | Not sure how I feel about this but I think that we may be able to put a positive spin on this, I may be wrong but it is my understanding that " Spearing" is not permitted within ### Yards of a boat that is activly fishing, if this is truely the case then a bunch of boats fishing a known spawning area with barbless hooks could in fact save 1000s of fish in the long run
Just a thought
Edited by JohnMD 10/30/2007 1:30 PM
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Nope, the law protects the Native Americans to the point of not allowing other boats on the lake while they are spearing at night in some cases. You really don't want to get in their way, it's a serious crime to impede them in any way.
But let's not go there again... |
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Posts: 31
Location: Syracuse, New York | I'll preface this by saying it is the NY perspective:
Enforcement of these laws must be based on what you did, not on what you might do...you cannot be ticketed simply for fishing with any specific lure or hook unless it has been completely and specifically restricted from that body of water. Now, if you catch a musky with barbed hooks and continue on the same pattern with the same lure you could be ticketed. in the same way you can currently use any lure to fish for pike (in season) while musky season is closed. However if you catch musky, you must release it and alter your tactics to avoid a fine.
Again, that's how things are enforced out here.... |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | Does anyone "in the know" have an idea if this includes all the border lakes that currently have their own set of rules since they're shared with Michigan?? |
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Location: The Yahara Chain | Will Schultz - 10/30/2007 1:59 PM
Does anyone "in the know" have an idea if this includes all the border lakes that currently have their own set of rules since they're shared with Michigan??
The rules are the same in those, no change to the Michigan/Wisconsin border lakes. |
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Posts: 346
Location: In the slop! | Wow! Talk about making a mountain out of a barbless molehill. I guess since I have fished barbless for the last 10 or so years, that part of the legislation is the easiest to swallow. As far as them doing MORE damage, I've heard that argument too. I don't believe it but I've heard it. If the hook penetrates too deeply it is because of the distance from the point to the bottom of the bend! Geometry is the culprit here.
I would be much more worried about protecting pre-spawn fish than worrying about barbs on hooks. |
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Posts: 1936
Location: Eau Claire, WI | I ditto Worrall's thoughts on this.
I'm on the fence as far as legalizing of this season for bass and muskie, as I'm not a scientist and don't know what the effect if any there will be on the resource, but the way so many of these laws are written ( the blackpowder/scope issue is one of my personal favorites) make it obvious that the legislature does not belong in natural resources...That's why we have biologist, scientists, and should have resonable laws and regulations dictated by a DNR that works with the best interest of the resource and sportsman in mind.
Ah, yes.... one more reason to be a proud tax payer and voter in WI.
By the way...anyone know what state official introduced this one to get it on the budget bill? |
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Posts: 726
Location: Eau Claire, WI | For the sake of discussion...if a particular lake is classified as having no natural reproduction, do you guys see this as an issue for that lake? |
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Posts: 714
Location: Rhinelander, WI | Steve sorry I got your blood pressure up, but I understand your position far better now.
Jono, I don't think it would be a problem, which is why the Biologists have helped formulate a rule change question to extend the southern season until December 31. Most of the southern lakes have very limited reproduction and get stocked.
It wasn't that long ago that the musky opener opend the same day as the rest of the fish even north of Hwy 10. I believe it was changed in the 80s. Does anyone know why it was changed and if any sicence was used to do it?
One more thing if I am reading this correctly it says inland waters. Does that mean it does not affect Green Bay and it's tributarys?
Thanks
Nail A Pig!
Mike
Edited by MRoberts 10/30/2007 10:24 PM
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Mike,
You actually provided a window of opportunity for me to vent a bit; it was refreshing, to be honest. Good question on Green Bay.
I beg to differ with the 'mountain/molehill' comment. This is a poorly written law that was jammed through on a horribly written budget bill and into law without hardly a how'dy do to our fisheries managers with the DNR or the angling public. The new law creates an enforcement nightmare worse than the more than ridiculous 'no trolling' laws that created something as amorphous as a rule to describe 'position fishing'. The barbless hooks thing IMHO was thrown in to reduce the inevitable back lash from the public and the DNR, with little or no scientific/biological backing. The intent when the law changed to open the season after the spawn in the North where the muskies spawned later was primarily to protect the Muskies during that timeframe. I fail to see where barbless hooks even enter that debate.
I'm not sure if angling for Muskies during the spawn hurts them a bit. I suspect, from studies I have read about other fishes, that the impact will be minimal. That is not my point; I'm complaining about additional enforcement nightmares and more ridiculous things to be concerned about for someone just trying to go fishing and stay within the law.
Inland waters by definition doesn't effect Green Bay, but what does THAT mean...are we protecting the fish there early, or sending the anglers out there with a box full of newly changed hooks? |
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Posts: 346
Location: In the slop! | Steve, I understand your concern about the enforcement nightmare and I don't think Wisconsin needs another one either. However, barbless hooks are not the demon they are being made out to be in this thread. |
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Posts: 32935
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I don't see where anyone is demonizing barbless hooks; just the regulation that requires them.
There IS some evidence that in certain fish barbless can be as damaging or more so as barbed, but I don't think that's the case with Muskies. I don't know of any study on Muskies and barbless hooks, at least. |
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Posts: 663
| Just curious as to how the bass fishing community is reacting to this. I guess a guy can't use nightcrawlers or minnows to fish for bass until the catch & keep season. Oh wait, maybe he's "walleye" fishing. On the musky side you know darn well that guys will be chucking 5" chubs on jigs and claim that they're walleye fishing. For that matter what about all the countless muskies that get caught by walleye fishermen early? Should'nt they be required to go barbless too just in case they happen to catch a musky or bass? What a mess. These knuckleheads could screw up a one float parade. |
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Posts: 299
Location: Nowheresville, MN | Legislature enacting a fishery protocol without biological basis, hmm....sounds familiar....Let's see.... Oh Yeah....Minnesota's "Accelerated Walleye Program"... |
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