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Posts: 167
Location: Minnesota | Would somebody please be willing to enlighten me as to what is ROI in pre ROI depth raider and what is the difference in the depth raiders?
thanks
Dan |
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Posts: 256
Location: Janesville | There is know Differance. some before ROI did not have a rattle. Other then that they are the same. |
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Posts: 324
Location: Bloomington, Illinois | Look at this thread: http://muskie.outdoorsfirst.com/board/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=32... |
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Posts: 167
Location: Minnesota | Thanks for the info..
Dan |
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| Good morning Dan, I would like to answer your question on the depth raider. I am part owner of Roberts Outdoors. When we took over the company about 4 years ago we agreed with Bucher that we would not change anything with the baits unless he thought we needed to. Right now we are using his same molds, same material and same molder that he has had for over 15 years. We even continue to have the bulk of our product painted in
Pennslvania which cost us more because of the shipping. We did discontinue the non rattle series because they just were'nt selling as good as the rattles. I did let Rollies order the non rattling version for their store. We also went from 3/0 to 2/0 hook size because we were getting complants that the 3/0 were getting fouled up, we only made that move after talking to Joe first. The only real difference in our lures is the packaging. If you would like to contact me direct please email me at [email protected] |
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Posts: 2308
Location: SE, WI. | Mr. Tilky; Don't you find it interesting the slightest bit that not only 1 fisherman but many have noticed a decline in the catch ratio between the older models and the newer made raiders??? I for one fish about 4 to 5 evenings a week and have spent countless hours with the baits, and have boated hundreds of musky with raiders! But when I troll them, older and newer ones at the same time, the older ones seem to shine...HANDS DOWN!!! I am not saying I don't catch fish on the newer baits, but I definately have more success with the older baits. If you are to hold up the newer bait, and a older bait and shake the rattle, or wiggle the back end of the jointed baits, At least for me the sound of the older molded is more brisk, or louder than the new duller sound of the newer raiders. It seems like the plastic is a softer material. Some of the real early made baits were of a different, more brittel plastic, especially the chrome models. I believe this harder plastic shines for catch ratio over the newer soft plastic, But, who am I to doubt your word on the plastic material. All I know is the results of my catch ratio. Maybe you should look into a more harder plastic material as an option. Do you want fisherman to continue to be happy with your product? How about a little experimenting with a harder plastic? You need a field tester??? Oh, by the way. I had a depthraider start to pull apart at the joint. I sent it back and asked for a new bait. Your quality control people sent it back to me and said they could not detect the obvious!!! Is'nt the customer always right??? Whenever, I had a problem with a bait...PRE Roberts...They sent me a new one...No Problem!!! |
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| Thanks for your feedback. I will call Bucher & the molder today. I am going to foward your thread to them so they know what I am talking about. If we need to change the plastic we will. But I was told when we bought the company and contacted our vendors that nothing was suppose to change in regards to materials being used to make our baits. I know Joe would not let this happen. He is involved with all production of old & new lure quality. I'll keep you posted |
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Posts: 35
| Just got a hold of the molder, He states the following. Tilky, we have been using the same Eastman Chemical for the last 17 years that I have been associated with Joe Bucher. We did have a period about 12 years ago that we ran a different material. In this 2 year time period we produced around 8000 baits. This material is made by BASF, it made the bait look better and it was lighter. During the 2 year run of this material Bucher informed me that they were having abnormal breaking and chipping problems with this new material so we switched back to Eastman and have been running that material ever since.
I hope this clears things up. We(ROI) bought the company about 4 years ago. We are only following what Joe has put in place for us. If you would like to contact me direct email me at [email protected] |
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Posts: 324
Location: Bloomington, Illinois | Tilky,
I appreiciate you taking the time to answer these questions...they come up all the time...I also know several people who are convinced the older ones are better...Enough folks believe it to the extent that there is a secondary market dedicated to "Pre-Roberts" depthtaiders...Another thing that I have heard is that the paint colors and patterns are "better" on the old ones...One specific pattern being the firetiger...Anyway thanks for shedding some light on this issue. |
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Posts: 209
| We have 121 Dr's that we use (photo), another 57 that are in my collection, and most of them are Pre-ROI.
