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Posts: 714
Location: Rhinelander, WI | This is for WI inland waters only, goal would be to not affect waters where trolling is currently legal. There are lots of different options but lets start here. Please explain or expand below.
Is there much interest in this? My main interest is to clarify the silly position fishing rule.
There is a movement afoot to get this changed, but I am not sure what would be best. All I know the current reg. is to open for interpretation.
Nail A Pig!
Mike
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Posts: 714
Location: Rhinelander, WI | This may be useful, the current regulation is as follows:
2007-08 Wisconsin Guide to Hook and Line Fishing Regulations.
Page 6 and 7 - Statewide Fishing Restrictions
It is illegal— to motor troll except in counties and waters listed in the section titled Special Regulations—Listed by County (see definition of motor trolling on page 16).
Page 16 - Motor Trolling
“Motor trolling” is trailing a lure, bait, or similar device used to attract or catch fish from a boat while being propelled (forwards or backwards) by a motor or a sail or while being towed by a boat being propelled by a motor or sail. Motor trolling is illegal except in some counties and waters as listed in the section titled Special Regulations—Listed by County, beginning on page 19. Casting and immediate retrieval of a bait or lure while positioning a boat is not trolling. “Backtrolling” is only legal in waters where motor trolling is allowed. “Position fishing” is fishing from a boat where the fishing line extends vertically into the water while the boat is maneuvered (forwards or backwards) by a motor used to position or maintain the position of the boat over underwater structure. Position fishing is allowed statewide in all waters.
Nail A Pig!
Mike
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Posts: 157
Location: Wausau/Phillips WI | Most lakes in WI are too small and crowded at the best times. It's bad enough now without someone [complaining] because i'm in the way of their trolling run. I've learned that there is a certain percentage of guys that don't have any form of on-the-water etiquette. On a big lake after Labor day maybe it would work.
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Posts: 67
Location: St. Germain, Wi | I chose electric only. What I really want is to be able to trail a sucker while casting and moving with the electric. Its hard for me to accept that is trolling. Hopefully we will be able to use suckers in the future. I would very unhappy if they prohibit live bait. Jim |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I don't think etiquette is the largest potential problem; this is a water-use issue not terribly different in my mind than the Jet Ski crowd angry because there is a tournament on the water they want to cruise.
I think lakes 500 acres and smaller would potentially be 'small' enough to create more controversy over water use by trollers. Tollers/Casters share the waters just fine on lakes and rivers of all sizes across the country, so this isn't even a 'real' objection from a reality based viewpoint; it's more of a concession to the anti-trolling folks than anything else. |
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| Sorno and i discussed this issue while fishing with Howie Meyer over the weekend.
prior to this i was mostly in favor of legalizing trolling due to the fact that there's no research (that i'm aware of) that supports trolling as having a greater impact on the fish than casting.
but then Howie pointed out aspects other than just the fish on lakes such as the one we were fishing (approx 200 acres). it was pristine, quiet, and had a sense of slowness to it. he commented that a boat trolling laps around this very small lake would significantly change the aesthetic value of the experience. he then simply said, "it's good to preserve some of this somewhere."
he changed my mind and i'd vote against broadly legalizing motor trolling in northern Wisconsin if it were up for a vote at the Conservation Congress hearings. i'd consider a proposal for allowing it on large lakes (over 1000 acres?).
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Posts: 189
Location: Barrington, Il | You should be allowed to troll on all waters of Wisconsin regardless of size. I voted for limiting number of lines per boat only because I think that would pass easier than just allowing trolling across the board. You do not need planer boards to catch fish. In fact you have better control without them.
I don't see how allowing trolling will add pressure to the waters. Not everyone is going to troll. If you don't like to troll, don't do it. Just don't tell me I can't just because you don't want to.
Why limit the size of the lakes? You are worried about a troller on Labor Day? What about all the water skiers, pontooners, and jet skis? There is pressure everywhere, fish around it. Nobody told you fish in the middle of day labor day weekend.
