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Posts: 399
Location: Burton, Ohio | Hey everyone. I know what has happened the last couple of days got out of hand. I agree with that 100%. It is a shame that on some baits there is an off limits to types of fish and styles of baits that can be made or posted. With no disclaimer attached. I am not stirring the pot.
I need some clarification about this thread: I know the thread states: "Basement Baits and Custom Lure Painting". Is it for true basement novices or for both business owners and personal bait builders?
There are some extremely talented builders that post on here. I just don't want it to get to the point of people are afraid to post certian lures on this thread. I have noticed that level of quality baits has risen. I don't want it to be where a person will not post his or her lure to share with us because they seem to be not worthy.
I am new to the bait building thing. I have been doing it for only 7 months. I really don't know the history of the baits other than I like to build them and share them with you guys.
I am in a between stage with the baits myself. It started as a fun hobby and is starting to cross over. We are lucky to have a forum that allows us to share our talent. I can't make up my mind If some of us are abusing it with self promotion including myself. I am not trying to make any trouble here. Just wanted to here some of the other peoples opions on or about the objective of this forum.
Take care
John |
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Posts: 87
| I agree because if if it is ur first atempt people can give u suggestions and such. That is what I did and even though I havent got around to finishing it i will |
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Posts: 680
Location: Muskoka Ontario,Canada | John, it's unfortunate that you never actually READ the thread that got everyone all riled up. If you did you would have known exactly where I was coming from as we've discussed it on the phone many times and you agreed with me on most of the points. You are one of the guys I defended as you have your own identity and every bait you make looks like a Tigger bait. I respect that.
You are trying so hard not to offend anyone but this is real life and people might not always agree with your point of view. That won't make me bend to go with the flow. It makes me stronger in knowing who I am.
All of my comments were directed at anonymous guests that were spouting off about a subject that they clearly know nothing about. The ones who logged in said their piece and I respect that they see things their way.
Why should it be acceptable to blatantly copy another persons style and profit from it. Build from it, sure, learn from it and do your own thing. I could have saved myself a lot of time and talent and just copied Hughes River when I came out but I didn't. I did MY thing. Excuse me if I'm wanting credit for that now that so many others have jumped on the band wagon. Get serious people! Before 2005 there was not ONE Snax lookalike out publicly on the market. Prove me wrong if you are so sure of yourselves. Now I have MY hard earned customers sending me photos of Novaks thinking they are mine. Gee...why would that bother a guy who created that style? I wonder? |
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| I'm staying out of it and changing my name to Switzerland, or whoever stayed out of all of the wars.
It reminds again of a famous quote from one of my mentors when I first got started in the fishing industry back in the '70's.
He told me..."Ther are more pimps and whores in the fishing business than there are on Bourbon Street." He was right then and it holds true today.
From what has been going on, to the more subtle ones that are for sale on e-bay every day. I guess it is OK to copy body styles and even buy lures from guys just to disect them so you can even make sure that the weighting is right.
I put a deck screw in the rear end of one of my 2nds, and threaded on a 3" tail figuring the smaller grub wouldn't kill the glide. 2 days later there is a picture of a 49"+ fish with that lure hanging out of her mouth, and I'm being called a copycat and receiving threatening e-mails.
By the next year there were about 6 manufacturers who all added smaller tails to their gliders, "so the action of the glider won't be affedcted." The only lures with tails on them that I built went right in my box.
It seems guys can copy bucktails by the thousands and it's all overlooked. But if a guy buys one of your gliders and then traces the body and copies it, and then cuts it in half to get the weighting right........is that different than a guy copying a bucktail. In some ways yes, in other ways no, because many guys can't paint or skimp on clearcoat.
I'm glad that I only do this for a hobby, and am even happier that I've been physically restricted from doing many. My box, on the other hand, is full of one of a kind lures and paintjobs.
Pimps and whores guys. They will always be around.
I've run into it in the walleye ranks and again in the muskie world. I'm just going to do my thing and make extra lures when I am able and I will make them the very best that I can. I think the only thing that I've done differently is use a cut-out on a French Curve for a fin template. Otherwise I've always done everything freehand.
