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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Read about it! The muskie community has spoken. It's time to confirm and recognize the giants released each year, and offer a record keeping organization for the anglers and fans of the sport interested in a release program. I have been wishing for a consistent, workable, and safe-for-the-fish method to recognize some of the beasts caught every year. Larry performed the work to make this possible, and MuskieFIRST welcomes this program aboard.
Larry will address this in much more detail this evening.
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Posts: 8782
| This is a great thing for those of us who have no desire to obtain 3.5 minutes of fame at the expense of a 35 year old fish just to prove it was as big as we say it was. Larry's work on this has been huge. Looking forward to this!!
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Posts: 69
| Dominic and I are totally floored reading this and also extremely humbled by all that has transpired since 11/25. Obviously we take great pride in these fish and want the future to be as good for our kids as it has been for us. This program will definitely help that! The catch and kill mentality is a thing of the past and we are so happy to see the new program recognizing current practices and ethics within the muskie community! We will hold "The Queen" on top with the respect she deserves as long as she remains there! Thank you Larry and Steve for listening to everyone that has chimed in over the years and implementing a great program. It shall be a great success!
Dean Block |
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | progress! |
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Posts: 1291
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | To all MuskieFirsters (and the world):
You asked for it and now you've got it! Steve noted that I would chime in with much more detail, although there isn't really a lot more to detail. Quite simply, to qualify one only need to capture, DOCUMENT FULLY as did Dean and Dominic, a giant that calculates to over 58 pounds using the "Modified Crawford Formula" (L X G/25 -8). This formula is easy to use quickly, and is as near accurate as humanly possible for fish of this caliber without understating fish weight. Nothing is perfect in this regard and it is still an "estimate", but it is an estimate that will be the same for all, based on fish measurement.
Proper, commercial bump (measuring) boards must be used for length measurement and a soft tape for girth measurement that is readable in a photograph. Obviously photographs equal to or greater than those obtained by Dean and Dominic are required, i.e., distant and close ups of both measurement and the close ups must be readable as well as a good shot of the fish being held...Dean and Dominic set the bar very high in this regard and left no doubt of the mammoth size of their fish.
And here is what I think you will find to be an interesting kicker; Should there be any questions or concerns of future contenders, YOU, the registered members of the MuskieFirst forum, will in effect, be the program Committee and will vote thumbs up or thumbs down on a questionable entry!
When a friend first called and asked me if we wanted to get involved in establishing a release world record, I said "Absolutely not! Are you out of your "frigging" (or something like that) mind?" But after stewing on it for a couple of days, I could see that there just might be a way to make it work on released muskies; something the majority have been clamoring for, for years. And here we are...we hope you all approve and that this program will continue to save untold numbers of giant muskies, while at the same time giving them their just recognition...
Edited by Larry Ramsell 12/11/2015 7:45 PM
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Posts: 1901
Location: MN | Yay! And to think just a week or so ago Ben Olsen and a few of us here were clamoring for just such a program. Larry you shot it down then - glad you changed your mind and helped put it together. Thank you |
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Posts: 264
| Fabulous!
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Posts: 1247
Location: Walker, MN | Way to go guys! Thank you! |
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| Thank You!!! |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | You don't have to weigh it JUST SAY IT |
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Posts: 1901
Location: MN | horsehunter - 12/12/2015 7:29 AM
You don't have to weigh it JUST SAY IT
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Location: varies | can we settle or quantify the difference that makes a "giant" , a "monster" and a "dink" ? also a "slob giant" and a "slob monster"?
whats actually bigger, a giant or a monster? |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | Leaving the finale decision to the members of an online fishing form is bizarre at best .
Edited by horsehunter 12/12/2015 9:18 AM
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Location: Sawyer County, WI | horsehunter - 12/12/2015 9:16 AM
Leaving the finale decision to the members of an online fishing form is bizarre at best .
I have to believe that while everybody can have input on a given entry, Larry would have the final say. If this isn't the case, then any "record" decided here might as well be a debate about which reel is best for double 10s.
First things first - thanks Larry (and Steve) for stepping up to fill an obvious void in the record keeping of our sport. Can we expect a published set of rules, similar to the MDMWRP ? I believe an iron clad set of rules along with a best practice guidelines for measuring and photographic supporting evidence will go a long way to eliminating the usual discourse we see whenever a controversial topic is raised.
Thanks again Larry. This is sure to be a thankless job but I can't think of anybody more qualified to tackle it. |
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Posts: 1291
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | Horsehunter (Frank): NO, you can't "just say it". As noted in my first post, it MUST be documented at least as well as was done on the "Mille Lacs Queen". PERIOD (Dfkiii, that should answer your question too...my post has the "rules" for documentation and acceptance.).
Let's be realistic Frank, it was the members of this forum that wanted this and it shall be them to decide any controversy. We are juggling the desire for CPR and knowing the size of fish released. As I have noted before, I developed a "Point System" for this kind of a program that would work, BUT, no matter what that result was, everyone would still want to know "what did it weigh?". While this new formula is very close on this caliber of fish, it will always remain merely an "estimate" of live weight. It will never replace weighing one on a certified scale, but it will satisfy today's conservation minded muskie anglers and protect a lot of giant fish.
Rodbender: Your call. For our purposes here, it will take "a very big muskie" to displace our current new record! We are dealing with world class fish in the 58 pound and over category. In my book these fish are, "giants" or Monsters" and they may "slobber" too! Dinks on the other hand...well, if you have to ask... |
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Posts: 32886
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | horsehunter - 12/12/2015 7:29 AM
You don't have to weigh it JUST SAY IT
This is a release category. If you neither support the concept of a release category, that's fine. It's happening anyway.