Trolling is only another tool to be used in your arsenal.
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Posts: 8788
| Oh how your perspective changes! A year or so ago I would have said let people troll. Today I say leave it alone. I don't think it would hurt the fish, decimate populations, etc. Truth be told the no-trolling law is pretty dumb in terms of conservation.
But you know what? I'm turning into one of "those guys". One of those guys who appreciates the serenity of a quiet northwoods lake (enough to plant roots there in fact) and now wishes to preserve it. In fact, I would probably fight for this if given the opportunity. On a large lake? Fine, whatever. But I fished with Howie on one of his little black lagoons, shared the lake with exactly one other boat all day. The only sound we heard besides our own boat was some idiot on the shore with a leaf blower (dude, it's the northwoods, what are you DOING??)
Perhaps the law is more about keeping things the way they have always been -- quiet, peaceful, unscathed, unspoiled and QUIET. And maybe, JUST MAYBE upholding tradition despite the fact that all logic points elsewhere isn't all that bad after all. You wanna troll? Go down South and troll all 'ya want. You wanna troll up here? Here's a couple oars, knock yourself out. |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | What Lambeau said.
Northern WI is a unique place with the 100-500 acre potholes. It is a serene setting, I really don't cherish the idea of two or three boats dragging baits around these lakes all day. It would kind of destroy the setting. It has nothing to do with increased pressure on these lakes, just a different, noisier, more intrusive pressure.
The larger lakes I am all for trolling being legalized. Trolling is just another tool, no better or worse than casting, just a tool. I am not even sure how often I would use it on the bigger lakes, but it is a tool I would love to have in the box.
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Posts: 3482
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | Just a question here...
would motor trolling be any different than your local pontooner out on a nice slow cruise around the lake? No coubt I can understand wanting to keep the quiet serene environment, but if the pontooners can be out there, what is the real difference?
Also, with these new 4 strokes that many have gone to, your not going to hear the trolling boat going by. And...I really don't think everyone and their brother is going to start trolling just because they can. I am sure many out there are like me and cannot stand just sitting there waiting for the hit....and would rather be doing something active while in the boat.
I say legalize it, but limit the number of lines per person (to 2 lines max) with a maximum of 4 lines per boat. On smaller bodies of water, trolling multiple lines becomes a pain for turning, and too much to deal with...especially if you are by yourself.
Steve
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | So, to follow up and play Devil's Advocate, we need to make sure those who wish to use those small lakes for jet skis and skiing cannot do so either? No trolling strictly because one wishes for the preservation of the peaceful nature of things is summarily thrown out the window when a jet ski or speed boat or pontoon shows up and motors around.
One cannot argue that 'quiet' anglers have as more right to the water in equality to Speed Boaters and pontoons and runabouts or any other motorized craft then do potential trollers. It won't fly for obvious reasons. It could be argued that a back bay on Pelican is nice and quiet in the fall, too...
Perhaps a law should be passed to preserve smaller lakes ALL the time and for ALL users, and make them electric motor only. But then, would you drag a sucker along under electric motor power if trolling there was legal? Would those anchored up see THAT as invasive and shattering the peace of the moment?
Any new regulation that has a ghost of a chance of passing to allow us tolling up here has to be REALLY carefully thought out and consider the feelings and practical arguments of all water use groups. Including those who think 500 acre or smaller lakes should remain 'no trolling' just to keep that peace.
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Posts: 714
Location: Rhinelander, WI | I recently heard something that is a little bothersome regarding trolling with large spreads.
It’s about what sometimes happens when a small or average fish is caught on Lake St. Clair. With a large spread out many trollers are refusing to drop the boat out of gear, because they don’t want to end up untangling and resetting lines. Many guys on St. Clair are combating this by getting huge livewells, the boat is slowed enough to net the fish and then the net, with fish in it is lifted into the boat and placed into the livewell, the boat is then sped back up and the fish is unhooked in the livewell. Guys without the huge livewells are bringing the whole works into the boat and the fish is unhooked in the bottom of the boat.