I'm never going to carve anything. I think it is beautiful. I don't think it's needed to catch fish, and I'd probably suck at it.
I remember when this started out with more experienced guys helping out less experienced guys, but a few of the people that I helped stuck it in my back.
Pimps and whores.
Now I choose to sit in the dark and keep my mouth shut.
I've come up with some new things. Found some new products that I like, but I'm not saying a word.
Good luck to all of you who have to make a living at this.
Watch your backs, especially when you walk down Bourbon Street. |
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Posts: 680
Location: Muskoka Ontario,Canada | Very nicely said Beaver. Again I need to clarify the point to my entire argument which somehow keeps getting overlooked.
Sometimes there are subltle things that make a lure and its maker different. Sometimes though it's not subtle but an entire rethink of what a glide bait should look like. There is nothimg subtle about that first Sucker I put on the market or any of my baits that have followed. This is not about ego it's about being proud that I did MY thing and not ride anyone elses coat tails.
In 2005 Hughes River was the only real glide bait maker doing a "Sucker" pattern bait and everyone was gagga over it...until I put out mine. Simple truth, no eggageration needed. I put hour upon hour into making my baits completely different from all the others I had seen. And now some of you want me to not take credit for it? Not in this lifetime. I worked too hard to make my name on the creativity and extra effort I put into what I do.
Pimps and whores indeed. I'm STILL waiting to see photos of a pre 2005 glide bait that I apparently must have stolen my style from. C'mon...show me. I'm calling all your bluffs. |
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| Snax, come up for air. We know that you pioneered the artform of the natural glider and that anything that came after yours was a copy. Plain and simple, a blatant copy.
But we cannot do anything for you. And unfortunately you have no legal recourse except to call everyone who carves a glider a copycat.....that's it! No patent. No violation. Just a lack of class. Wait, there will be more. Don't you think that there are other wood-carvers out ther right now who are saying...."I can do that.", and they will. How can you or I stop them? We can't.
Now, with that said, guys who are die-hard muskie fishermen know that you were the first. What does that earn you? Respect. Pure and simple, respect. I know that you can't spend respect, and I know that it hurts to see people copy your work and mistake someone else's for yours, but what can you do about it? Nothing.
You can get pissed off, and challenge him and all others to a duel, and it will accomplish nothing.
This industry isn't regulated. It's impossible to get a patent. When I looked at doing this as a business, I laughed when the small business people said, "You do beautiful work. Your paint jobs are fantastic. It's obvious that you put a lot of time into these. Can you make 5,000 a year? Because if you can't, you won't make any money at it."
Don't know what else to tell you.
You got screwed. You made a better mousetrap, and some people thought that it was a good idea and copied it.
If you are looking for an answer, or for some way to make it right, it's not going to happen. There's nothing that can be done, because there are no laws to stop it from taking place.
Just another lesson that we can all learn from.
Pimps and whores....they are everywhere, and the have no consciences.
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Posts: 680
Location: Muskoka Ontario,Canada | Beaver, you said it all my man. At least you acknowledge that I have a right to be pissed. I don't think no one else should make glide baits, just that they don't make them happen to look so much like mine that my customers mistake them for mine. So many of you think this is about ego. It isn't. If you do something unique or worth a pat on the back, I'm one of those who will log in and say what a fantastic job you did. I don't want the whole pie my friends...just my little piece I earned through hard work and imagination.
I have personally contacted most of you and told you in a PM or an email as well how much I respect what you do. You earned that respect. I'll keep on making my baits MY way and let the ones who want to ride along do what they will... Without class or respect. Ultimately they know who they are as do I.
Edited by Musky Snax 3/22/2007 5:42 PM
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Posts: 37
Location: Mid Wales, UK | Snax, the biggest problem you have is that you are copying nature. We all know that an EXACT copy of a baitfish in every way would be an excellent lure. As techniques are refined and technologies move forward we will no doubt get closer to that goal. As far as I know you are right in that there was nothing like your lures before you came on the scene but inevitably people are going to be trying to copy nature all the time. I'd suggest to you that it is not necessarily people copying your style but they are in fact trying to copy nature which just so happens looks a lot like the lures you already have on the market. No doubt many have been inspired by your work (myself included) which is something you should be proud of anyway. |
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Posts: 680
Location: Muskoka Ontario,Canada | Thanks Luke. You actually clarified the only point I want to take any credit for at all...