I can't begin to tell you how many different weights and rattle combinations there are.
The bottom line for us seems to be when trolling the same color and length of line the lightest ones (that also have the loudest rattle) catch the most fish. It's not even close...... 4 or 5 to 1.
Just my experience & opinion.
Jeff
Attachments
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 Depth raiders.jpg (77KB - 586 downloads)
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Posts: 35
| Before we bought the company Bucher had an agreement with a company called DMG, they were out of Chicago and they did bankrupt the company. They used who ever they could get the best deal for painting the lures. That is why you may see a difference on the firetiger pattern. They even dropped the clear coating process to save money. Since we took it over we are with Joe's original painters in Pennslyvania. So you will see a consistant paint job once again. There still are some of the DMG paint jobs still out there. Hope this clears that up. Once again if you guys see a problem get a hold of me direct. |
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Posts: 2427
Location: Ft. Wayne Indiana | I have used the Depth Raiders both before ROI and as well as after ROI has been involved. I have not noticed any difference in a "catch ratio" with my new ones vs. old ones. Actually my best producing Depth Raiders are from about 2 years ago, which ROI produced.
I think we all get this "confidence" thing in our heads. Just like the Hughes River....everybody want Pre-2001's....I have some from a year ago that ROCK.
There is nothing wrong with the new Depth Raiders, I love 'em and will continue to use them and catch fish on them. |
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Posts: 35
| Jeff, your a catching up to our factory inventory with all those lures. Let me do some checking on the rattles. As soon as Bucher calls me I'll post another explanation for you guys. Once again I have no knowlegde of us changing the weights & rattles. |
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| I have a "money" countdown I have been searching for a duplicate since 2001. I thought the same things everyone mentioned above.
"Money" finally just died and I decided to cut in half along with a new one to see the difference. Nothing I could see......
I Have the same beliefs as Trollindad. His are all when Bucher had the line and even he has quite a few differences between them. They are supposed to be able to replicate baits exactly with plastic, but I think there are still some differences. It's way more consistant than wood, but still some minor differences.
I recommend just keep searching for the "Money" one. When you get some teeth marks and some slime on one you will have what you have been looking for.
Jason |
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Posts: 324
Location: Bloomington, Illinois | Jeff,
Wow...thats quite a collection...i wondered if you would weigh in on this...Sounds like in the past there may have been quite a few variations in the manufacturing process/materials that lead to some runs of baits being better than others...Could be with time the process has become more consistent doing away with these variations...It would be interesting if Roberts could analyze one of your top producers to see how it differs from the standard bait of today...My guess is it would be awfully hard to give one of those baits up  ........I think the size of your collection along with your hours on the water and the success you have had trolling DRs, that there must be something to the "difference discussion"...After hearing what Tilky has reorted, I would seem that the differences may be due to unintended production run variations...Maybe even changes in manufacturing line/supervisory personnel, mold variations, etc....Very intersting stuff...Good luck to you in the upcoming season...Take care...
matt
Edited by muskyme 2/13/2007 10:17 AM
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Posts: 2427
Location: Ft. Wayne Indiana | Every bait is going to be different in the slightest ways....
I love throwing dawgs, and I have some that work MONEY, not that the other suck, but I have some that really flutter around when I rip them....does that mean there is something wrong....No, it just means that I have one that is different. The others still work.
I have a lot of wooden gliders. Some are MONEY and others work. Again, that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with them.