Is that happening on Green Bay?
Would this be a problem on WI inland waters with our average low fish size, and the drive of Musky fishermen to be as efficient as possible?
Is this a good idea period with all the other issues Wisconsin muskys have to deal with?
I have to say right now I am leaning on electric only, mainly just to clean up the position fishing law. Plus it gives a little more opportunity without many of the problems outlined above.
I really just don’t have a good feel for what makes the most sense.
Nail A Pig!
Mike
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | That's a tactic used by St Clair Charters as I understand things, and not all of them by any means. I don't think I've seen or heard of that practice that anywhere else. That's not a reason to not allow trolling any more than proper netting and fish handling VS improper netting and fish handling should effect casting, in my very humble opinion. |
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Posts: 37
| I'm just a part-time NW. Wisc resident and I don't like trolling, but I think VMS makes a great point. On the lake that I am on a small Class B lake (230 acres), okay muskie population (.3 legal muskies per acre according to DNR), and there is motor trolling allowed. This summer, I sat on the porch with pencil and paper and did a survey of water use. I surveyed for about 6 beers (hour and a half). This is what my informal survey saw:
1 boat trolling
4 boats casting
11 pontoon boats cruising laps
2 jet skis (but they went round and round)
1 boat tubing
1 boat skiing
1 sailboat
In my opinion, motor trolling isn't what will ruin the serenity of the setting. If there are pontoon boats on the lake, they will be traveling the lake, just like a troller would.
If the argument is conservation related, there should be reasoning associated with it. If the argument is related to your serene experience, then every pontoon owner that goes for an cruise around the lake should be restricted as well.
There should be a scientific reason for not allowing trolling, otherwise allow it.
Thank you for allowing me to share my opinion.
Mike Wallace |
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Posts: 8788
| SWORRALL: "So, to follow up and play Devil's Advocate, we need to make sure those who wish to use those small lakes for jet skis and skiing cannot do so either? No trolling strictly because one wishes for the preservation of the peaceful nature of things is summarily thrown out the window when a jet ski or speed boat or pontoon shows up and motors around. "
Steve, I believe that's already a reality. Did you notice that some of the Presque Isle lakes have very limited hours on jet-ski usage? 11:00 - 4:00 I believe. There are similar restrictions on water skiers, wake restrictions, additional shoreline no wake zones as well.
As it stands, we as anglers already have a lot more rights than the general boating public does in when and where we are allowed to be on the lake.
And let's stir the pot a bit -- Why IS that? Are those regulations like the ones I've mentioned there for all the users of the lake, or are they really meant to satisfy the landowners/lake association members? Nobody complains much about the fishing boats, but put a jet ski out there and look out... And there are a lot more of them than us. Seems of the law was "fair" it would lean in the direction of the majority of users, but it does not. Seems to me the laws lean directly towards the revenue stream. |
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Posts: 1289
Location: WI | On smaller lakes most people cast anyway so I don't see the lake size as an issue. It's legal to troll in all of the lakes in my county and they're all smaller lakes and you barely ever see anyone doing it. It's a dumb, outdated law in my opinion. |
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Posts: 189
Location: Barrington, Il | Why do you think every lake will be inundated by trollers if this passes? There might be a few more people come up north just because you can troll but every lake will not be affected. You will still have your small quiet lakes if that is what you want. Even on a 200 acre lake will you hear an engine all the time? And so what if someone wants to blow the leaves off their lawn.
