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| I have seen pricing go from $250 all the way up to $600 for a day with a guide. There are some very awesome guides out there, who are worth their weight in gold. They know spots, fish, and ways to catch them!
In reality, what are the biggest expenses for you? Is it more realistic to get more money if you're running a big brand new, 60 m.p.h. boat? Or, are you better off being a little more humble, and run a smaller boat with less frills? Does the size of the lake dictate what size boat you're using? How much fuel are you going through in a day?
I look at the pricing for guides, and I think a lot of people don't realize the expenses inherent with guiding. Having never been a guide, except when I owned Andy Myer's Lodge, and that was a different story, I keep looking at what the expenses are, and if I wasn't getting $300-400 per day, for 7 months, I'm not sure I could make ends meet every month!
Any insight fellas??
Donnie 
Edited by Donnie3737 5/4/2007 8:00 AM
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Location: Athens, Ohio | "I just won a million dollars in the state lottery, and I'm gonna guide for muskies until it's all gone!"
Honestly, I know several guides and it's amazing that they can stay ahead with the price of boats, gas, insurance, health insurance, ads and promotion.....
I'll take issue with one of your statement: "being a little more humble, and run a smaller boat with less frills". If you're guiding on small rivers and streams, yeah, maybe, but on bigger water or even mid-sized lakes, where are you going to put 3-4 people, your gear, their gear (sometimes, a truckload!), a couple depth finders, navigation equipment, first aid supplies, coolers for drinks and food (refer to the previous thread about what you carry in your rig!) in a small boat. I don't think - at least in most cases - it's a macho thing, it's a convenience for the customer to have room to turn around and cast. m |
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| Didn't mean for it sound like ALL guides have huge ego's. I have watched some very successful guides run smaller boats because it is more efficient. These same guides don't allow you to bring 47 things either. Good point! |
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What a guide should offer is what the customers want, or what there is a need for.
I wouldn't pay more cash for a day with a guide because he has a new Ranger with all the luxuries.
I could care less about how new or fancy the boat is.
If I need a guide, it's not for the boat ride but for the fishing.
There are going to be two types of clients, those that want the luxury on the water, and those that are more concerned about the fishing experience.
Not saying I want a small boat and inferior equipment, but there is a huge difference in what a fee should be to ride around in a 18 ft. aluminum boat and a 20ft. + Ranger etc.
There probably is a pretty good market out there for guides who can put you on fish without the overhead of a big new boat and all the best electronics etc.
JS |
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Posts: 66
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Good luck everyone this year......may you all release 50's this year!!!!!!
Edited by Dennis Radloff 5/4/2007 11:58 AM
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Guiding really isn't that much different than a lot of areas of self-employment.
Construction workers, concrete workers, golf course owners, farmers,
Yard service/landscapers. etc. etc.
They all have overhead and limited amount of time to make a living.
They all need to get insurance, maintain equipment/tools etc. etc.
No matter what you do, bottom line is you have to make ends meet, and hopefully like what you do.
As with any self-employed person, part of your success will depend on how smart you are with your investment of time and money in your business.
Maybe using a big expensive boat that sucks up a lot of gas will be the factor that doesn't allow you to pay the bills.
At the end of the day, the numbers have to add up to profit, or you have to change jobs or change your strategy at the current job.
JS
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Posts: 2894
Location: Yahara River Chain | Donnie3737 - 5/4/2007 7:59 AM
if I wasn't getting $300-400 per day, for 7 months, I'm not sure I could make ends meet every month!
Any insight fellas??
Donnie ; )
Maybe if you stayed out of Hooters, you could drop that to $200 - $300 a day.  |
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Posts: 66
| John hit the nail on a few things.....guiding is no different than any other self-employment / small business / seasonal occupation and it comes down to runnng and managing it like a business and not a hobby. I have learned a few tough lessons along the way by not making some "smart" decissions.