"As far as I know you are right in that there was nothing like your lures before you came on the scene but inevitably people are going to be trying to copy nature all the time."
I want to be known for being the guy who happened to come up with that "style" of glide bait. Not crankbaits, rubber baits or anything else. Lifelike, very well painted carved out featured wooden glide baits. That's it. That's all. Is that really unreasonable? You guys must understand that having that notoriety is a lage part of why my baits have been in certain magazines while the copy cat versions haven't. Who wants to read about the guy who did something second? I know I don't. It's a very small thing, that notoriety but in this business it can mean everything to your success. |
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| Well I don't sell lures and I'm no expert in making them, but I've always tried to make them look like nature with the shape, my air brush skills are a different story all though I do Google a pic of the fish and try to copy nature as I've done since my first lure.
I have been tinkering with the idea of putting real fish skin on flat sided lures for a few years, but the color goes away when the scales fall off and you have to cure the skin or it will rot.
But I would love to see one of you guys do it, I haven't found a solution yet other than adding paint over the dried out skin but like I said my painting skills are horrible.
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Posts: 786
Location: Minnesota | Tigger,
I feel anyone who makes a bait with their own hands should post here. Plus, I doubt the guys who make BullDawgs, Suicks, or the owners or Rapala or Musky Mania, etc have the time to post here  Lets hope we have that problem someday.
James |
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Posts: 680
Location: Muskoka Ontario,Canada | Let's see some baits then shall we? Here's one I'm working on for a customer...
I think it's the first North American Carp I've done that I recall.
Edited by Musky Snax 3/22/2007 6:45 PM
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Posts: 9
| Snax I'll call your bluff. I was on here the other night and posted a comment about the gripe you have with Novak but it was pulled with the other out of hand stuff. I was trying to post a photo of 3 baits I have at my home. One is a sucker with carved mouth and gills, and while it doesn't look just like yours it does look very much like a sucker. One is a perch I never fished because it has special meaning to me. The other is a shad looking bait. They are all gliders and all done in thur-wire construction which is the way Tim learned how to make baits. The sucker dates to 1979 and the others are early 80's so they are old but not ancient. Tim will be the first to admit he was not the first to make a bait with carved out fish looking features. Anyone that thinks they have done something new as far as making a bait is fooling themselves. Even Tigger's baits as neat looking as they are is not a new idea. They've been putting foils and other metals on baits for a long time. It is some super looking stuff he has found thou and he makes an awesome looking bait. Jed from Bikini Baits offered to post the picture here for me but I have heard he has problems at times getting his emails and I guess it didn't get to him. He also makes a killer bait and I have caught alot of fish on his baits. No one's doubting the fact that you snax brought the super life like baits to the greater public's eye but you don't seem to be happy knowing that but want blood. Tim has every right to make and sell what he wants and was making baits and selling them locally long before you ever thought of it. Yes it is the real world and it's a dog eat dog world, its a fact you need to learn. You don't think Novak has people making baits that look like his, come on. Luke makes a good point and I agree with him completely. Snax as soon as I get off here I'm going to email you the photo of the 3 baits I speak of and hope you will put your money where your mouth is and post them on here. I then hope we can put this behind us and get back to enjoying this great site and all it has to offer. I for one love looking at all the very nice looking baits that are put on here.
Best regards to everyone.
John O'Neill |
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Posts: 680
Location: Muskoka Ontario,Canada | John, I thank you for your comments. You said two things that I'd like to address. Here's the first...
"No one's doubting the fact that you snax brought the super life like baits to the greater public's eye".
