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Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | This is a subject that i have been dying to post for quite some time. First of all, i have alot of respect for the "guides" in our sport. Many of them rank as the top muskie fisherman out there. My question involves when a client captures a trophy fish and says it is his or hers personal best, when in fact the guide is actually putting that person "on" that trophy.
I have always thought that muskie fishing was comprised of finding fish (location), enticing that fish to strike, and landing the fish.
If I caught that fish of a lifetime, and didn't do these things for myself, it just wouldn't hold that satisfaction for me.
Now, this is just my opinion, and i am not anti-guide, but i wonder how some of you feel about this subject.
When i fish with a partner (good friend) we work together, in our fishing. The difference is that i am not paying that person to put me on fish.
When i speak to my friends concerning a recent catch (usually a large fish), the first question we ask is "was he or she guided?"
I'm putting this post out there to get fishermans opinions, i mean no ill will to anyone on this subject. I appreciate all opinions on this topic. Thanks, Pikiespawn |
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Posts: 32944
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Many Big Game Hunters, especially when we are talking B&C animals, hunt nearly exclusively with Outfitters if for no other reason than the Outfitter's access to the animals. Guided or not, shoot a world class buck and it's yours. the Title Outfitter is, I believe, a bit different from Guide. A guide who basically does everything for the client with little or no intention of teaching the client the area for a return trip without the guide, is really an Outfitter IMHO. It's hard work, by the way.
Most of the people who hire me are not looking for me to put them on a big fish, they are looking to learn a body of water and what works there. That's what Guides used to be all about, hence the title. I'm happy to try to put the client on a fish, that's part of the gig.
I can't troll up here because it's illegal, so the client has to place the bait, work the bait, and hook and land the fish. Yes, I'm running the boat, but what's the difference, really? How about if I'm fishing with a friend on Pelican and that friend catches a 50? Reverse things, how about if I'm fishing Moen with Theedz out of his boat while he is on the trolling motor, and I get a nice fish, if I showed him the water originally, what does that mean; am I being guided?
So really, it's a perception thing I guess, in my opinion. If I'm fishing with Herbie and get a 56, I'm gonna be happy as I can be, and so will he. Doesn't diminish the feat at all!
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Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Thanks Steve, i see your point, but i don't feel any different about hunting as i do fishing. They can count what they want, but those hunters that pay people to put them on that trophy......
Well, i just wouldn't get satisfaction from it. Now, if you are fishing with a friend that happens to be a guide........ that is different, no money is exchanging hands you are out having fun fishing together.
PS Those guys that you see on TV shooting those trophy bucks at the "buck farm" with the guides. All they do basically is pull the trigger. Well, not very sporting in my book.
Once again, just my opinion. |
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Location: Northern Wisconsin | i still get satisfaction from catching a fish with a guide but it feels alot better catching one by my self or with my dad. |
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| It would be different if you were being handed a rod with the fish already hooked. If I'm doing the casting, adding the action to the bait, rearing back on the hookset, and fighting the fish in, I could care less if someone told me what bait to use and where to cast. |
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Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Brad,
Now let me get this straight: Taking you to the spot, telling you what bait to use, telling you where to cast. Like Worrall said, this truly must be a perception thing.
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Location: Northern Wisconsin | a musky is a musky. if i go to a lake and catch a musky with a guide, sure its cool and fun to catch one
but when you got to a lake and catch one by yourself theres added excitement to it, knowing
you put your self on the fish and that you did it by your self makes you feel good.
Edited by fish4musky1 9/30/2006 3:56 PM
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| What skill does it take to cast ??? What skill does it take to crank a bucktail ? Neither takes much , it's like real estate , location location location . Thats were a guide pays off, it's smart to use one if you don't have time to learn a given body of water. But it's my opinion (you ask ) that there would be way less personal satisfaction if it took a guide to get me Mrs Big. I've been told by a guide at a lodge where a 50 plus pounder was caught that the guy ask at every spot they fish "is this where I caught it" is this where I caught it " all day long.My point is he did'nt know crap about location. Don't get me wrong, if I had the cash and was fishing a body of water I did'nt know and had limited time I'd hire one. But if I catch my dream fish it would have a asterisk for me. One opinion only ----MD |
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Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Dan,
I'm with you. If i caught a big muskie with a guide, it would have an asterick. I'm not saying that people should not use them if they want, or its "not fun" catching fish with a guide.
That's not the question.
OF COURSE, a guide can help you immensely with understanding new water. I also feel guides really help new musky fisherman learn at a faster rate. I'm not saying that fishing with a guide would not be fun.