I have a cabin on a 200 acre lake up north that no one fishes in the fall. I would love to troll it. Be alot easier than running to town to pay $5 each for suckers and than trying to keep them alive. I get so tired of this holier than thou crap. |
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Posts: 32890
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Addict,
I was not speaking to them only running wide open on the lake. The regulations by Lake Associations you mention are placed to protect the fishing crowd from the zoom crowd in the morning and evening when looking at Skiing and jet skis, but there's nothing to stop folks from motoring around slowly and aimlessly enjoying the ride, as they most certainly do. I think some folks need the break from the jet skis in the early AM and evening just to keep from going postal. |
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Posts: 8788
| If you want to blow leaves off your lawn, why go up North? Stay home in the suburbs and you can go out on Saturday afternoon and blow your leaves around with a chorus of a few hundred other neighbors out doing the same thing. People go up North to get AWAY from that kind of nonsense and enjoy some peace and quiet in a place that we haven't managed to $^%& up yet with our noise, and our "screw you I want to do whatever I feel like doing without any consideration for anyone else" attitudes. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | exactly what Norm said ... N. Wisco is a place unlike the others and should stay as such. plenty of trolling options for musky fishermen other places ... keep it the way it is. |
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Posts: 4266
| One of the lakes that I fished this weekend is 900 acres, 100 feet deep, very steep banks and cottages (I should say mansions) are going up where ever they can fit.
Somehow the walleye population has been decimated by an abundance of Rainbow smelt, who eat all of the walleye eggs. The smallmouth are thriving, but the DNR refuses to stock any more walleyes, and they don't know how the smelt got in there 
Phase 2: The story comes out that the DNR has been stocking thousands and thousands of lake trout in the lake because..."There are plenty of walleye lakes in Wisconsin. Where else can you go and catch lake trout?" That is why the smelt were introduced and walleye stocking stopped.
When I posed the question if the DNR planned on allowing trolling for lake trout, the answer was, no. Then how do they think that people are going to be able to catch these free-roaming, open water feeding fish? And, wouldn't it also make sense to stock muskies in that lake? They already feed on the rainbows and browns that the DNR has been stocking for decades. Seems the DNR needs some education in angling techniques as it applies to certain species.
Sounds like a row-trollers paradise.
I think that I'm going to start a movement that people that are handicapped should be allowed to troll. They can use crossbows and shoot deer from cars, why not a special disabled permit that would allow trolling?
I'd rather see a one line trolling lake with a jet ski ban, than the other way around.
Beav |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | I think Worrall mentioned it in another post - "the only reason trolling is illegal (in WI) is because of tradition."
Same reason swallow rigs are legal (and much more commonly used than I used to think, until last fall), that WI is limited to a 9 day gun deer season, and that many local businesses think higher size limits would kill the tourism industry.
Straight up dumb.
Highest concentration of muskie lakes around, but no room for trollers.
Watch ski boats do laps on a 150 acre lake, but trolling would spoil the Northwoods.
Allow people to sit on shore with a bunch of gut-rigs out, but by all means don't let someone run their motor with a lure in the water.
Very simple - Raise the size limits and let people catch and release muskies however they choose.
JS  |
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Posts: 91
| My father has terrible rheumitoid arthritis and can only cast for about ten minutes at a time and I have also met sportsmen with only one arm who can't cast like the rest of us and think that trolling could be expanded to possibly larger lakes and or a limited season. Maybe a license like a handycap sticker could be put on the registration for these fishermen. I do agree there are places so pretty and peaceful and not large enough for multiple boats to be pulling planner boards around 60' apart. Early and late season months with less recreational traffic and larger bodies of water could serve well as possibilities for trollers. As far as sucker fishing goes keeping your line vertical is a little hard to maintain at times especially if your suckers are real lively or you are fishing unfamiliar water and come up on a reef or weed edge unexpectedely. Sometimes I fish vertical also with a bobber and if a Muskie is looking but not taking I will motor the boat away from the sucker 30 or 40 feet so the Muskie might not be as gun shy. If I am moving the boat while freespooling and not pulling the sucker is that considered trolling? |
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Posts: 3482
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | If this is something that comes up at the conservation hearings in april, I feel Steve Worral has it right...you need to keep all boaters in mind and create a situation that satisfies all of them. A trolling boat is no different than the pontoon on a cruise, or for that matter the jet skies racing around the lake. The fact is.. trolling alone is not going to hurt the fisheries so long as there is some sort of regulation in place for the number of lines. I'd be all for it, one line per person, or a max of 4 per boat..that way, planers can be used (although some lakes you would not be able to run them due to size alone) and tangled lines should be able to be kept to a minimum.
