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wallytap |
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Posts: 33 | Does anyone have a boat count yet? I've checked the WMT site but, can't get it working. Hunter are you out there? | ||
| MeHabeeb |
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Posts: 492 Location: Lindenhurst, Illinois | If I am not mistaken isn't the guy who runs this tournament one of the guys that was against the size limit increases in Wisconsin? If so, we should boycott his tournament. | ||
| Craig Eversoll |
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Posts: 188 Location: Madison, WI | If the 45 inch size limit for the local lakes makes it through the next phase (it passed at the Spring Hearings) it shouldn't be too long and the "transport" tournaments will have to change their rules. Come to think of it, that might be one of the reasons for the opposition... that's just speculation on my part though. I could be way off base. Craig Eversoll | ||
| ToddM |
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Posts: 20221 Location: oswego, il | I think judge boats are the eventuality. Can't buy an 8-track tape anymore, you will eventually not see a transport musky tournament. | ||
| wallytap |
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Posts: 33 | If the 45" min. goes thru...Wouldn't that basically put a end to Musky tournamants here in Wis? No organization wants to sponsor a tournamant where MAYBE only a couple of fish are caught/registered.....100 boat tournamant with low chance of catching a legal fish to register....That's throwing $ out of the boat at WOT! | ||
| MikeHulbert |
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Posts: 2427 Location: Ft. Wayne Indiana | Why does everybody always say, "lets boycott!" I just don't understand that. People fish tourneys because they are fun, and for a chance to cash a check. So what if the size limit is 45 and only 1-2 fish are caught. That makes it even better. You are just going to have to be that much better than everybody else. The WMT is a well ran tourney, Tom does a great job. Keep up all the good-hard work Tom! Mike Hulbert | ||
| Mikes Extreme |
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Posts: 2691 Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | Whats the problem with going to judge boats? If run this way you can set the size limits at whatever you want. The PMTT was at 34 inches for the first qualifier and that lake had a 48 inch limit, that was not a problem. Give it time, things will change for the better. | ||
| MRoberts |
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Posts: 714 Location: Rhinelander, WI | Wallytap, The WDNR has specifically said they would allow the running of non transport tourneys exactly the way the PMTT ran on Shelbyville. With a 45 inch limit the WMT could set the tourney size at 34 or even 30 and run the event. Contestants hold the fish at the side of the boat in the net and wait until a judge comes along. Attached are the rules for non transport tourneys this is what the DNR would let you do, even with undersized fish. For those who say these are special rules just for tourneys, I say it is a heck of a lot better than what we have now, compromises have to be made some place and this one sure is livable. A. Recommended “Immediate-Release” Format - All fishing tournaments for which muskellunge is a listed species should, whenever possible, be "immediate release" for muskellunge. Available technologies, such as cellular phones and digital cameras, make “immediate-release”. a viable option under most circumstances. All “immediate-release” tournaments (where muskellunge are caught, immediately registered on the water, and released) must meet the following conditions: 1. Participants must possess a “cradle” or landing net of sufficient size to allow a muskellunge to remain upright in the water at boat side. 2. When a muskellunge is caught, the boat can not be moved under power except within the immediate vicinity of the capture site to avoid eminent danger and to facilitate a quick and safe release of the fish. If the boat is moved for greater distances or for other purposes, the fish must be counted towards the angler’s daily bag limit, pursuant to s. NR 20.05(7), Wis. Adm. Code. 3. The muskellunge must be held in a net in the water at boat-side and should not be boated except as absolutely necessary to remove hooks or to avoid eminent danger as described in 2. Tournament sponsors should consider recommending the use of barbless hooks to expedite the release process. 4. Upon landing a muskellunge, the angler must immediately initiate the official tournament registration process. 5. Any angler who catches a muskellunge may not resume fishing until the fish has been successfully released. Registration of fish is restricted to the measurement of length (no weighing, fin clipping, tagging or other marking unless part of an approved DNR study). In-water measurement of the fish is recommended when ever possible. 6. The muskellunge should be released immediately following registration or when it is capable of swimming upright under its own power. Nail A Pig! | ||
| wallytap |
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Posts: 33 | If it works for the state...good enough for me.With tournamant sponsors setting their own min. size that allows all tournamants to proceed.Let the season begin! | ||
| MuskyMidget |
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Posts: 921 | I too thought of boycotting the WMT because of the transport rules and Tom's NO vote on the 50" limit. I have changed my stance reading the hundreds of posts on all the sites. My new rule is ... If the DNR says it's ok and legal, then who am I to argue? If Wisconsin's DNR doesn't feel the need to protect fish through non-transport tourneys or larger size limits, who am I to argue? After all, aren't they the one's who are supposed to know what's best for the fish? I'm just glad I live in MN and the only reason I fish in Wisconsin is because I enjoy fishing tournaments =O) | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32887 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | As changes are implemented, the use of the waters by everyone will adjust. | ||
