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Message Subject: The color debate | |||
ToddM![]() |
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Posts: 20248 Location: oswego, il | I know many people say color doesn't matter, or some say contrast matters. Could it be that in many cases we aren't putting enough fish in the boat on a given day to put that part of the pattern together? I get the whole study of color under water and the Muskie's ability to see color in it. LSC has been a place where time and time again color made the difference. I have seen gold work in dirty water and in the same water in a different year around the same time pearl. I have seen black work and white not and in a these cases with the same bait out in a different color does not work. Put another of the same color and it works. I am talking the same bait different color and putting a second bait in the color that's firing and it's firing. You wouldn't think color would make a difference in limited visibility but it does there. I remember being out there one time we caught a few and talked to a charter captain to did really well and said the only baits that fired were mostly red. I have also talked to guys who fish lotw that have had similar results with bucktails. I know many people say color doesn't matter, maybe there are times it doesn't but there are times when it's a big part of it. I am fsctoring in that depth, speed and the other components are right, then I think color can play a big factor. Edited by ToddM 1/21/2021 10:16 AM | ||
Tackle Industries![]() |
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Posts: 4053 Location: Land of the Musky | From my PRO staffers for almost 20 years now, Blue and Black are some of the best producers. From a sales point of view, which I take far far more serious... ![]() Edited by Tackle Industries 1/21/2021 10:18 AM | ||
hawkeye9![]() |
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Posts: 426 Location: Perryville, MO | If I could only flip one color of jig the rest of my life for bass without a doubt it would be blue and black. Of course, I'll throw green pumpkin every once-and-a-while and many times a swim jig will be white for me, but blue and black remain a staple for a good reason. So...it makes sense to me that blue is likely overlooked too often for us in the muskie game. (For whatever it's worth, if it's a senko on my line then no doubt it's some shade of green.) While I've read a bunch of the info that Steve has pointed us to over the years with regard to color (both as it changes in depth and how fish may perceive it) I'm as confused as I ever was and rely on conventional wisdom to make the predictable choices. Background (the sky) and water clarity guide my choices. White mostly (because of the lake I fish and it's proven success based on forage), black (because of contrast), or anything loud/bright (because the water is chocolate soup). In other words, I don't know anything Todd and I'll read better responses and ponder some more on it. But my pontification always leads me back to contrast. | ||
North of 8![]() |
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Tackle Industries - 1/21/2021 10:17 AM From my PRO staffers for almost 20 years now, Blue and Black are some of the best producers. From a sales point of view, which I take far far more serious... ![]() If I remember the story correctly, the 50+ pound musky Tom Gelb caught was on a Harley Davidson blue crankbait. | |||
Top H2O![]() |
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Posts: 4080 Location: Elko - Lake Vermilion | North of 8 - 1/21/2021 11:39 AM Tackle Industries - 1/21/2021 10:17 AM From my PRO staffers for almost 20 years now, Blue and Black are some of the best producers. From a sales point of view, which I take far far more serious... ![]() If I remember the story correctly, the 50+ pound musky Tom Gelb caught was on a Harley Davidson blue crankbait. That's because it leaked Oil ! ![]() | ||
Shroomskie![]() |
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Posts: 35 | Anything with B.A.T. | ||
Kirby Budrow![]() |
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Posts: 2373 Location: Chisholm, MN | I think you're spot on. There isn't enough data recorded. St. Clair is probably the only place where a study would even work given the amount of fish caught per year, and variability in water color. I think that trolling would be the only way to study it as well since strikes from casters largely depends on the way each person works the bait. Put together a study from LSC trollers and I will believe color matters. I think it might matter a little, but not as much as people think. Just my opinion obviously, but the lack of data is the problem I have with it. | ||
Brian Hoffies![]() |
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Posts: 1783 | I like white with a dab of red around the gill area. Can't tell you why, but it works for me. | ||
JGlass![]() |
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Location: Vilas | I use to troll the Madison chain alot. In 1998 a clown colored DR would catch 3 to 1 over anything else. The following year it never got bit, it was a perch or sucker color that got all the action. The next year, color didnt matter in the least, but had to be a jointed DR. I cant say I seen a difference in water color from year to year......so, I have no answers. | ||
ToddM![]() |
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Posts: 20248 Location: oswego, il | Kirby Budrow - 1/21/2021 12:37 PM I think you're spot on. There isn't enough data recorded. St. Clair is probably the only place where a study would even work given the amount of fish caught per year, and variability in water color. I think that trolling would be the only way to study it as well since strikes from casters largely depends on the way each person works the bait. Put together a study from LSC trollers and I will believe color matters. I think it might matter a little, but not as much as people think. Just my opinion obviously, but the lack of data is the problem I have with it. What's even more interesting is that I have seen color make a difference there even in the muddiest water. Like I said one time gold with black bars was working another year pearl, swapping to an identical.bait and color produced fish. Another instance in the muddy water a black hardhead. White one would not catch fish until I put a black tail on it then it caught 3. | ||
