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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | As my first season of Musky fishing (mostly fishing, not much catching) is drawing to a close I'm reflecting back on The Plan and the things I learned. During The Plan's early development I had hoped it would entail becoming a well rounded fisherman. I had hopes that I would become adept at working the many types of baits and would put fish in the boat when I had the opportunity.
Given my golf background I assumed I would be able to master the techniques needed to work baits like Suicks, Weagles, Gliders, Creatures, etc. I envisioned myself as a touch fisherman. I assumed I would easily develop skills to coax these fish to bite. Turns out I was wrong.
Instead,
I found my first season could just as easily be called the summer of the bucktail or the spinnerbait. Somehow in my limited time on the water, I ended up throwing baits that required speed, power, and God forbid, endurance. I tried ripping baits like Grandmas and Jakes, and lacked the endurance to do this for extended periods. After watching some of the people I've fished with, guys I consider experts, employ these baits, I include them in the power bait or sledgehammer category.
Now I know the stock answer from most of you guys will be that you let conditions dictate what bait to throw. I know being in the right spot is the most important thing. The last night of the P.I. outing I had a long (very long) inebriated discussion with Norm and Sled about being a touch fisherman and learning to master "The Light Touch" baits. Is it possible to become so adept at working these types of baits that you can have a distinct advantage?
So think of your fishing style. Are you a Sledgehammer or a Light Touch?
Next year I focus on the Light Touch. I'm hoping it drives the ladies nuts, until they eventually explode.
Kevin
Sometimes the Plan wouldn't listen. |
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Posts: 32930
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I am definitely a 'light touch' guy, even when working a glider. Speed doesn't equal brute force in many presentations, even a Wabull can be worked with finesse at high speed without 'powering' the lure.
I do sledgehammer now and again when conditions dictate, but as I get older I search more for less physical presentations that work. Sometimes, all that works is yanking a huge crankbait along, or winching a huge bucktail along.
Get your fanny to the Hideout next year early. I bet I can talk Norm and Sled into a couple evenings on the water, whereby you will be surrounded by anglers that can be described in many ways as 'light'.......
And you ARE going to Presque Isle next year. If only we could entice Sponger to attend.  |
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| being adept and well rounded at both the sledgehammer and light touch will help you put more fish in the boat...sometimes they want the sledgehammer approach..sometimes the light touch gets them going....learn all the techniques you can...ripping 10" jakes to slowly working a suick back thru some cabbage...the more well rounded you can be the better...don't only fish shallow, don't only fish deep, don't only fish weeds and don't only fish rocks...learn to fish all the bait styles you can and all the depths and structure out there will make next year better for you in the catching dept...
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Posts: 8834
| Kevin
The endurance factor is really somewhat of a myth in my opinion. Obviously, the better conditioned you are the better off you will be in all aspects of life, but for those of us who make their living seated firmly on our backsides, being in top physical condition is not easily attainable...
My first season I felt really out of shape -- I have to get used to doing this -- my hands hurt, my wrists hurt, my shoulders hurt.
Over the next few years there were some significant steps that helped my endurance a TON.
1. I bought longer rods
2. I started holding the foregrip instead of palming the reel
3. I bought some left handed reels and learned to fish "backwards"
I still haven't learned to cast over my other shoulder, so I wind up switching hands on the cast, but those three things made the difference between "wiped out at 2:00" and still casting after 12 hours.
But perhaps more significant than that were the subtle changes in the way I cast and work lures. That didn't really come into play until this season. I was working too hard at it. I was tense, I was overusing muscles and joints instead of letting the equipment do the work...
I know this is getting kind of Zen, but there's a fluidity, there's a sense of being at one with the rod the reel and the bait, LESS IS MORE -- I'm working my baits better now and using half the energy. If you've ever taken martial arts there is a lot of talk about balance, center of gravity, and using your entire body.
And that's what changed for me, all that force I was trying to generate with my hands and my arms gradually evolved into more of a whole body approach. It wasn't a conscious thing, just thousands of hours of casting and your body figures out waays to make it easier on itself, more efficient, and less work.
I was winging my baits hard and casting them half as far. I was ripping, jerking, yanking, etc. my baits through the water, and not paying attention to the guys I was fishing with -- how little they were actually exerting themselves compared to me.
I'm sure you build some endurance after 100,000 casts, but I believe it's more the smoothness and the rhythm you develop over time as you learn (unconsciously) to use your whole body in an efficient manner and not use the muscles that you don't need.
Now, let's talk about finesse...
The light touch...