Every bait out there that is made has some degree of difference to them. |
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Posts: 2308
Location: SE, WI. | <p>Mr. Tilky; Thank you for the research on the older model raiders. I was glad to hear that there was a different plastic used at one point. That will bring some closer to the people who seem to think we've lost it as far as sound and catch ratio. Obviously Mr. Trollindad and myself have very similar if not exact findings with our catch ratio. I've fished bass tourneys for years and used alot of rattle traps...Some definately shined over others. Sound is Huge when it comes to triggering strikes. Let me pose another Question to you...Mr Tilky, If enough Musky first members were interested in purchasing a lot of depthraiders in the BASF plastic...Could you run a batch? I have a feeling alot of guys MIGHT step up. Thank's for your findings!</p> |
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Posts: 35
| Let me see how much material we would have to buy to run a batch of the basf, I'll get back to you |
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Posts: 35
| Guys just wanted to let you know that Roberts Outdoors is coming out with the BIG FOOT series of raiders. We will introduce this spring a 12 inch Depth Raider & 12 inch Shallow Raider. |
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Posts: 2378
| tilky - 2/14/2007 8:26 AM
Guys just wanted to let you know that Roberts Outdoors is coming out with the BIG FOOT series of raiders. We will introduce this spring a 12 inch Depth Raider & 12 inch Shallow Raider.
Awesome! |
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Posts: 3242
Location: Racine, Wi | Dude, that is sweet!!!!
Also, thanks for the insight Tilky. It's good to see people that still stand behind their products. Keep those puppies coming. Apparently JD and Trollindad are taking all the inventory. |
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Posts: 35
| JD, just got word from our molder making a batch of the BASF. Not good. He told me minium of 500 lures for him to buy the material. But he said he may have some bodies in the back whse and he will ship them to me. If I get them I will let you know. On the ratlles in our baits he told me that he has not changed them. I'm sorry I don't have any idea why they would sound different. Good luck fishing. |
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| Lets take my time travel machine, set it for 1997 and lets make some some "pre ROI" BigFoots.
that is how ridiculous this thread it..
people collect lures...fact of life..one of the biggest/most popular criteria for lure collecting is 1. age of lure 2. is it from the original batch/run, the old way..
this is more a confidence and lure collecting post..not "how good are the new ones vs the old ones".
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Posts: 551
Location: Columbus, Georgia | If 41 guys are willing to buy a dozen lures each ... it's a done deal.
OR
82 guys ordering one-half (6) dozen lures each.
I'm good for one dozen (12) of a new batch of BASF-based Depth Raiders.
Let's jump on the bandwagon guys! Who can't use a half-dozen Depth Raiders???
Craig
P.S. My own preferred pattern of DR for home waters are the Miller Perch.
Edited by cjrich 2/15/2007 10:18 AM
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Posts: 284
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There is absolutely a difference in the sound, feel, and how the fish react toward old DRs compared to the new ones.
Those that say there isn't a difference have not put in the time on the water researching this.
I know trollindad has ... probably the most detailed guy I know, not to mention one of the best trollers I have ever seen.
I know that he and his kids have spent countless hours on the water with both old and new DRs in the water. He tried to keep everything even to give both baits a fair shake.
His catch ratios don't lie. There is a difference, and it's not a slight difference.
I love Bucher products ... this is not bashing ROI or anything like that ... it is just a simply fact. Something has changed. No doubt in my mind. |
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Posts: 2308
Location: SE, WI. | Atboy Craig. Maybe you and I should just buy the whole lot and split them ourselves. Put me down for 20.BASF, harder plastic. Dunlap, if people want to not believe us, thats ok. More success for us....JD |
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Posts: 167
Location: Minnesota | I would be in on half dozen or so depth raiders since it sounds like this BASF stuff is the way to go.
Dan
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Posts: 209
| 150+ is not enough
If they do this (I doubt they will - it would open up a whole can of worms....) I would buy 18
6 Firetiger & 6 Shimmy Shad
& how about the late 90's R & H color SUNSET (Orange tiger)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I would need 6 of those
Edited by Trollindad 2/15/2007 8:59 PM
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Posts: 324
Location: Bloomington, Illinois | I too would buy a dozen...straight body...Firetiger and shimmerin' shad sounds good to me also...
matt |
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Posts: 121
| When will the Bigfoot series of Raiders be available???? |
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