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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I was thinking about another subject on the board and got to reflecting on how fast most boats fish past me these days. I am an old school guy, using a controlled drift to cover water instead of running the trolling motor bow forward covering the water at Mach 6.
When I'm past an area, I can be sure a cast was placed every couple feet for sure from the anglers in my rig, covering the water in a crossing fan shaped pattern from the nose of the rig to the center of the transom.
If the fish are REALLY going, then I still move slower than most, but throw much longer faster moving casts with a bucktail, spinnerbait, or surface bait.
How fast do you fish when you aren't really thinking about it? I see some folks go by so fast there is absolutely no way they covered the water well. Do you think that matters, or do you feel the fish will move to the bait? Mike Roberts was telling me about the Angle Tuesday night, and how near surgical his cast placement had to be to get a fish to eat. I know on the Goon and LOTW I fish probably 1/3 the boat speed with the trolling motor as most, and it definitely pays off there.
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Location: The Yahara Chain | Steve I am with you, I see people blowing through areas so fast that I believe they are not covering the area very well. That is why I have no problem fishing behind a lot of people on my highly pressured local waters. Don't tell them to slow down, they should keep fishing at mach 6.  |
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Posts: 8866
| For what my opinion is worth, I think you have to work the spot more than we do a lot of times. I think we get caught up in this "if there's a hot fish there it will bite" mindset and forget about all the fish that maybe just doesn't want to chase a lure that's 10 feet away but would happily eat one that's two feet away. Run and gun...
It all comes down to do you cover a lot of water or do you cover less water very well?
I'm reminded of something a buddy of mine said on the way home in the car after a fishelss day...
"You realize that there were probably 100 muskies that saw our lures today??"
So there were, and you mean to tell me that not one of those fish was hungry?
But I'm an old bass guy, and I grew up sight fishing in ultra clear water where it matters where you throw your cast -- two feet one way or the other and that fish just sits there. |
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Posts: 1086
| The only time I heavily rely on a trolling motor, is when I'm on an electric trolling motor only lake.
My last boat...I only had the ability to use a transom mount trolling motor; what a PIA.
Just bought a new boat that comes with a bowmount trolling motor. I'll be curious to see how well I like and adapt to it. Hope the foot pedal isn't too much of a PIA. Should be interesting.
I've always been a fan of drift fishing. If the drift gets going too fast....that's when you throw the drift sock in the water to help slow things down. |
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Posts: 2112
Location: The Sportsman, home, or out on the water | I have to give K-Bob credit for slowing me down. I used to feel that the more water I covered in a day was the way to go. K has taught me that combing the water is far more effective. This is why I love to fish with other sticks- you always learn something to improve your game. |
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Posts: 1764
Location: Ogden, Ut | I THOUGHT I fished rather slow and methodically until I spent a half a day in the boat w/ Steve Worrall at the Goon. (and Steve, your boat moves slow, but your lures are still warping along in the water!) We literally disected small bays. Each square foot of water was hit by each of our lures no less than three times (all from different directions). It really opened my eyes as we rarely got a fish to hit the first time it probably saw the lure. It wasn't until the lure passed by it on the fish's terms was the 'decision' to bite made.
I think I still fish too fast, but I'm not fishing the classic 'spot on the spot' areas like most muskie waters have to offer. I have to keep changing due to falling water levels throughout the summer months. I literally can find fish on a nice flat one week and two weeks later it can be dry and 100 feet from the new shoreline. I have started working certain areas more thoroughtly when they have produced before, when they look similar to a spot that has produced before, when I notice a new structure element becoming fishable due to dropping water levels, or I just get a 'feeling' that they should hold fish. But for the most part I just put the trolling motor on as low as I can get it and still have some manuvering capability and shotgun the area. IF 'if it moves, it's food' holds true, I try to give them a couple of good looks at it moving
Sorno |
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Posts: 699
Location: Hugo, MN | I wish I saw guys fishing fast I always seem to get behind the guys that fish 1/2 the speed Worrall is advocating.
p.s. when you're fishing an 18' break that changes directions 4-5 times how do you work it with a drift?