Yes, there is such a thing, and it has its place. I don't know of any better way so say it but this:
You have to develop your own way of working a lure, based on what you are making it do in the water. Like a Suick for example... There's no ONE way. What you have to do is make it your own -- fish with it enough and you will. I like to think I am versatile enough to be both the hammer and the light touch. But what I've found is that being the hammer doesn't take as much force as I once thought it did.
Ease up!
The efficiency will develop over time, your style will develop over time. Concentrate on making whatever lure you are fishing come to life in the water. If you are like me, I bet you will discover that you are working too hard, and all you're doing is making yourself tired, and your efferts aren't translating to any additional action from the lures you are throwing.
Now, as for skills in making the fish bite? Kevin... I had probably 30 fishless days this year. I fished with a ton of people, most of whom I would consider light years ahead of me in experience. I was not outfished. Sometimes no matter who you are or how good you are the fish just aren't moving.
Someone gave me this advice a while back, and I shunned it at first. But it turns out he was right...
JUST FISH
Take those days where nothing is happening, and clip on a lure you haven't used very much. See what you can do with it. Pay attention to how little effort it really takes to work that lure. Watch how little effort your boat partners are putting into their presentations with the same lure.
Take gliders -- I used to work them like this: RIPRIPRIPRIPRIPRIPRIPRIP!!!!! Warp speed, man -- zig zag back to the boat a bazillion MPH. Over time, and from watching others I realized something...
That presentation may work best in warm water, when the fish are active. But of those are the conditions you are facing? For God's sake why would you throw a glider in the first place?
Now of the waters cold and everything is moving really slow? Ok then... tap tap *pause....* tap tap tap *PAUSE....*
Watch Steve Worrall work a Wabull and you will never fish gliders the same!
Finesse IS a really important thing.
So is realizing that sometimes the best approach is to tie on a bucktail, and just simply chuck and wind.
And some days? Firing off as many casts as you can as fast as you can (guilty) isn't going to get you any more fish than firing off accurate casts at the right piece of structure.
1 cast ON the spot trumps 10 casts AROUND the spot.
And the last piece of advice I have for today:
Have fun first. Its why you are there. And if the fish don't cooperate, so what? Sure if would be nice to have caught fish that day, but that's really a small part of the whole deal, isn't it?
Edited by esoxaddict 11/7/2006 10:08 AM
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | in the years i've fished i've learned mostly that i have become but need to become even more tuned to the spot and the timing ... if you can coordinate being in the right spot at the right time it doesn't matter as much about what bait is in the water .... the best advice i wouldn't allow myself to take was from Howie .... find a spot on a deep break and just stay there all day and wait for the very small windows that exist in these conditions.
Edited by jonnysled 11/7/2006 10:13 AM
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | Still shooting that one at me aren't you, Sled? I thought I won you over to what I was saying at least a little bit while you, Norm, Landy's young squire, and I were freezing our $sses off drinking beer in the Skyview parking lot at 3:00 am.
We need to play golf. Maybe if I make a Titleist dance with a knock down wedge shot, you'll see what I mean. Like we talked about, I had to forget the power game in golf because I couldn't keep up with the youth of today. But put me on a smaller tight golf course with elevated greens that takes a little finesse, and I can still compete.
Though maybe not as well as I used to, as I spent this year fishing, mostly unsuccessfully.
I have to believe that some fishermen are going to have an edge due to better touch.
Kevin
There's a year two in the Plan. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | just a suggestion, but get one rod ... a good reel and spend your money with great guides and see their game. up until about 3 years ago i fished a feeding area pattern throughout the year and had some good success but in doing that i limited myself on location. my bait presentations were gliders, twitch baits, bucktails and topwater and spent 80% of my time fishing the structure i could "see" and relate to visually. again, i had success and felt complete.
about 3 years ago i went to eagle and showed up with a rod, a reel and no baits and just did what cal told me to do ... grandmas, raiders and bulldawgs off the structure further than my comfort zone. later in the same year i spent some boat time with johannes, nelson, jonesi and cochran .... fished the abyss and threw at stuff i couldn't see but learned to "visualize". the game changed for me.
this year i lined up with about 15 boats in a row with nelson and jonesi at the moon-set and saw something i still can't believe myself about timing. always understood the pre-frontal thing ... but now "change" and "feeding window" became so real for me
the learning is too much to type on a post, but bottom line thinking supports .... feeding windows and fish location (big vs. smaller ... i mean typical here and not absolute). i supplemented this by spending a lot of time at Guide's Choice watching them feed muskies and really understanding that a big musky will lay there with a great meal at it's disposal sometimes ... and just choose for whatever reason not to eat
as i started to put the original learning of the obvious fishing areas combined with the open water understanding i started to have confidence in picking lakes apart to at least be in a position against the old adage odds of 80% of the fish live in 20% of the water and eat 10% of the time ... and at least to me that is the game and not necessarily what they eat. of course this too isn't absolute because in the visualization you should consider the position of a bait selection relative to the third dimension and where the fish is "looking, listening" etc...