Ah...but that is my entire point John. The people who DO doubt that fact are the ONLY ones I directed my comments to. That "fact" as you yourself called it is the only thing I have wanted credit for. I didn't invent painting, carving etc, etc. I made it popular within the world of glide bait building and therefore INFLUENCED many of the glide baits to follow. You said it yourself.
The other things is that while I do respect Novaks talents, he never posted a single bait that looked like mine where all of us could have seen it or they all would have been talking about his baits back in 2005. The ones he SHOWED us looked absolutely nothing like the ones he suddenly decided to start posting...curiously after mine came out and got all that attention. There's no way around this fact John, sorry. He may have had the idea since birth but the influence he may have had on the market never happened. Too late, I guess ? I happened to beat him to it.
I'm waiting for the pics and of course I'll post them. If no one ever got to see them besides his buddies, that doesn't really count towards my whole point of me having influenced the realism trend in glide baits in the MUSKY realm. Bass guys have been doing it forever.
Heck I've posted my own influences a million times on these forums and given credit to guys like Jed over and over for helping me. That's the way I am. I didn't want credit where it WASN'T due.
Edited by Musky Snax 3/22/2007 7:18 PM
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Posts: 110
Location: WI | We all need to remember that sites like this were not around for all that long for us to post pictures of our lures. Snax, you are a great promoter of your lures, I know this is your occupation and you need to sell them. What I am trying to say is, others may not post lures here, or even have the internet to let them do so, while others may want to, but are not handy with a computer. Nobody knows how many lures are out there that look alike and we never will. The whole thing with novak and guest should be put behind you. You can rely on your customers and word of mouth for getting business. There are more and more people getting into lure building and having a lure that looks like another is something that I think we will see more and more of.
Edited by dzklrz 3/22/2007 7:30 PM
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Posts: 680
Location: Muskoka Ontario,Canada | I agree 100% with what you said. You were one of the people I contacted way back in the day and said what incredible baits you make. It's never been my contention that I invented realism, simply that I made it in vogue in the glide bait circles. That is all I've been saying all along yet from some of the reactions you'd think I was saying I invented fishing! |
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Posts: 9
| John O'neill here.
Snax again I'm sure Novak will give you full credit for getting the super realistic baits out to the many. Tim lives in a small town and while he sold his baits there he never got on the net until the last 4 years to sell his baits. Yes you beat him to the realistic baits. I do know he likes your baits. I sent the photo I hope you got it. |
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Posts: 680
Location: Muskoka Ontario,Canada | I got the photos and will post them. Give me a minute.
Edited by Musky Snax 3/22/2007 7:50 PM
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Posts: 680
Location: Muskoka Ontario,Canada | Here we go. Let me first say that if I had seen these baits publicly I would NEVER have even bothered to come up with the baits I do because that niche would have already been filled by Tim and very well I might add.
This is my exact point here folks. Baits like the ones I am about to post were simply not visible and incredible as they are, they didn't have the impact that they rightfully should have.
I've heard all about baits that would have, could have etc. These would most definitely been among the ones in my own tackle box had they been on the market to be seen. Very nicely done Tim and we do have a similar vision I see. I have always maintained that there were others who may have done this before me but that they just missed the boat so far as making a dent in the bait making world. If Tim would have been able to get these out there, I'd be the first to be impressed. Check these babies out!
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Posts: 137
| Well, I’m glad you clarified yourself Snax, because I actually have a very similar sucker glide bait that I made in 2003 and didn’t steal from anyone, lol. Of course, I know you came up with the idea on your own as well, so I guess that just shows that while several of us ended up at the same destination, that doesn’t mean that we all took the same flight to get there. I will say that you get credit for getting it out to such a large audience of muskie fishermen, though, and making it the bait to have. And I definitely don’t envy the work it obviously takes to supply these new muskie lure fans with their snax. Look, I mistakenly went a little ways down the same path when novak's baits were first posted on here, but I was quickly put into place by pretty much everyone on this site. And rightfully so, I should add.