Edited by marine_1 8/11/2005 6:33 PM
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Key word in controlled drift is 'controlled'. I can make a boat come about in the wind pretty much like a sail boat, presenting the lures to an inside turn, come about again and hit the outside turn, and move on. |
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Posts: 7123
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | I'm with Sorenson, fishing with Mr. Worrall is a lesson in patience and covering water bit by bit by bit by bit by bit by bit by bith. However, we seem to boat fish when we fish together. I'm TRYING to fish slower and slower over time, but I think it takes some CONFIDENCE to know that you are going to get the fish when they're ready to eat, if you're throwing to the right spot.
My boat flies in the wind so my drifts are at best, "semi-controlled". |
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Posts: 2427
Location: Ft. Wayne Indiana | I fish REALLY REALLY SLOW, but move my lures, REALLY REALLY FAST.
Watched video of me and Cady fishing together, I stayed in the same spot for probably 20 minutes, the boat maybe moved 15-20 yards.
I am with Steve on this one. I fish really really slow, and hit spots with about 15 different retrieve angles. It works for sure. |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | i'm so slow, i know i frustrate most people who fish with me. i guess it's just the way i was taught and it works most of the time for me. i really like to shoot lots of angles at a spot and would rather not leave water that is "good" for another spot that's probably the same or not as good. to me it's a 3-dimensional game and if you just fish one angle in one position of the water column with one bait, you've left a whole lot behind you if you move past it including depth, speed and angles unfished. the fish are there, it's just a matter of getting yourself in position and one quick pass usually won't do it. this is another reason why i have absolutely no problem going in behind someone. i just pay attention to what they have on and the angles and depths they are fishing and i just mix it up and it's fresh water to me ..... at least in my head.
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Posts: 3242
Location: Racine, Wi | Marine 1, If you watch Muskies on the Shield, Pearson shows exactly what Steve mentioned above. He works a neckdown area in the segment, and shows how he picks the spot apart. It will open your eyes, and show you what you are looking for.
Don't forget, that you can make your boat go backwards even with a bowmount. Just keep your eyes peeled on the locator, and in the water, and take in everything you see. Get to learn the spot really well, and then keep that all in mind when you hit the spot again. You will know when you are at the tip of the point, or past the inside turn etc. Then keep in mind where you are placing your casts. Mike Koepp is awesome at this as well, and the few times I have fished with him, just watching him, I learned tons!!!!!
This is an awesome thread, that shows some of the little things that people do to consistently score fish. |
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Posts: 1939
Location: Black Creek, WI | Well... I think there is a difference at times between fishing slow and being just plain anal or redundant. I try to be efficient.... which means I'll use the fastest boat speed possible to effectively work the target and present my lures. Sometimes that means the boat crawls along at a snails pace.... sometimes you are just cruising.
MRoberts may have discussed how he needed to cast with mega precision on LOTW this past July.... but he may not have mentioned that the second half of a normal cast was just a waste of time and energy. My partner and I switched our boat position to more of a "pitchin' for bass" type approach.... and got the boat right up tight so we could methodically rake the pockets and crevices with 15 foot casts. Machine gun style. This allowed us to increase the boat drift speed without sacrificing our efficiency and/or accuracy.
I also think visibility is a factor. Bigger waves or dirtier/darker water is always an indicator that your boat speed should SLOW DOWN. Calm conditions and clear water usually means you can speed things up a little... in my opinion. Cleaner cover such as sand or gravel may also allow you to speed up... but heavy cover such as weeds and wood force you to slow down. Low light situations (sunrise and sunset) are also times to slow down.