the test was entering the leagues and the WMT events and understanding the teams to beat. i felt i was doing well if i was working a spot and either Norm or Steve would come in and have to back off or in WMT's if Lijeski or Schweik did the same. if i was where they wanted to be i must be learning something.
the toughest thing to do is to stay the course during tough conditions especially if somebody in the boat looses confidence and i think it forces most to leave fish to find a visually appealing place to cast .... and that's why it's so hard to take the advice that goes agains the "typical" thinking. Howie knew the bite was soft and the windows were tight ... why work you ass off casting when all you've got to do is wait. |
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Posts: 1245
Location: Madtown, WI | I agree with Bnelson on this one. I will take someone that is good at BOTH anyday. He and I are of the same philosophy (I guess because we fish together a lot) but fishing with many different people you learn that being able to do BOTH well will put many more fish in the boat for you.
The key is knowing when to do what.....when given a chance...you are much better off catching fish with a sledgehammer then light touch baits....burning a bucktail will get you more hook ups then a slow working jerkbait....when the conditions are right.
I suggest fishing with as many different types of fisherman and you will learn to apply both.
Cory
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Location: Athens, Ohio | I've PM'd you with my thoughts.
Steve, as one of your southern-most members, I'd usually jump at an opportunity to bring Sponge up for the outing. I'm just trying to imagine what 16 hours in the car with him and Mauser would be like! m |
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Posts: 4266
| I'm a light touch, especially for gliders, but a mega-sledgehammer on the hookset.
Your feet better be firmly planted when I set the hook.
Beav |
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Posts: 32930
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Beav used to move the boat on a hookset. Alot. |
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Posts: 199
Location: Sandusky, OH | This was my first year hunting muskies as well, and I have had enough action to be problematic. I saw and landed enough fish that I can't throw up my hands in frustration and take up golf (OH THE HUMANITY!!!), but not enough to kid myself into thinking I'm even close to having it figured out. Even more problematic, the list of baits I want to try keeps increasing (I tried telling the wife that its still cheaper than golf, but no dice). And that leads me to the question at hand: Sledgehammer vs Light Touch.
My most productive baits have been a Musky Magic Slidin' Shad (Light Touch) and a 9" Schutt's Sledge (obvious). I find myself rotating between the two baits, and I'm not sure if its because I just need the break from the vigorous jerkbait workout. I fish the Huron-Erie coridor (St Clair R, LSC, and Det R), and I'm not conviced that it takes anything special to catch some fish in these high density populations. I think that next season I'm going to conscentrate on gliders and jerkbaits again, with the focus being on learning the best times and situations for each. Then I can add bucktails and topwaters into the mix in subsequent years.
In retropect, since I caught all my fish on the Slidin' Shad, I guess I'm a finesse guy.
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Posts: 2361
| "whereby you will be surrounded by anglers that can be described in many ways as 'light'......."
A scary quote by Sworrall...
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Posts: 507
| Keyword, 'Many'. "all' would be REALLY scary.... |
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Posts: 663
| Sled just gave you some of the best advice you can find. Guys spend years struggling and sometimes never come to the conclusions and observations that he just shared. I'm going to copy that post just to remind myself from time to time. Great job Jon. |
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | Pete,
That is excellent advice from Sled. He, Norm, and I had that exact discussion in P.I. When I started putting my Plan together last fall, never did it occur to me that I would fish or have offers to fish with guys possessing the skills of Michel, Koepp, Winther, Golden, Solberg, Sorenson, and the guides at Eagle, to name a few. Obviously, you could be the most skilled tackle handler in the world, and if you don't fish where the fish are and know their behavior, you just aren't going to catch many fish.
Boatless and Boatskillless (how's that for a word?) wonder that I am, I've done my best to absorb those types of things when I've had my shots, and will continue to do so.
My original post, however, was asking the many highly skilled fisherpeople on this board if they consider themselves a "Sledgehammer" or a "Light Touch". I guess I had hoped to become more proficient at the light touch than I did this year. I know the stock answer is determine what they want that day and give it to them. Yet if I think about what Sled explained, my question comes down to; if you're on that spot, the window is wide open, and the muskies are looking through it, given your choice, how do you get them to come through? I know it's easy to say "any way I can", but I have to believe that for many guys, there's a different level of satisfaction associated with getting a fish to eat a certain kind of bait.
