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Posts: 1060
Location: Palm Coast, FL | Looking for statistics on delayed mortality from catching muskies in warm water. There is an individual that has listed a guide service (Ebay) on Webster Lake for trolling at night throughout the month of July. Water temps are already in the mid 80's on the main lake in upper 80's to 90 in the shallow water. Any help would be much appreciated.
Edited by Vince Weirick 6/18/2007 7:47 AM
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Posts: 128
Location: ontario canada - Well Anderson Indiana now | Just more info on this guy, I asked him if he only guides at night and he told me he could accomodate for anytime of the day, obviously regardless of temps!! So like Mr. Weirick said, we need to get this guy some statistics and documents to show the dangers of fishing in such extreme water temps because he doens't believe it to be true. We also need to provide him the info in a not so "elitist" way. |
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| Someone already questioned his ethics for fishing muskies in such temps. They posted his response on Hulbert's board. He feels totally justified in what he's doing and according to him DNR biologists in the area as well as some other in the know folks say that these scorching water temps have no effect on the survival of muskies. |
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Posts: 8865
| I gotta trust the biologists over anyone else whether I like what they have to say or not... |
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Location: Munster, IN | Like Matt said, some good posts on the topic at Mike's site.
You also might want to contact John Bette (muskihntr) from Stealth Tackle.
He has gathered some of his own information on the subject too.
It has been a hot topic (no pun intended) on The Next Bite site also.
Check their archives.
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This seems to be an issue where you need to pick your biologists.
In MN, Rod Ramsell, Bob Strand and Jerry Younk will all warn about fishing in water that hits the 80 degree range, especially if it's like that for an extended period of time.
All living things get stressed out when put into "extreme" conditions, people included.
Hooking and landing fish adds to the stress they go through.
Everybody has to make thier own choices, I'll quit fishing except for early morning when the water temps are approaching 80 during the day.
JS
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Posts: 324
Location: Bloomington, Illinois | Just a question for Vince and others in Indiana/Illinois...Are you going to stop guiding/fishing until Fall? It sure is a short season which is a real bummer if you don't have the means to go North...How much will the water temps drop overnight?
I guess I'd like to see the research numbers...How do they gather data about warm water releases unless someone is catching and releasing in warm water?...What other factors are looked at(health of fish, proper handling and release)That said, I haven't fished for 2 weeks due to temps in the low 80s...I just looked at extended forecasts for the next 10 days...8 of those days are supposed to have 90 plus temps!!! and its not even July...Its just hard to think of not fishing again until September...I guess I'm just trying to find some wiggle room so I don't have to wait so long to get back on the water...Believe me, I don't want to do anything to jeopardize the already limited population in the lake I fish (lots are lost over the spillway) I guess i'll look at some of the other boards mentioned on this thread and in the meantime pray for some extended cooler weather 
matt |
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Posts: 3165
| Beg, Borrow, steal the article done by Rod Ramsell in ESOX ANGLER in I think 2005,,,the stress from a fish hooked in hot water and brought into the boat is equiv to someone running a 26 mile mile marathon in hot temps and has soon has they cross the finnish line exhausted someone takes their head and jams it underwater so they now cant breathe, |
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Posts: 1060
Location: Palm Coast, FL | muskyme...yes I am done guiding until the water temps cool back down. I just got off the phone with a guy that wants to go out...told him to give me a call in the middle of August to get an update.
happy hooker or anyone else...can you get me that article by Rod Ramsell? |
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Posts: 1060
Location: Palm Coast, FL | OK...I found the article and sent the guy an email on ebay. Does anyone know who he is? Does he have a website? |
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| Vince, not to stir up trouble..ok maybe a little..didn't your Muskies Inc chapter just have a tournament down there this past weekend? Or am I mistaken???? |
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| Thanks Vince, hopefully he will listen as Mr. Skarie stated Jerry Younk is a great biologist and will answer your questions if you e-mail him, although it make take a week or so due to the fact he is in the field this time of year, keep up the good fight these fish cant do it themselves and someone is always trying to put themselves before the fish due to economical or egotistical measures.
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Here you go boys...
http://www.thenextbite.com/site/article.cfm?owner=84DD6C36-3048-725...
TB |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | That's a great article by the way, but he doesn't go too far into delayed mortality with warm water (and hence low dissolved oxygen levels) fishing. But there is some priceless information about the mechanics of supporting fish both vertically and horizontally. It really makes me glad I bought the Big Kahuna!