I just don't agree with some muskie fisherman who because of unlimited cash, claim they caught this or that, when indeed they were guided. One guy, a rather nice gent, said to me that he caught this particuliar fish while trolling - Rod goes off and "IT WAS HIS TURN"
I had to laugh and did.
Time and Location as we all know, is a HUGE Part of the equation.
Edited by Pikiespawn 9/30/2006 4:15 PM
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Posts: 2894
Location: Yahara River Chain | "Count" in what way? You mean it isn't a muskie if you are guided to it?
How about this question - if you release a muskie, did you really catch it?
My feeling is - this is a stupid question.
Edited by muskie! nut 9/30/2006 4:44 PM
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Location: Northern Wisconsin | well trolling is a different story. you get in a guides boat. he picks lures, spots, everything. he puts
out lines and sets everything up. he controls boat and when you finally get a hit the guide takes the
rod out and gives it to you. not much work there. i wouldnt really brag about catching musky
that way. you really didnt do anythig but turn the reel until its at the boat. |
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Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | "Count" IN THIS WAY.....................
Read other posts, pretty much spelled out. |
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Posts: 2037
Location: lansing, il | a guide is another great tool for catching muskies...trolling is another tool for catching muskies......a fish in the boat is a fish in the boat... ive caught alot of my biggest fish with people who are guides...ive caught big fish by myself..ive caught big fish trolling...it shouldnt mater how you do it as long as you do it!! i fish with alot of guides who i am also good friends with. so whos to judge??? |
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Posts: 1530
| using a guide or chartering a boat should have no effect on does it count. i have had clients blow huge fish trolling. that doent count then. whover reels the fish in lays claim to the trophy. |
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Posts: 1335
Location: Chicago, Beverly | I will NEVER consider that a fish was not mine if I got it casting with a guide.. If I am trolling with a guide I also don't want him grabbing the rod setting the hook and handing it to me.. if its mine I want to get the rod and set the hook myself, but it would be MY fish.. I always try and use a guide one of the 1st days I go on a trip so he can show us the territory.. if I score my pb doing that its still my pb... |
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Posts: 32944
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Pikiespwan,
You asked what others thought of the question, and you are getting some pretty well thought out answers. Allow that there will be quite a few folks who disgagree with you, and allow them their opinion. In a case like this, you are no more wrong in your point of view....or right...than anyone else.
I hunt with an Outfitter in Wyoming when I can. I don't have unlimited amounts of money, heck I'm not even well to do by Smallville standards; I barter the trips. I've taken some very nice Antelope with him, but I had to stalk and set up the shot, sometimes over a half day's work. Not a game farm, either, the Triple T Ranch in Kaycee. I also bow and rifle hunt here on my land, and don't feel any better about the P&Y buck I got here than I do about the big 'goat' and nice mulie I shot on the TTT with Jack. But that's me! |
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Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Steve,
You make a very good point. The object of my post was to get some opinions on this subject.
It wasn't my wish to offend people with this. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | just the question "does it count" means there is a point being missed to me. what counts is the feeling of the outdoors on your face, seeing the critters on the way to the launch ... watching what's going on on the water, progressing from one plan to another throughout the day ... cracking that cold beer after the boat's on the trailer and everything's been stowed ... and then just telling the stories of whatever happened that day until you go to sleep tired and feeling like you did something worthwhile.
it's a sport that is worth enjoying for the pure fun of it .... not against the competition because i like to do some of that too ... but, when it gets down to what others think about your expression of the sport then it's time to re-think what you're doing, why you're doing it and with whom.
Edited by jonnysled 9/30/2006 6:40 PM
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | Wait a minute, I need a second to wrap my brain around this. You can HIRE someone to show you where and how to fish? Fishing LESSONS?
Wow. What's next, beer from a can, buying food without getting out your car, making love without making babies? Just when I think I've heard everything, this little world of ours smacks me over the head with another surprise. Next thing you know, someone will tell me the Packers aren't very good, or I can buy a sweater for my dog. Sheesh.
Kevin
Luckier than some Joes today, by minutes, not inches.
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Posts: 1530
| muskiehopefull . good chuckle. thanks i needed that one |
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Posts: 412
Location: Waukesha, WI | I find it more gratifying to boat a muskie when I've done all the work from what I've learned. But............
I've also found it a gratifying experience booking a guide and learning from him. We all define success differently, some more than others. Who's to complain. What was more valuable to me than catching muskies (but was greatful in doing so) was the couple pages of notes I took while picking his brain. Now if I only took notes on where my notes are. 