Regulate the lines, and with enough support, I feel this could pass without too much trouble.
Steve |
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Posts: 272
| "Guys without the huge livewells are bringing the whole works into the boat and the fish is unhooked in the bottom of the boat.
Is that happening on Green Bay?"
Roberts: not sure what you mean by this, or at least, what caused you to bring it up.
If any trolling changes are passed, I think it should definitely pay respect to the serenity of WI's smaller lakes, with lake size being a big factor in "if" and "where."
If nothing else, the "position fishing" rule with it's miles and miles of gray area needs to be cleared up. Lots of people dragging suckers around in N. WI, and most of them are doing it illegally. Yet, every corner gas station sells suckers....and very few people actually fish them totally legally. And every warden has his/her own take on it. Needs to be cleared up.
I just think it would really, really suck to fish some of my little gem lakes, most of which are under 200 acres, and see a six bird spread coming at me at dawn on an October morning. Yeah, it would be fun to do, but I think it would ruin alot of what makes Wisconsin....Wisconsin.
You could ban planer boards, but how long will it take people to get around that rule by using sub surface items like dipsey divers or something similar.
I say fix the silly position fishing rule so dragging a sucker around while casting with the trolling motor is legal, and allow trolling, limited to two lines, on lakes bigger than 750-1000 acres.
The numbers of lakes, scenery, and the small size of the secluded lakes is what makes N. WI what it is. I agree with the "what's the difference between a pontoon cruising and a troller" argument, but, do we need pontoons AND trollers on our little lakes?
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Posts: 5874
| VMS - 10/30/2007 8:13 PM
The fact is.. trolling alone is not going to hurt the fisheries so long as there is some sort of regulation in place for the number of lines.
Steve
Show me some kind, any kind, of scientific study that suggests that the number of lines determines whether a fishery is hurt or not. Where is all this one line per angler hoo haa coming from? I will support any and all oppositin to any rule change reducing the number of lines an angler may use in WI.
No trolling on the northern lakes is nothing more than tradition. I'd rather they keep it no trolling, than introduce the notion of one line per angler. Next thing you know, it will be one line per, statewide. |
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Posts: 714
Location: Rhinelander, WI | TTurn,
From: http://dnr.wi.gov/org/land/wildlife/HUNT/Disability.pdf
Permit to Fish or Troll with an Electric Motor
Class A permit holders automatically receive authorization to troll with an electric motor. Persons, missing a hand or an arm, or those have permanently lost significant function of hand or arm, may qualify for a trolling permit. Apply, you must complete and submit application form #3600-162 (Permit to Troll) to a DNR
Note: Permit holders must also possess a valid fishing license to make use of this permit. Persons in the boat who do not possess trolling permits are subject to normal trolling restrictions.
See: http://dnr.wi.gov/org/caer/cs/disabled.htm for more info.
Muskie-addict,
The reason I brought that up was because that is what they are doing on Lake St. Clair. It has evolved that way as the fish got bigger and bigger. Apparently guys don’t want to kill the spread by messing with a small fish. It’s less efficient.
Guys are heading to Green Bay to specifically target BIG muskies, I was wondering if that same thought process was going on there. I.E. “it’s just a little one, scoop it into the boat so we don’t waste anytime unhooking it properly”
I agree with Steve poor fish handling by a relatively few people shouldn’t be a reason to not pass a trolling law. BUT I GUARANTEE, if people are seeing this in Wisconsin it will come up as a reason to not legalize trolling on inland waters.