Here's a link to a paper I found while participating in the thread on Mike Hulbert's site earlier today--it helps to explain some potential mechanisms for the delayed mortality that may be associated with warm water fishing.
http://afs.allenpress.com/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.157...
That's a real nice paper and really starts to point the finger in the direction of just why it's so bad to be fishing when the DO levels get down below that 1.5 mg/L mark...increased stress leads to increased susceptibility against pathogenic organisms, among other things. And there are several good comments posted on Mike's forum under the "New temps" thread, if anyone is interested.
TB |
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Posts: 1060
Location: Palm Coast, FL | bn,
Our club had a cash tournament June 2nd. Last weekend we had an outing (which I did not participate in). It was a worth while cause and the proceeds from raffles and donations went to help find the murderer/s of 2 club members, Terry and Darlene Anderson. You can find more about them on our club's website...just click on their picture on the front page.
Vince |
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Posts: 9
| I'm new to Musky fishing, that was very good information for me, thanks for posting.
Fortunately I haven't caught a fish yet, so when I do I'll have a shot a doing it right the first time!
Thanks. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Here's another very nice paper published in a Canadian journal, by Dr. Casselman--a giant in the world of musky research.
http://www.mnr.gov.on.ca/mnr/pubs/fishing/catch_and_release_review_...
It's free for the download and I highly recommend it to anyone interested in the effects of CPR on fish; or how "delayed mortality" actually occurs.
TB
Edited by tcbetka 6/19/2007 11:44 AM
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| Thanks TB, that is a great article that I will put up on our FRV MI Club web site and I encourage other clubs to do the same!
Steve |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Glad you liked it... It's definitely a thorough review of the literature (from what I can tell) with multiple references on many different topics. I know it saved me several hours of Google time.
TB |
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Posts: 2361
| As it looks like warm water temps impact survivability of every other warm water fish, it would seem very likely that musky are also impacted. Of course some will require being hit between the eyes with a sledgehammer's worth of proof to accept that, which is a logical extrapolation of pre-existing studies. Especially if it has a leisure time impact or economic impact they don't want. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | I agree with your point that other species are very likely affected, although it seems (from talking to some of my WiDNR musky biologist contacts) that muskies are more sensitive to the low DO levels. One biologist told me that Pike are far less susceptible to the effects of lower DO levels, and can handle 3-4 mg/L DO without difficulty. While he didn't know of any DO data specific to muskellunge, he implied that when the oxygen levels get too low the fish become inactive and don't even feed. Hearing that, I pushed him a bit on the issue--did he think that it was then safe to fish musky in warm water temps, if the fish that were metabolically threatened were *inactive* as sort of a defense mechanism? He wouldn't commit to that of course, lol.
The trouble with this debate is that there doesn't seem to be any ONE definitive answer on the matter. I am still researching the available references, but to this point have not run into anything specific in terms of muskellunge tolerance to DO levels and warm water--there are just too many variables. But suffice it to say that the fact that there are fish die-offs during the summer period is widely recognized. Injuries sustained during the spring spawning period predispose the fish to illness, and then when the water temps warm and pathogen levels increase over the summer...the weak succumb. Survival of the fittest is nature's plan, I suppose. But muskies aren't the only species to suffer this fate of course...
But my understanding of the mechanisms leading to the demise of these fish has grown by leaps & bounds in the last few days. Many of these processes are identical to those causing sickness and death in humans, if left untreated. And many of the bacteria causing disease in fish can also be found in human disease.
TB
Edited by tcbetka 6/22/2007 8:33 AM
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One thing we need to remeber when talking about warm waters is that we are adding stress to the catch ourselves.
Whether or not a fish can safely tolerate low dissolved oxygen levels isn't the only factor.
Catching a fish depletes the body of oxygen at a time when there is less oxygen available due to the warm water. It's a lot like one of us going up to the mountains and running, we aren't used to it, and it stresses our bodies out.
For anyone concerned about a healthy fishery, this is the time to go barbless, and not take any fish out of the water. Fish in the mornings and take the heat of the day off.
JS
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Location: Green Bay, WI | john skarie - 6/19/2007 10:30 PM
One thing we need to remeber when talking about warm waters is that we are adding stress to the catch ourselves.
Whether or not a fish can safely tolerate low dissolved oxygen levels isn't the only factor.
Catching a fish depletes the body of oxygen at a time when there is less oxygen available due to the warm water. It's a lot like one of us going up to the mountains and running, we aren't used to it, and it stresses our bodies out.