And I think Hulbert and others already pointed out another key point. Slow boat speed does not necessarily mean slow lure speeds.
jlong |
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I'm pretty sure I'm neither anal or redundant about boat control, just very careful to cover the water well. I also have found that going through an area I KNOW holds good fish a couple different way will score for me. As an example, on the Moen a few days ago I took the outside edge down in 6', then went back through in 2' casting out. Lots of possible variables, but that particular night there was 5 boats out there, and I boated and moved the only muskes fan casting out to the edge. The fish wre in about 3', splitting the distance. So why hit a presentation from that direction, and ignore or short follow same from the opposite direction? I have no idea, but I'm sure no one else had that action for only one reason: They fished the water fast and conventionally, and moved on. |
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Posts: 59
Location: St. Cloud, MN | I wanted to give my two cents on a part of this discussion. I think it becomes even more important to slow down if you don't know the water your fishing quite as well, or if your not seeing fish where they are "supposed" to be. I think that the mentality that you need to see as much of a new lake as possible to be productive is just plain wrong. It can take a lot of time to figure spots out. Everyone has those spots that they know must be fished a certain way to be productive, by fishing spots cleaner/ quieter with the use of wind you in the long run will have more productive spots to fish. There are few things in muskie fishing as fun as fishing a spot clean and coming up with fish and better understanding of a location because of your efforts. Q |
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Posts: 1939
Location: Black Creek, WI | Steve.... no offense. My point was to caution some to avoid slowing down too much. If you are fishing slower than necessary... you run the risk of being redundant (less efficient).
Kind of the same deal as the "lure progression" thing. Why painstakingly work a jig when bucktails are getting eaten? Sure, that jig will get bit too... but in that particular moment the bucktail is the better option in my opinion. Same goes for boat control.
I suppose one could argue that you need to establish something first. So... what should a guy do on his first pass over a spot? fast or slow? I guess I'd have to admit... I start slow and speed up if the fish say I can.
jlong |
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| I think slow is a limiting approach in thin or limited cover.
Heavy cover in known haunts usually justifies more casts and I will often change baits and revisit it if I feel I haven't disturbed it much. 15-17 casts into a dead tree has produced fish for myself and others, too many times to be a fluke. I am still of the opinion though that the first cast, and of course the first six feet of retrieve is a weighted % for catching a fish in the area. |
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Posts: 2112
Location: The Sportsman, home, or out on the water | I feel paitence comes with age, sort of. I used to be a "results orientated" person when I was younger. I couldn't sit still for 2 minutes, or go too long without catching a fish. That is probably why I did not get good at deer hunting, or take up musky fishing, until about 8 years ago. Now, I can sit all day long in the tree, and since seeing the results of slowing down (thanx again K-bob), I feel that I have seen ALOT more fish, than I would have. |
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Posts: 1939
Location: Black Creek, WI | OK.... I think everyone has a differing opinion on just what "slow" is. How about this... if you are drifting a shoreline... how many casts could you make to the same dock as you float past? One on each side? Two on each side? 5 on each side? Dare I say 10 a side?
What is slow to you?
I'll then ask... how many casts does it take to catch a fish from that dock? If it only takes 4 and you are making 10... doesn't that seem a little redundant? Also, to make 5 casts at the dock with a Creeper will take much longer than 5 casts with a bucktail... so your boat speed needs to adjust accordingly. Is one slow (creeper) and the other fast (bucktail)?
Wasn't there an article in Musky Hunter or EA once entitled "Fish it Clean"? I think that is the point here.... we want to fish stuff clean... but as efficiently as possible. Pending your presentation and cover situation... your boat speed may vary significantly. There is no one best boat speed.
jlong
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Posts: 185
Location: Mendota Heights, MN | What I am wondering is this: Do you prefer a "controlled drift" with the wind moving you, or do you prefer a "controlled drift" moving into the wind with the trolling motor set very slow, just enough to move you forward?
My experience has been that you sacrifice a lot of control letting the wind move you along,(sure it works great in some situations), and that it is much easier and accurate to control your movements with the bow into the wind, trolling moter just barely moving you along.
This is a great thread because I truely beleive boat control is one of the top 3 factors in consitently successful fishing.
Thoughts?
Steve |
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I agree, there is no 'correct' boat speed. I am primarily speaking to the idea that the boat can be controlled allowing the water to be carefully covered, whatever each angler interprets that to mean. I fish structure more thoroughly than most; reason being I believe that sometimes it isn't just the bait traveling through a potential strike zone that gets the fish to eat, sometimes it's the direction it's moving through the strike zone. SOmetimes bait speed can make all the difference. I vary both and may cover a piece of water as many as three times from different angles. I'll only do that if I am SURE there are muskies present. If I'm looking for fish I still am pretty thorough, but move along at a faster clip.