BillM![]() |
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![]() Posts: 197 | As long as it's orange and black I'm good. | ||
sworrall![]() |
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Posts: 32924 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | A small difference (not noticed all the time) in overall water clarity can make a LARGE difference in what the fish are seeing. Sky conditions average from one trip to another...a big variable. Time of year due to sun angle, two weeks can make a big difference. Think light penetration and source and it will make more sense. Depth is a huge variable, if you are running the lure 6' on one day or trip and 9 on another, that can mean as much as 30% of the color being filtered out. Orange can be yellow base with red to tint or red base with yellow to tint. Big difference in 6' of water between the two. Black is the darkest color, the result of the absence or complete absorption of visible light, si is always going to be contrasting with the background, even at night. Sometimes muddy doesn't mean hard to see as much as color being filtered out. What the bait looks like in very low light will tell you what's going on there. White objects fully reflect and scatter all the visible wavelengths of light while red is the first to be absorbed, so much of the time red is black or close to it. | ||
IAJustin![]() |
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Posts: 2059 | what I do know is what appear to be identical baits (to us) definitely don't get identical result...see this all the time trolling | ||
mikie![]() |
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Location: Athens, Ohio | Interesting article on the subject: https://www.mepps.com/mepps-tactics/article/color-technology-what-yo... m | ||
ToddM![]() |
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Posts: 20248 Location: oswego, il | IAJustin - 1/21/2021 3:09 PM what I do know is what appear to be identical baits (to us) definitely don't get identical result...see this all the time trolling I agree with that. In my instances however I am catching fish on one bait and color and I have the same bait out and a different color not catching fish. I then put out the same bait and color of the one catching fish and that one is now firing as well. Seen this scenario many times. LSC is different in that if fish are biting making the right choices can give you near instant feedback. In the cases I mentioned it didn't take 15 minutes to know color made the difference. | ||
Masqui-ninja![]() |
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Posts: 1267 Location: Walker, MN | Troll multiple lines with different colors out for a whole season and tell me that color doesn't matter.. It's less scientific when were casting, because of all of the other variables. Whatever gives you confidence is always better. Edited by Masqui-ninja 1/21/2021 4:11 PM | ||
sworrall![]() |
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Posts: 32924 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Of course color matters, vision is a very important factor in how muskies attack and capture prey. They need to see it for maximum success. 'Preference' is not the best term, it's what they can see best that gets bit. Same thing with above water predators, but since there's no water to break down color so it's much more simple, like snowshoe hares turning white in the winter. | ||
Kirby Budrow![]() |
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Posts: 2373 Location: Chisholm, MN | sworrall - 1/21/2021 4:18 PM Of course color matters, vision is a very important factor in how muskies attack and capture prey. They need to see it for maximum success. 'Preference' is not the best term, it's what they can see best that gets bit. Same thing with above water predators, but since there's no water to break down color so it's much more simple, like snowshoe hares turning white in the winter. The point of a white hare makes sense when thinking about a predator that is looking for prey that’s sitting still trying to camouflage itself. But if a bucktail of any color is whizzing by a muskies face, he will know it’s there. Even if it’s blind, it can still eat it. So the fish would have to prefer a color over another that day for it to decide to chase and eat it. I don’t really see that as a reality. A fish is not that discriminative. Again, just my opinion. The way I look at it is maybe there is an obvious color that the fish doesn’t like. It’s completely obvious to the fish that this is not food. I don’t know. | ||
sworrall![]() |
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Posts: 32924 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Kirby Budrow - 1/21/2021 5:22 PM sworrall - 1/21/2021 4:18 PM Of course color matters, vision is a very important factor in how muskies attack and capture prey. They need to see it for maximum success. 'Preference' is not the best term, it's what they can see best that gets bit. Same thing with above water predators, but since there's no water to break down color so it's much more simple, like snowshoe hares turning white in the winter. The point of a white hare makes sense when thinking about a predator that is looking for prey that’s sitting still trying to camouflage itself. But if a bucktail of any color is whizzing by a muskies face, he will know it’s there. Even if it’s blind, it can still eat it. So the fish would have to prefer a color over another that day for it to decide to chase and eat it. I don’t really see that as a reality. A fish is not that discriminative. Again, just my opinion. The way I look at it is maybe there is an obvious color that the fish doesn’t like. It’s completely obvious to the fish that this is not food. I don’t know. It's not actually the color or preference for color. That's an ever-changing landscape under water, and there's no standard for paint colors. In the exact same water at the exact same depth green paint can go from yellow-ish to grey as a cloud goes by in seconds. If that bucktail is against a grey-ish background (the sky when clouds cover the sun, for example), it will not be very visible. Same day, same conditions, a red/black would leap out at 'em. Add to that the fact muskies are myopic. It's well accepted that muskies are sight feeders in the final attack, yet you are right, they will know a bucktail is there, those things really create a ruckus under water. | ||