The very first novak true life muskie and bluegill posted on here looked a bit like the lures that I posted earlier on this site, and I let myself get possessive of something that I truly didn't own. Meaning, I didn’t own the look of a bluegill or a muskie, just as you didn’t own the look of the other two novak baits of a walleye and a ciscoe posted in the same thread, even though you had made similar baits before. Luke was right on the money. We didn't invent the look of the fish we were imitating. We kind of stole that from nature. And I had no way of knowing how long Tim had been making those lures either, and shouldn’t have assumed that they were made after or in imitation of mine.
And I didn't invent the bluegill or muskie shaped lure design either, because I know that Salmo had made some really neat looking realistic jerkbaits that look like a little muskie or pike before I made my lures. And I have to admit, my bluegill lure was probably inspired by lures that several big bass chasers were making out west a while before that. I didn’t knowingly set out to imitate other bait maker’s work, but to be honest, it’s hard to rule out the influences that other baits may have had on you. Castaic made some very realistic carved wooden baits with killer paint jobs quite a while ago. And wasn’t the world record bass in Georgia caught on a big sucker patterned lure? Maybe not as realistic as the lures we make today, but still pretty impressive for the time. And if you were into making baits in the distant and early 2000 era, then you may remember a national lure making competition in which many very realistic muskie lures were made in almost every pattern imaginable. The tendency towards imitating nature is a natural progression for those of us that have the artistic backgrounds to do a good job of it. I personally started doing this with fly-tying, then bass lures, and, as was inevitable when I met the sport of muskie fishing, I started making realistic muskie lures. Let’s just enjoy each others work and let the muskie decide what they like best. The muskies sure don't care whether I throw one of my pretty home made lures, or whether I throw a stick with hooks in it. And, personally, I myself am a big fan of what the muskies are interested in.
Just don't anyone try to steal my gar pattern lure.....It's mine, I tell ya!
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Posts: 680
Location: Muskoka Ontario,Canada | I was going to come out with a naked Barbie glider but someone might then come out with the naked KEN and no one wants to see that!!! lol
And I'm glad I FINALLY clarified myself after all this! It only took me 300 posts to do it! LMAO
Go make baits everyone.
Edited by Musky Snax 3/22/2007 8:05 PM
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Posts: 137
| Oh, and GBay giant, just to show how similar ideas can show up with different people, I have thought about using scales on lures, and am now in the process of making a lure with individual scales on it. Weird huh. How much of a pain in the arse is it? Bout as much of a pain as putting individual feathers on birds. Is any fish gonna appreciate this? Probably not. |
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| Mike I want to thank you for posting them. I would have to say you improved on his old carved baits with yours and I disagree with you not making your life like baits if you had seen these first. A person can always add new life to something old and this site proves it with all the great baits posted here. I know Tim has so many different baits he's built it's unreal because he's creative and so are you and the people on here, It shows. As I told you in my email Tim's not out to hurt your business just trying to survive himself in this ever harder way to make a buck. Thanks again Snax for posting the photo and best of luck. Best regards to everyone. Goodnight
John O'Neill |
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Posts: 680
Location: Muskoka Ontario,Canada | No problem John and thanks for sharing those. As a fan of the whole genre those were really cool to see.
Hopefully we can put this to rest now. You all know what I was trying to say and it was meant to be said with more tact I admit. |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Gents,
I have been in the fishing/boating industry making a living of a sort for over 30 years. One piece of advice I'd offer:
Let your work speak for itself. Make a quality lure and don't be concerned when someone else tries to copy it. Use your brand to define the reputation for quality, and the public will by yours most of the time. |
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Posts: 137
| Here it is. THe one and only, never been duplicated. Gar bait.
Course, it don't work. New that about halfway in, but decided to keep going with it.
I've tried to post this before, but it never seemed to work. Probably won't now. How come I used to post pictures with ease on this site, but now I have so much trouble? Maybe it's because someone doesn't want the public to see a lure this life changing.....
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Posts: 94
Location: Perham, MN | Haha! love it Toad |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Now that.....
Is a custom lure! |
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| Haha Toad, certainly looks like a gar, just get it to work and your set. |
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Posts: 680
Location: Muskoka Ontario,Canada | Toad you ROCK!!! That thing is sweet! You should have gotten into making decoys. |
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