Larry will confirm each entry and will have the final word, but input from the Muskie community will be taken seriously. You will have the bump board images, girth images, and a number of CRR images. If it's 'done right' there won't be much controversy. If it isn't, it won't qualify.
As was already said, if the fish qualifies and is successfully released, the weight may be forever unknown, but we'll be close. And the fish will still be swimming. I fail to see the problem. |
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Location: Sawyer County, WI | Thanks Larry. To recap:
1) Fish must be measured on a commercial bump board. Implies any home made boards will be disqualify the entry immediately.
2) Soft tape for girth measurement. Again, assumes that the tape must be commercially produced.
3) Photos must be at least as good as the ones Dean and Dom took. Subjectivity will prevail over rule #3.
4) Record validity will be voted upon by the registered members of the forum. While unlikely that a split decision would occur somebody could always create a new log in and break the tie.
This seems to be more of "fun" venture than an "official" one. Fair enough. At least we might see some of the giants that get released without a word and as a side benefit, Todd will be pleased to see photos with bump boards in them. |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | Successful release is unverifiable unless release to the turtles qualifies |
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Posts: 8782
| horsehunter - 12/12/2015 12:54 PM
Successful release is unverifiable unless release to the turtles qualifies
The same could be said for every fish we catch.
I believe this is the best method anyone has come up with. As long as we apply the same criteria to all of them, and the same formula there's not much to argue about.
Pretty sure some will try, though. |
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| Congrats to Dean & Dominic on a new world record!
Im guessing she will dump a few pounds of eggs come spring.
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Location: Eastern Ontario | It is my and only my belief that anything that that has a reasonable chance of besting the current record should be harvested weighted in front of indisputable witnesses and turned over to scientist. In Canada where I live if the fish were mine it would go to John Cassleman and Bruce Tufts at Queens University.
It is also my belief based on the number of large fish that I know died and the number of floaters seen by myself and friends on the St Lawrence that a lot more large fish are not surviving that we would like to believe.Over the years i have seen a lot of released fish grow in the bar and heard of some that even grew in front of witnesses to the catch.
I will still go with what Larry has said for many years if you don't weigh it don't say it.
But that's only my opinion and worth exactly what it cost you. |
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Posts: 1291
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | Dfkiii: You pretty much have it nailed. If one is close enough for a tie, well, it would have to suspect is some manner, correct? This is an "official" venture and should be "fun" as well! AND, Mr. Worrall has given me "the last word".
Horsehunter (Frank): Did you watch the video? Looked pretty lively to me. Get over it, it is "game on". Just do it right when you catch her or keep quiet. Yes, we can never be sure they make it, but as I said many times over 35 years ago when I started promoting catch and release, "I guarantee you if you knock them over the head they won't make it, but if you let them go, they at least have a chance"!
EA: Thank you. And I concur.
Edited by Larry Ramsell 12/12/2015 2:09 PM
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Posts: 13688
Location: minocqua, wi. | how bout a rule that you have to have your own photos and video of a contestable fish before you can argue or complain? and at that point you earn a red flag that you can use at will and throw it onto the field of play for official review. until then you have no red flag.
Edited by jonnysled 12/12/2015 2:32 PM
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Posts: 8782
| Larry, is there a "cutoff point" at which you believe it would be better to modify the formula using a minus factor of 9 (or the original 10) to give a more accurate representation of likely weight? I realize this top is about record class fish so I don't mean to hijack it. Just curious for those of us who will likely never catch one over 50#.. |
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Posts: 2024
| Good news! I like the new formula as well. My PB grew from 45.63 to 48.16 with it. Now the question is, what company will be the first to make their bump boards with measurements for 16ths of an inch? |
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Posts: 8782
| jonnysled - 12/12/2015 2:30 PM
how bout a rule that you have to have your own photos and video of a contestable fish before you can argue or complain? and at that point you earn a red flag that you can use at will and throw it onto the field of play for official review. until then you have no red flag.
You sure you want to open that door, Jon?  |
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| WOW...sad to witness the death of common sense!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Posts: 1291
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | EA: The new formula, as noted in the news release, is based on a data base of fish of known weight from 53 to 61.25 pounds. I haven't yet taken the time to do work on the weights below that. I give credibility for this new formula only in the weights noted above. I'm sure that there is a point were a minus 9 would be more accurate for the lesser weights back to the point of the original minus 10 working best....sorry ARmuskyaddict. |
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Posts: 67
| Larry I have the greatest respect for you and the work you have done ,,,But " IF YOU DON'T WEIGH IT YOU CAN'T SAY IT " starting this new record org just devalues everything that you have said over the years , There is too much chance of a record being given or taken by a popularity vote , you of all people should recognize this from the fiasco of the OBRIAN fish , I too have seen the video and talked to people who were there that were and are upstanding honorable men and at the time it was all good , so what now when you are gone like Powers and the rest that were there at the time will you be discredited , that would be a shame , It all boils down to one thing , if you want to be a Hero for the day Bonk it , weigh it and donate it to science like Frank states , if not let it go and we can all act like gentleman and say " NICE FISH " , Remember you can go from a zero to a hero and a hero to a zero in one day , it only lasts until the next monster is caught or someone with less integrity wants their name in lights ! Good work on the new formula but it still does not prove a thing
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Posts: 20219
Location: oswego, il | Great program and a worthy fish to start with. That being said it would have been cool to start from scratch then I could go out and catch a 35"er and at least for a day, have a catch and release record! |
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