Shep,
I believe the line limit thing is more a political compromise than a biological thing. One of the reasons given for outlawing backtrolling was the large spread of lines. Northern WI traditional people have a big problem seeing the big wide spread of lines. By limiting lines the spread would naturally stay smaller.
Personaly as a compromise, I like the idea of limiting the number of lines per boat (ONLY WHEN TROLLING), that way it still allows the casting and trailing of a sucker up to a maximum. With a four line max, 3 people casting could still have one sucker out (cause if the sucker is out you would now be trolling) 2 people could have 2 suckers out and 1 guy could have 2 suckers out. Remember we still only have a 3 rods per person max.
I still don’t know where I stand but am throwing things out there that I think could PASS. Compromise has to happen if anything is going to change.
Nail A Pig!
Mike
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Posts: 3482
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | O.K shep...I'll play along here for a bit...
Let's say your out on your own...planer boards and as many lines as you'd like, whatever the number is for WS. You catch a really nice fish. Is one going to clear all the lines first? What kind of stress will the fish be under if it swims into one or more lines? What kind of stress does the fish receive if the boat is left in gear and it's basically being drug in?
Then...what if you happen to somehow get multiple fish at the same time (I know...not the greatest of possibility, but it can happen). Then what? Now there are multiple lines, multiple fish, and you are all alone. Do people really think they can handle that much equipment without issue?
I am playing devils advocate here a bit, but regardless if it is one line per person or 2 lines per person, that is plenty and 4 off a boat is plenty with extra people in it too...you gotta be able to move about the boat don't you? Will you catch more fish with 3 lines than 2 or even 4 lines as compared to 2? Maybe, but at what expense to the fish with all those extra lines out there? Can your local 150 acre lake handle a spread of 4 lines on planer-boards? Can anyone handle 4 lines on their own effectively? Not trying to argue, but just bring up points that I feel should carry some consideration.
Lastly, about trolling hurting a lake.... Take a look at MN lakes...trolling is allowed, but one line per angler. I would like to have 2 lines since I feel that is feasible to handle while trolling..but any more than that I feel would be too much for one person. Personal opinion there, but I will stand by my statement that trolling alone will not hurt the fishery so long as a limit to the number of lines takes place. I feel there is a certain safety aspect to this for the fisher as well...
Steve
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Posts: 663
| Maybe one of you guys can shed some light on this. I remember a number of years ago (10-15?) when backtrolling was allowed in N. Wisconsin for a time. If I remember correctly the idea was to allow walleye anglers the ability to use this technique. Of course musky fishermen ended up adopting the methods and were quite successful. Later the law was rescinded and back to the no-trolling regs we have today. What was the reason for cancelling the backtrolling regs? |
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Posts: 714
Location: Rhinelander, WI | Pete, I wrote this on the Sucker thread, it is purely my opinion based on talking with a number of different people over the years. Any more info would be awesome, if you ever talk to Rollie, I bet he would have some thoughts on this topic.
Backtrolling was eliminated for a few reasons.
1st The Wisconsin Fishing Traditionalist had a major problem with the success a number of guys where having once they figured out how to backtroll effectively. They thought two few people where catching and keeping, at the time, to large a percentage of the big fish. (Walleye and Musky)
2nd Many people had problems with the wide spread of lines guys where using while backtrolling once people started figuring out how to use planer boards and down riggers even on the many small N. WI waters.
3rd backtrolling effectively made the “Tradition” of trailing a sucker while casting illegal unless the boat was moving backwards. There for the “Traditionalists” who where not in favor of backtrolling in the first place had to resort to backtrolling to fish sucker the way they always had in the past. And they WERE NOT HAPPY from the very beginning.
Nail A Pig!
Mike
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