One thing I pay more attention to over the last couple of seasons with the bigger boat / motot is that I don't run wide open from spot to spot anymore.....I have learned where the "efficency" range is on my motor and run there most of the time...makes a big difference at the end of the month. |
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| Thanks Gerard for giving away my secret...LOL! |
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Posts: 66
| I made an edit to delete my response....I didn't mean to paint the impression that I was complaining about my job...I thought I made that clear....I love my job and will continue to enjoy it as long as I am able.
I do appreciate and respect that the individual e-mailed me in private and I have responded to him in private.
Good luck everyone.
Dennis |
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Posts: 8781
| Dennis, I personally thought your response was the most insightful post on this whole thread. Didn't sound like "complaining" to me, more like "This is what guiding is like"... I think that's something that the people who hire guides would benefit from understanding, and certainly something that those considering guiding would want to read. |
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Location: Yahara River Chain | Donnie3737 - 5/4/2007 11:48 AM
Thanks Gerard for giving away my secret...LOL!
Hardly a secret!!!!! At least in this neck of the woods. lol
Dennis, I have to agree with esoxaddict (I can't believe I really typed that), but is/was a great response.
Edited by muskie! nut 5/4/2007 12:22 PM
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Posts: 956
Location: Home of the 2016 World Series Champion Cubs | Just food for thought here... The right tool for the job. I do think some guides are at the over kill stage on the size of boat and motor. i understand the big waters would necesitate a bigger boat/motor but note that I didnt say biggest boat/motor. I dont think my fees to fish a smaller lake should mirror that of a big lake outing for a couple of reasons.
Also as a client, unless otherwise stated, I would also expect the guide to provide any/all equipment to be fished and I wouyld expect to use the SAME quality gear as the guide. I didnt appreciate it when fishing with a guide and he set me up with ABU 6500's (not bashing ABU's I own /use several) and then he reaches in to his rod locker and plucks one of several Calcutta te's.
Then there is also the guide whom on LOW had the same response to my question of what to fish and how......EVERY SPOT ON THE LAKE HE RECOMMENDED A BLACK BUCKTAIL. I understand the "Black buck tail principle" BUT give me a break here, wasnt born yesterday. Just offering some thoughts. Rest assured though I DO share opinions of any/all guides whom I've hired good bad or indifferent.
Not ripping the guide business here. many many great guides out there with some very exceptional ones as well. Some even here on M1st. I too like to heae the "guide chatter" on the sites as it is also very informative.
Karl |
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I wouldn't categorize telling it like it is as complaining.
Running your own business is tough, no matter what the profession. Doesn't mean you don't love what you do to highlight the work and sacrifice it takes to do that.
I do think that a lot of people getting into the guide business these days are putting to much money into equipment (boats, baits, custom rods,electronics), and are now finding out they can't pay for all that stuff they thought they had to have.
As you get successful you upgrade, hopefully without borrowing to much money.
That is how you will make it on your own.
JS |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | anybody without boat envie is lying to you ... just like electronics envy ... rod, reel envy ... as producers bring cooler stuff to the table those that invest in it and enjoy the "newness" are enjoying something we all would like to. don't they say the 2 happiest days of your life are the day you sell your boat and the day you buy the new one?
i envy the guys that are happy with their rides they've had forever ... in the meantime i'll sign up as another person with boat envy ... for me it's a skeeter 1880 wx with a 225 vmax ... #*^@, i want one of those things bad! ... will i get one, i don't know ... will there be people who say "hey, nice boat .... wish i had one" sure, is it why i do it ... yeah, cause right now it's exactly what i'd say if i saw a guy with one ...
so, what's your point? |
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| interesting post.
i wouldn't hire someone for the fancy clothes and boat. etc....
i fished with plenty of guys in the basic tuffy,lakelands, crestliners , fishers etc...many were and still are incredible fisherman.
look at the old river boat guides. not an expensive boat but their techniques and talents positioning the boat was the key.along with patience and undrstanding.
when i got in this business, i learned from some great ones. they said boat positon is real important. patience and reliable equipment.
my clients do fish with everything i have from equipment to spots to my effort. i believe they deserve it.
we all want to be in the best boat with the biggest motor but unfortunately it doesn't work that way at all. whats"in the package" is more important.
some have so many different backgrounds and lives if they have a quality boat to get it done and its reliable and has room for 1 or 2 clients than so be it.
my $0.02
hey sled the wx1880 is real close. with a 150 yamaha
dannyboy
[email protected] |
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Posts: 2089
| The boat means NOTHING if you don't know what to do with it. You too can have a 50K boat, all one has to do is be able to sign your name. Oh, and have the funds to write the check each month. Steve |
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Posts: 8781
| how can you have boat envy when you have a 2180 bay Ranger?