Are you a Sledgehammer or a Light Touch? Steve and Beaver said they favored the light touch, and from what I know of their reputations, they are masters of the Light Touch. Maybe the weird way I look at things makes it impossible for most guys to understand what I'm saying.
From talking to Steve, reading his posts, and seeing the questions that get asked of him on the board, (see Jigging ? for sworrall), I'm pretty sure I have him pegged as a guy that takes great satisfaction from knowing he coaxed a fish to bite using his hands and touch. With my golf background, I thought that would be easier for me than it obviously turned out to be.
Of course I have yet to land a fish casting any type of bait, LOL, but I cannot recall having even one follow this year on a bait that did not have a blade or prop of some kind as part of its makeup.
That has to speak to my lack of skills at this point in my addiction. I want to hone those Light Touch skills. I think it please me greatly to coax a big fat girl to eat.
Kevin
I'll have a Sledgehammer Light. |
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Posts: 8834
| Kevin
You are giving yourself too little credit, or perhaps giving others too much, I'm not sure...
Yes, you have to work the bait. You have to choose the bait that's going to get in the fishes face, which requires knowing what, where, and how deep you are fishing.
I get the feeling you think your perceived lack of presentation skills are costing you fish.
If it was someone else standing in that same spot throwing that same bait as you during all those times you did not catch fish, the results would likely have been exactly the same.
Triggering them on the 8? That's a different deal all together -- some guys are really good at that. Those (like me) who are not ARE losing fish because of it. But general presentation, finesse, soft touch or whatever you want to call it? It's not to be ignored, but it's not the magic bullet either.
Sometimes they're gonna eat anything that goes by no matter what it does or what color it is.
Other times they're not going to eat anything at all.
I get more satisfaction from catching a fish that I feel I personally "triggered", but my favorite lures are bucktails and spinnerbaits.
Cast
Reel
Fish eat
Set hook
Maybe fast maybe slow, maybe bulge them a little, but it's all cast reel repeat. And it works. And the fact that that same lure in the hands of anyone else on that spot at that time would have caught that fish? Doesn't bother me one bit.
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Posts: 3242
Location: Racine, Wi | So one other thing that you can throw into the equation Kev, is you can use the "light touch" with a "sledgehammer" type bait, or vice versa. For example, let's say the fish right now are right on the weed edges but you have to get down into the cover. Well, at this point in time, I know I could get them to eat a jig or some meat, however, I just feel like working a crankbait and ripping it in. From my perspective, I just went to the sledgehammer side to start. Now, I know from the past few days, I have to make contact with the cover, but keep a nice clean bait, while still making it erratic. (I think I've just gone and taken a simple approach that I think many use, and made it sound complex. Man, amazing what words can do) Anywho, back to my point. Now I have my 7" straight bodied slammer deep diver (nice and bouyant) rigged up. I cast, crank down til I feel the weeds with my bait (the start of the light touch). Back off for a second, reel, feel a few more weeds, give it a good snap off them, twitch twitch, reel, feel the weeds etc. So in this case, I can really smack a bait, but you need to focus on exactly what it is that you are feeling the bait do. That is just another forum for the "light touch". It isn't always just working baits that you need to tap, and you don't feel too much resistance, for example, gliders. But feeling, percieving, and knowing exactly where, and what your bait is doing, and having the control to manipulate it in that fashion.
How's that for a lunchtime post. I love punctuation, so excuse the 18 million commas. |
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| "Cast
Reel
Fish eat
Set hook
Maybe fast maybe slow, maybe bulge them a little, but it's all cast reel repeat. And it works. And the fact that that same lure in the hands of anyone else on that spot at that time would have caught that fish? Doesn't bother me one bit. "
Not true, at least in my opinion. Fish for a few more years. Fish with more people. What you will see is that on the same spots, at the same time, some anglers do catch more fish than others. As I think Al Linder says, "muskies arent the fish of 10,000 casts, they're the fish of ONE cast". Meaning that its that ONE cast that is going to either catch you a fish or not.
If you've got weeds on your bait that one cast, no fish.
If your bait is tangled on the leader, no fish.
If your bait is running too high in the water column, no fish.
If your bait is running to low in the water column, no fish.
If your bait is running too fast, no fish.
If your bait is running too slow, no fish.
If your bait is stuck on a rock, no fish.
If your bait is stuck on a log, no fish.
If your bait is stuck in a tree 30ft up, no fish and your friends will make fun of you (saint1).
If your bait isnt hitting that spot on the spot, on a day when the fish wont chase, no fish.