For anyone concerned about a healthy fishery, this is the time to go barbless, and not take any fish out of the water. Fish in the mornings and take the heat of the day off.
JS
John, I follow you...from a distance.
You say "whether or not a fish can tolerate low dissolved oxygen isn't the only factor" but then go on to in fact to make the point that it *is* the issue. If their body gets depleted of oxygen at a time when there is less oxygen available...where are they supposed to get more oxygen from? Dissolved oxygen. So really it is the main factor. What else has changed, compared to...say the fall when water temps are in the 50s?
From what I have read recently, pretty much everything bad that happens to these fish can be attributed to low DO levels in warm water. Less DO means increased stress hormone response, increased blood glucose, increased heart rate with a decreasing stroke volume = ischemia, lactic acidosis, increased cardiac arrhythmias and (tell them what they win if they survive all of that...) less tolerance to pathogenic organisms!
Obviously they are just as much at risk for angler-induced injury due to improper handling, gill injury, etc.; but that goes for any time of the year. But I do agree with you on one important point--barbless hooks. (It isn't that I disagreed with you on the above by the way; just that I am not quite sure what point you are trying to make.) But the point made about barbless hooks and the reference to only a 22% decrease in angler catch rate in that one study--that really isn't too bad, IMO. What about maybe leaving one barb per treble?
TB
Edited by tcbetka 6/19/2007 10:49 PM
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My point was the fish may be able to survive in warm water with low D/O levels on a day to day basis. We've all seen and caught fish in very shallow water when it's hot.
But when you add the stress of C&R, than that is where fish can be put in danger.
Some people think that because you can find muskies shallow in hot water that they won't have a problem after releasing them.
Being able to tolerate hot temps and low D/O levels is not the same as being able to recover in them after a stressful event.
JS |
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Posts: 3165
| Night fishing in hot weather???
some people think its safer???
or is it more harmfull??? at night wouldnt there be less oxygen because the sun isnt adding any photosyn to the water? |
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In regards to barbless hooks;
I've found that the only case in where my hooking/landing percentages go down much is with topwaters.
When fish get up on top, or do a lot of jumping then can come un-buttoned, but even then I can't be sure if the barbless hooks are that much less effective.
The key is a long rod that will absorb the shock of head-shakes, and constant, even pressure when fighting them.
I think a good hook-set is actually easier, the sharp, non-barbed hook penetrates very well.
Understandably, many are not comfortable going barbless, but after landing a few your confidence will go up, and with the ease of release, and also the ease of getting those hooks out of yourself (done that a couple of times), I think many of you would be sold on them.
JS |
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Hooker;
The waters ability to hold D/O is directly related to temperature.
Beyond that, I can't honestly say if night or day is better irregardless of temperature due to plant activity.
I think your best bet is to fish in the mornings if you've had a windy night. Wind will oxygenate water more than anything, as will rain.
Maybe someone else has a better handle on the effects of photosynthesis and D/O levels? Just how much a difference do plants make, and does it trump the ability of water to hold D/O better in lower temps?
JS |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Ah John...now I smell what you're cooking. I agree with you. The first reference I posted (the one about the Talapia) basically proves exactly what you are saying, in a certain way. They exposed the fish to DO levels of <1 mg/L for 24 hours and then injected 100 microliters of broth with Group B Strept. Mortality increased by 27% in the fish with only a small number of bacterial units (CFUs) while it increased by 80% (!!) with an higher amount of CFUs.
Although this isn't exactly in line with what you mentioned, it basically proves your point. There is a reference out there from 1980, where they actually studied angler-induced morbidity and mortality on muskellunge. But I haven't gotten my hands on it yet. I hope to have it today or tomorrow and will then have a look. But for the most part, I believe you are spot on target...
By the way--I don't think photosynthesis has as much to do with DO levels as does the water temperature. If the water is of a certain temperature, there's only a certain amount of oxygen solubility possible. I believe that you could bubble 100% oxygen through it all day long--once it's been saturated to it's oxygen carrying capacity, that's all it will hold. You'd have to have some way to supersaturate it to go higher than that. I do believe that aquatic plants would help *keep* the DO levels at the maximum carrying capacity for any given water temperature--or help to more quickly replenish DO levels when the water temp cools.
TB |
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Posts: 786
Location: Minnesota | At the end of the day....Buy a good net and leave the fish in the water during stressfull times. |
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Location: Green Bay, WI | Amen to that.
Nice Grunts on the website, by the way. I will be needing to talk to you in another month or so...
TB |
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