And Steve, you're right -- anybody with a lot of money can have a $50,000 boat. Don't even have to know how to use it... But to get enough money guiding to be able to afford that $50,000 boat to me says you must be a pretty d*mn good guide. If you're not, I can't imagine you'd have enough clients to make the payments.
Edited by esoxaddict 5/4/2007 3:01 PM
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | i remember seeing after a grueling 2-day smokin' hot (edit ... in the holy crap it's hot and the fish are nowhere but my arms are now pink vernacular) WMT on boom ... a 621 heading out on day two a full 4 hours early ... it's loaded with enough sponsor decals with matching monkey suits .... enough to make you think that sunday morning tv was in town ... not enough spunk and they gave up. i think the tourney was won by a couple of guys in an aluminum v-boat with a 25hp. johnson ...
but ... now dannyboy ... i'd hire you now cause i heard you had a yami! LOL
Edited by jonnysled 5/4/2007 3:01 PM
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| The perfect comparison was made earlier in the thread about it being a seasonal business. Most contractors by 'Industrial Quality' tools because they use them more than most people would. These tools cost more than the standard equipment we personally use. If I had to spend 200+ days on the water I would want a comfortable riding boat with a durable/dependable motors and equipment. They need/require 'Industrial' strength tools plus their clients are paying for a premium service and will feel like they are getting it with nicer equipment. Do I need a big Ranger for the few outings I go on, NO, I have what fits my requirements. But like most selfemployed/seasonal workers they have to be real savvy with money. I don't want to pay for someones inability to budget money and keep costs under control.
I'm not saying the equipment makes the guide but it can make a statement of what his expectations are for the amount of money you are paying. |
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| sled you got me smiling.........
good points fellas.
like i said whats in the package.
dannyboy
[email protected] |
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Posts: 814
| I may me going out on a whim here but....I think guides are WAY over priced! 400 dollars a day X 7 days a week=2,800.00 times 7 months 78,400 FOR A PART TIME JOB! I bet most people on this site don't make that in a year! And if they weren't making money at it guides wouldn't be poping up left and right. Now I am not knocking ANY guides! Do I fish with guides YOU BET, I am good friends with a few of them and would love to be in there shoes!! |
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Posts: 311
| I think guides should have newer equipment, they will get more repeat business with new stuff than old wore out stuff....
New equipment gives clients a lasting impression that will be talked about when friends ask them how their trip was....,
Clients should enjoy their day on the water in comfort and with the latest and greatest equipment.....IMHO.... |
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| It is tough to guide 7 months/year unless they are also guiding on the southern reservoirs (some do). But according to a post above, approx $75k/season sounds like alot of money. Factor in 15% FICA, 15 % self-employment tax, state income tax, insurance, GAS $$$$, most likely a boat payment and equipment used/abused by clients and it boils down to alot less money than it first appears to be. Also, being self-employed means no employer 401k, so they should put some away for later.
When I sign up for a guide date, it does seem like a lot of dough, but no one is forcing me to pay that money. I do it because I enjoy fishing and I figure it helps me along in this adverture.
BTW, I am not a guide, but I am self-employed and realize I sure don't get to spend everything I make-the tax man is hungry. Yes there are certain breaks to being self-employed, but there are no sick days, vacation days or things like that if you want to keep the money coming in.