Masqui-ninja![]() |
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Posts: 1267 Location: Walker, MN | Well, if we could agree that contrast could matter, and a fish might respond negatively to a certain color... Yes, I'm not sure myself that a certain color can trigger a feeding response in a muskie...though i'm not ruling it out. I personally believe I've seen this in other predatory fish at times. I don't know either. | ||
Ranger![]() |
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Posts: 3907 | No debate to me, its settled, color matters. More than that, subtle color matters. Check this... when I lived in the Yoop I was near some flooded mine ponds full of timber, muskies, bass and walleye. I mean chock full of fish. And timber. There were no landings and nobody with a nice boat would ever try to launch. I fished one particular pond a couple times a week for almost 2 years. Water was always gin clear. Always. Here's what I learned...... Rule #1 - If the bass chase it the muskies will, too. Conversely, If the bass ignore it so will the muskies. I could always see bass hanging out near shallow structure. They often chased my Suicks, Top Raiders and Poes JPots. But when they didn't I knew to size down and slower to twitching suspending cranks. When that didn't work it was Bucher 700s and GhostTails. If those didn't work then it was all hot pink Mepps Muskie Killers. If that didn't work it was brown/silver and such Muskie Killers, more natural colors, but big flash. If that didn't work it was all black Muskie Killers, starting with yellow dots on the blade. If that didn't work it was either all black with green letters or all black with yellow letters. I would roll down thru that sequence within an hour or so. I could always see how the bass responded, always. And as soon as I landed on a bait the bass chased I caught muskies, too. It often came down to black blades with yellow letters vs black blades with green letters. Now, remember, I'm fishing this water about every other day, on average. Sometimes I fished it every day for a week (I brought my boat to work with me.). Anyway, I totally believe, by experience, that colors matter. I saw it myself. Change change change until they chase the bait. Bass are a terrific barometer for what the muskies want. | ||
Bondy![]() |
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Posts: 719 | The color that is working best is usually the one we forgot to bring. | ||
sworrall![]() |
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Posts: 32924 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | A lack of response is usually corresponding with a lack of stimulus. I think not necessarily a rejection as much as that. I have watched hundreds of hours of muskies and pike under the ice with an Aqua-View, and it's really interesting to watch what gets them to chase and when. There's a disturbing amount of time when absolutely nothing works, zero response at all. I've had many esox blast up to a moving lure or minnow trying to hit it, stop dead and look the wrong direction--- yet still are all fired up. Get that lure above them, far enough away and move it, and they see it, lock on, stutter along a bit, and then attack. Sometimes it has to be completely still after they lock on or they take off. Once had a really big muskie into the low 50's mess with a crappie jig for about 15 minutes. It actually hit the thing in a really interesting sort of waffling of the jaws motion, and I had it hooked for about 30 seconds until the tiny hook pulled out. That fish swam off and returned when I jigged several times. | ||
horsehunter![]() |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | I've caught hundreds of muskies on Firetiger Suicks the best ones have no paint left. If it moves it's food. | ||
sworrall![]() |
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Posts: 32924 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | horsehunter - 1/21/2021 6:16 PM I've caught hundreds of muskies on Firetiger Suicks the best ones have no paint left. If it moves it's food. Sometimes. Other times is inexplicably totally ignored. That's the beauty of this ridiculous sport. Drives me nutz. | ||
Kirby Budrow![]() |
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Posts: 2373 Location: Chisholm, MN | Well, I have a million baits in all different colors so hopefully I’m wrong! | ||
horsehunter![]() |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | I really can't imagine pulling my brown perch Fatty past a muskie and her saying that's brown perch I'm gona wait for a glitter perch. I believe success depends on location and timing. I've fished a lot of tournaments Muskies Canada calls them Outings some where many fish were caught and some where few fish were caught, but never one where the fish were all caught on the same colour. | ||
sworrall![]() |
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Posts: 32924 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Kirby Budrow - 1/21/2021 6:32 PM Well, I have a million baits in all different colors so hopefully I’m wrong! I think that makes you right...I have a similar number so by sheer commitment we have to be right. | ||
horsehunter![]() |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | I've fished days with my Suick on on rod and a Rob Dey spinnerbait on another while my partner cycled through a bushel of baits some days we both catch fish somedays we are both skunked. I can't remember often being outfished by someone wasting time changing baits. | ||
ToddM![]() |
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Posts: 20248 Location: oswego, il | Another thing I will say is that sometimes color is general or not specific. I have seen days where say anything goldish, yellow or perch with those colors will work. Days where everything between blue silver and hot perch. Then there are those days when it's one color and one color only. I think having certain abilities to have the near instant feedback catching many fish in a day is the only way you can really tell. It's not feedback you can get if you catch 1 or 2 fish in a day which ironically is a good day of musky fishing. | ||
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