In Jason's dock example, if I am SURE there is a 48" muskie near or under that dock, sure, I might cast at it 10 or 12 times. If I suspect there is, maybe 5 total. If I am searching, still 5. Also, one needs consider that Jason has a very good idea if a fish might be on a particular piece of water on one of his favorite lakes, and another angler new to that water might not have a clue. If I'm on new water I take it slow until I know.
My point is lately it seems I am always getting passed by other anglers. They are done with the weedline/rock drop off/slop/whatever in 1/3 to 1/4 the time it takes me, with the nose of the boat always pointing to the end of the structure and the trolling motor near constant on.
Bait speed has everything to do with boat speed, because of the time it takes to reel the bait back in. Bait selection/speed is a function of what I feel the fish's activity level might be. |
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Posts: 185
Location: Mendota Heights, MN | One other question on this point.
Do you think the technique holds true for fishing rocks as well as weeds? More so?
Steve |
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I really like moving against or holding and releasing the boat moving perpendicular to the wind (sailing). It's a rare deal the wind blows exactly down the structure, but if it is and it's too strong to buck against and control the boat, I'll 'sail' instaed of have the wind at the transom. Rocks and deep breaks can mean about a dozen sructure types. Sand, for example, with no cover at all, can be fished pretty quickly. Add rubble, slow her down some and cover it. Add boulders, make sure the lure covers any vantage point a fish in those boulders might have at the time. Add two breaks in one casting distance ( as on many areas on Leech, or the Goon, for example, where the fish might key on a 2' break to 5', or 5' to 12', all in a casting distance), then I really slow the attack trying to cover each as if they were seperate structure, because to me they are. |
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Posts: 2112
Location: The Sportsman, home, or out on the water | in reference to the dock example, I used to be one cast to the dock total, because I was moving so fast. Now, 4, maybe five per side. For wind, if it is just light enough to move me at the speed I want, i ride it. if it is too strong, I fight it (don't have a drift sock-yet). If I feel the structure has serious potential, I'll run 20 casts or so. 4 or 5 casts of each Glider, crank, dawg, and either topwater or buck, but not nessecarily in that order. depends what stick I have in my hand when I get to it. This is a very thought provoking thread! I like it!
Edited by muskynightmare 8/13/2005 10:42 PM
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Posts: 941
Location: Freedom, WI | A little trick I have done to help steer a drift. I added a piece of plastic to the trolling motor to make it act like a rudder and also helps for tracking when under power. Take about a 1 foot by 1 foot piece (size depends on your motor) and clamp it with plastic conduit clamps on the shaft. A little silicone from the plastic to the motor and your good to go. |
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| I love toss out the drift sock off the rear and make a controlled drift with the sock you are diven by current as well as the winds influence so you can pick the spot apart and never need to touch the bowmount unless something interesting happens |
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Posts: 1023
Location: Lafayette, IN | If I need to set the boat up at an angle I'll fully deploy my outboard and turn the wheel hard AWAY from the structure. This tends to set the boat up sideways as my electric motor guides my bow towards and down the structure. Also work great while on a drift only using the bow mount for corrections.
Great thread!
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Posts: 2112
Location: The Sportsman, home, or out on the water | You know, I've read about that tip time and again, but on the water, i usually forget to use it! |
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | That's exactly how I control my boat if the wind is blowing in on the structure and I need to drift down in against or perpendicular to the wind direction; when you pull forward a bit with the electric, the boat oversteers a bit, then the wind pushes it back to point one taking much more time than if the main power wasn't acting as a rudder. If I need to come about and face the opposite direction for awhile, I turn the main power motor the other way. My main power motor is always trimmed all the way down. |
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Posts: 622
Location: Seymour, WI | Thanks for starting this post.
I also like to fish at a slower pace, but lately it seems like I'm so excited to fish that I've been fishing at a much faster pace. Boat control is something I cotinue to work on and I do think I fish much more effectively when I fish at a slower pace. The fish keep telling me this too, but my excitement to be fishing keeps speeding me up. |
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