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Posts: 556
| if you catch it your self casting is casting reeling is reeling a musky is a musky |
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| I've spent the last two years fishing for muskies without a catch. My buddy suggested hiring a guide to help me, but that's not what I'm in it for. I've spent too many hours, made too many cast, and too many mistakes to give in now. When I finally catch one of these bad boys I want to know it's because I put in the time and effort, not because someone else put in the time and effort for me. |
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Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Andrew,
Try to find a musky club in your area. Go to a meeting or two, and hopefully you'll find a friend as i did, that will take you under his wing. My best friend, is also obsessed by the sport. I think we learned alot together, fishing together and making tons of mistakes. Fish or no fish we always had a good time. Its still that way today. I commend you. PS |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | a person could have a lot of fun with this one ... but, i regress or suffer certain and swift moderation ... ouch, the tongue is bleeding now. |
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Posts: 32944
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I am a Wisconsin licensed guide and have been since 1974 or so. I take pride in passing what I know on to others while working in my trade, and enjoy the job; I just wish I had more time to guide.
I consider myself an educator of sorts, as I believe many others in my field might. There's absolutely nothing wrong with hiring a guide to learn, that's what we are FOR. I am the happiest about a client when they have accomplished a skill level where they no longer need my services or those of the other guides they might have chosen to fish with; many I have guided over the years are now VERY accomplished sticks. I just hope some small portion of what made them accomplished came from the deck of my rig.
Some of my clients still hire me today, and they certainly don't need to in order to catch fish. I hope they are still on the client list because they truly enjoy the time on the water.
One thing for certain; denigrating someone for a desire to learn from one who is ready, willing, and able to teach is a bad idea. I don't think I need to point out why. Don't want to hire a guide? Fine, that's cool, and may you learn what you need to to accomplish your muskie related goals as quickly as one might hope. The fact you make that choice simply shows a different resolve.
Some days we blank. Others we don't. EVERY day I try to explain the whys. wheres, and hows so those in the rig know why I'm doing what I'm doing. If I can shorten the learing curve, I certainly will. I bet most other guides feel the same way.
Shunning the teacher because one has to pay to go to school seems a bit odd to me, but to each his own. I see no loss of pride in learning from the Masters of the Trade, I sure did. I CERTAINLY don't see where a fish caught under the watchful eye of an instructor shouldn't be considered by the angler with anything but pride.
What's the difference between learing from a guide first hand and learning from magazine articles sold to you in the form of Musky Hunter or Esox Angler, In Fisherman, or any other source? (hmmm, maybe like MuskieFIRST?) Pay to attend a show, go to a seminar, and you have done exactly the same thing to a degree. One uses the knowledge passed on to catch a fish, I fail to see the difference. Just because Dick P wasn't in the boat when you apply his tactics doesn't change the fact you got that info from him.
Just one parallel, if I was looking to learn about any other complicated sport, I'd look to the best Coach I can find. But again, that's me!
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Posts: 61
Location: Avilla, IN | Much more satisfying for me to catch a fish from a lake I chose, a spot I picked, the right time of day, my lure choice, my decision on depth of retrieve, speed of retrieve, etc. Not a knock on guides at all, just the personal satisfaction of figuring it out myself. |
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| i like fishing with guides. it helps me. guides are a great resource!
i've hired guides for various reasons: to learn a water, to get tips, to locate fish, sometimes even just because i like him and want to give him my business.
no one else tells me what "counts". in fact, i think the very concept is inane.
they all count, but i do take a bit more pleasure in fish that i catch when i'm running the boat myself than those i've caught when being guided.
for me, the difference is actually not about the fish, it's about the satisfaction of knowing that i read the water right, and figured the conditions right, and put the boat in the right spot, and made the right lure selection and cast location and...
i went fishing with my dad for 2 hours tonight on a local "pond". we didn't catch any fish, but we did have two follows and a lot of good conversation. we watched the sun make a rainbow and then light up the newly colored leaves as it set. like Sled said. it was satisfying. |
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Posts: 921
Location: Apollo, PA | Steve, Lambeau, and Duke1,
Those were very insightful posts, maybe Slamr should end this post now. It was never my intention to denegrate the guides in this sport, or their value as teachers. Everyone truly has a right to their own opinion, and to really approach this sport in their own manner. There truly is no right or wrong choice. It is up to the individual.
I knew i would probably take a little heat with this kind of post. I think it has made some people think, some people laugh, and some people angry.
Thinking is a good thing. PS |
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Posts: 32944
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Yes sir, it certainly is!  No reason to lock this down, good discussion. |
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