Yes, if you chuck a bucktail at a weedline long enough, on a lake that has a good population of muskies, eventually you're going to catch a fish. Sometimes muskie fishing IS like a Saturday morning fishing show, they are just everywhere, and all you have to do is cast. But, how many times is it truly like that? Unless you fish a few times a week or more during the a large portion of the season, that MIGHT happen to you once a year.
Truth is, the feeding windows for muskies are generally very short and if you're not doing the right thing, at that right time, on that right spot, no fish. If that feeding window occurs, and you're stuck on a tree/log/rock/weed or you're picking out a backlash, or your bait is running too high/low/fast/slow, no fish.
Spend the time to learn to use the tools that you have. You might have 200 shiny new lures, but if you cant work them right when the time calls for it, no fish. Learn to work a suick high over shallow weeds, or deep off the break. Learn how to quick hop a glider just under the surface for when those bait fish are balled up high, but also learn to work it slowly off the break when the water cools and the fish want a slow presentation. One could go on and on listing the various presentations that one would be missing if all they're doing with a bucktail is....
"Cast
Reel
Fish eat
Set hook"
And lastly, there are ALOT of ways to work a bucktail.....
The REALLY tough part about muskie fishing, once you're mastered using your tools, is then knowing when to use what.
Good luck to all!
Rocky Dennis
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Posts: 8834
| Rocky, we're not talking about a guy fishing for the first time here, and he's not fishing alone -- he's fishing with some very experienced anglers who aren't going to let him throw a bucktail over a rock pile in 30 feet of water or tryt to run a depth raider through a thick millfoil bed. I think it kind of goes without saying that you have to be able to cast. You're not going to catch fish while you're picking out a backlash either, but that's not what we're talking about here.
We're talking about a guy who is presumably doing the right things in the right places because he's got people essentially guiding him whenever he is fishing because he doesn't have a boat.
And you know as well as I do, you can do all the right things in all the right places and if those fish ain't moving you ain't catching them today no matter WHO you are. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | my answer to the question of "if you are on the spot and the window is wide open what would you throw?" .... the highest hooking percentage bait in the boat = a bucktail, and i'd change directions with it and speed it up aka "sledgehammer" and get ready at the boat. and if it's in deeper structure ... a bulldawg. those two baits are spoken of time and time again in this type of combination. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | and then there's the guy who catches the 51.5" tiger on Tom with a worm! and a zebco 404 .... i'm thinking the window was open and he was in the right spot. |
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| Kevin...as stated countless times..keep fishing with the best fishermen you have the opportunity to fish with...don't just ask questions...really WATCH how they work each and every bait..and how they work there rod and reel...so much action can be imparted on the by JUST the reel handle it's amazing...it amazes me still how I can fish with so many different people and each one will work a bait differently....is there a right and wrong way to work a bait? probably not, but there are ways to work baits to up your chances at gettting a hit...
Like Joel said, just cuz it's a "sledgehammer" bait doesn't mean you have to work it that way...try tossing out a 10" jake...slowwwwwwwly reeling it..and i mean slow..then let it rise the surface...on a calm nite the wobbling back and forth of the bait on the surface makes the rattles in it make a very interesting sound...I know this tactic was deadly on more than one big fish last year in MN...had I ever thought of doing that before someone showed me? nope...many ways to work baits...even a so called "light touch" bait can be sledgehammered ....
what would I throw if the door was open and I was on the spot.... bucktail or inline topwater just for the thrill of the hit.... |
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Posts: 8834
| Aw Kev, I admit it -- I've been lyin to 'ya.
All you gotta do is what I did:
Get a visor! |
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| That is funny you say that EA...I JUST put mine on about 5 minutes ago for the trek north to Iron Co.
I'm sure I will be verbally abused by the local drunk at the Beaver Lodge and called a Tennis Pro again !
Can't wait...
Pea Patch sat nite for anyone in that neck of the woods....
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Location: Illinois | The backwards visor,
pros and cons? |
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | Look at this. A 5 1/2 year old fishing post by me. A good one, too. I used to be such a valuable contributor to this site.
Kevin |
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Location: Illinois | muskellunged - 7/23/2012 11:17 PM The backwards visor, pros and cons? Trick question, their aren't any pros. MuskyHopeful - 7/24/2012 10:04 AM Look at this. A 5 1/2 year old fishing post by me. A good one, too. I used to be such a valuable contributor to this site. Kevin Who knew you had a 3rd love behind golf and pizza? lol It is a good post. I want to work on my finesse game this season. Can you advise me how to using a pizza analogy? ?
Edited by muskellunged 7/24/2012 12:50 PM
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | I can't. I forgot everything I learned about fishing. It's a shame, really.
Kevin |
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Location: Illinois | Just fake it then, one internet wizard to another!
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