Howard |
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Posts: 814
| Good point Howard but I also pay Federal,State,SS,tax and insurance! I also know that everyone who owns their own business doesn't claim every thing they make either.... they would be fools if they did, also how many people who have owned a good business went bankrupt or quit? not many. |
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Posts: 15
| One factor not brought up here is that most of the big time guides have deals with Ranger, etc. where they get a new boat every year and just have to sell it at the end of the year to get a new one the next year. A couple I know get one every two years as long as they sell. I am unsure how it works with the boat electronics makers (Lowrance, etc. ) - but I wouldn't doubt they get that stuff free too. Definately allows them to add to the bottom line at the end of the year.
John |
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| Well some people that own their business pay everyting they earn-I do because it is reported to the IRS and I get a 1099.
Being self-employed, we have to pay and extra 7.5 % (if you're employed, the employer pays that 7.5%). Many employers also cost share a portion of health insurance premiums and have group health ins so you don't get dinged with pre-existing conditions.
THere are benefits to being self-employed or many wouldn't do it, but it is not a panacea either. Having a seasonal gig makes it that much more of a challenge.
Yes, guides charge what seems like a lot of money, but $75k gross isn't as much as it appears when you figure in expenses. I am sure these guys love muskie fishing, but it is nothing like some of us taking a week off from work and going balls to the wall fishing. To make $75k, these guys must do this 200 days straight with no sick days (no pay), vacation (no pay), no shows (no pay except deposit), bad weather (possibly no pay), mechanical problems (no pay), significant injury (no pay plus medical expenses).
Does it pay to have a new Ranger every year with their incentives? I do not know what kind of incentive they get, or is it better to keep that boat and get it paid off and have less expense each month?
These guys run a business and charge what they think they are worth. Are they worth it? That is up to potential clients to decide.
Howard |
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Posts: 7038
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | One factor not brought up here is that most of the big time guides have deals with Ranger, etc. where they get a new boat every year and just have to sell it at the end of the year to get a new one the next year. A couple I know get one every two years as long as they sell. I am unsure how it works with the boat electronics makers (Lowrance, etc. ) - but I wouldn't doubt they get that stuff free too. Definately allows them to add to the bottom line at the end of the year.
*Getting a boat on a one year note is what you're thinking of. Trust me, it's still a loan, and like anything else in this world, in the end, nothing is free. It's better than a boat payment, but it's definitely not a "free boat". |
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Location: WI | Amen DannyBoy!
I would also have to add its a market driven price. If people didnt think they were getting their monies worth overall, the price would eventually reflect that. Fact is our sport has grown so much over the last 10 years, and in certain areas, their demand exceeds availability, for example the "Minnesota explosion/exploitation." I know some of these guys, and they generally can catch fish in a bathtub. So them being relatively new to the area wouldnt bother me. The same market also weeds out the hacks. If a guide doesnt produce what the client is looking for the client will go elsewhere next time.
And its all what you want to get out of your experience. Being a guide I have noticed the big tippers are almost always the guys who ask the most questions. For the most part they could care less about the fishing "that day." They are there to learn. What kind of price do you put on that knowledge?
Of course every situation is different, but that part is up to the guide to find out what the client expects, and then decide if they can deliver whats expected.
Word of mouth spreads faster than ever now with the internet. Back before the internet, reputations were built over years. Now its overnight.
All that being said, the guys I would pay TOP dollar would not be your "BIG Named Guides". They would be guides 95 % of people dont hear much about. No need for promotion. If they are booked solid, they dont have to look for clients.
I would rather have a guide with a "few thousand fish" to their credit. Rather than a "few thousand internet posts" to their credit. But thats just my personal preference.
The market will always dictate the price. And if need be, correct itself.
Have a safe and successful season!
Edited by Shane Mason 5/4/2007 8:21 PM
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| "I have seen pricing go from $250 all the way up to $600 for a day with a guide."
A believe a Neurosurgeon makes about $800.00 per day, so getting $600.00 a day to help someone catch a Musky is pretty impressive. People go to college for 2-4 years and do not make that kind of money. I say anyone that can pull that off must be near "Genius" in intellegence. More power to em'. |
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