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| Hello Wallytap, Sory but we were in the proccess of changing over our server and the WMT's web site was down. We already have more entries then last year but admittedly, not as good as I had hoped for. We are still receiving enties daily and hope to have a good crowd. I don't know if you are in it yet, Beth does all the paper work and tracks that I do not, but I hope you are going to be able to make it and please tell others to enter. If you are interested, we have less than ten spot left in our Pewuakee tournament, May 10. With the amount of teams who have called me, or e-mailed me, inquiring about the Pewaukee tournament we will have it full. But the bottom line is, it is still open if you are interested. Pewaukee is a great muskie lake and the WMT will be making history there. To my knowledge, I don't beleive there has ever been a one day muskie tournament that has paid $10,000.00 to the 1st place team, nor has any tournament of any fresh water species paid out that amount. Thanks and hope to see ya there, Tom McInnis | |||
| LarryJones |
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Posts: 1247 Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | Tom, Quit skirting the ISSUE! Answer to all why you can't go to JUDGE BOAT'S???? Capt. Larry D.Jones | ||
| Shep |
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Posts: 5874 | Are you gonna volunteer to be in a judge boat, Larry? Are you gonna help line up the judge boats required for each tourney? This is a question that has been asked and answerred by Tom. If you don't like the answer, don't fish the tourney. It's as simple as that. | ||
| Mikes Extreme |
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Posts: 2691 Location: Pewaukee, Wisconsin | I am sure the local Muskie clubs would be glad to help out. I don't think getting judge boats would be a problem. For the PMTT on Pewaukee two years ago people were turned down because we had enough. Getting boats to judge is NOT a problem. Why would someone not want to be a judge boat? You get to see what the fish was caught on, where it was caught and talk to the fishermen as you wait to be called to do your work. If you call it work. Don't get me wrong it can be a pain in the a$$ if the weather is bad. What is the problem with getting them for the WMT? I bet I still could get it done for the Pewaukee WMT in May if someone makes the call to go to a judge boat tourny. I am offering !!! | ||
| nwild |
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Posts: 1996 Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | I too am offering my services for any of the tournaments in my area (Pelican and Boom). I am sure enough boats to cover these waters can be found before these tournies also. | ||
| LarryJones |
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Posts: 1247 Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | Shep, Part of the Entree Fee should be paying around $100 per boat to be a Judge Boat,or an amount should be donated to a local Muskies Inc. Chapter for them to suppy the Judge Boat's. Three Rivers Chaper of Muskies Inc. will run a Big Cash Tournament on Chautauqua Lake in NY,on July 19th & 20th.They took the steps to contact the Chautauqua Lake Musky Hunters Club,the local release club on the Lake,and will pay $100 to each Judge Boat. It is not hard to do! I will also be a Judge Boat for this Tournament,I will not be fishing it!It is Tom's call to have or to not have Judge Boat's period! Capt. Larry | ||
| esox420 |
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Posts: 57 Location: Winneconne, WI | I can't judge the Pewaukee WMT, but can judge any others that I'm open on. I'd even do it for free. | ||
| Shep |
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Posts: 5874 | Larry. I think Midget said it best. If the Wisconsin DNR allows it, and Tom wants to run it this way, then I guess it's going to be a transport tournament. The DNR says it is OK, so who are we to question what they say? We just got done with the spring hearing deal here, where everybody was singing the praises of our DNR, that they are the only ones we should trust with the welfare of our fish. Now, we are saying they don't know what's best, but we do? I'm confused. My point is, this is Tom's tournament. He runs it as he see's fit. That is his perogative. If someone does not like the transport tourneys, don't enter them. Much like you and your guide service. You run it they way you see fit. If someone doesn't like they way you do it, they won't hire you. You see it's very simple. Fish it, or don't. Or they can start their own tournament series, and run it the way they see fit. Mike, as far as talking to the contestants, I don't think that is the case. I judged with Jason at the Pewaukee PMTT. About all we could do was wave and say hello. This was in the breifing the night before. BTW, for those entrants who wish not to transport, the tourney officials WILL come out and do a water measure and release. At least they would last year. Edited by Shep 4/25/2003 3:03 PM | ||
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| To answer some of the concerns and questions some of the folks have about transport tournaments I will resumit an answer I gave on the Muskie Central message board on March 6,'03. I am glad you brought up the transport issue. Just to clearify, on smaller lakes we might only have one headquarters, but on larger lakes or chains we have as many as 4 headquarters and three chase(judge) boats. We do this in order to ensure that all transports are 10 minutes or less. When the W.M.T. first announced the circuit in 2001 there was a question by some concerned nuskie fishermen, who were unfamiliar with transport tournaments, about the safety of muskies in this type of format. Well now that can be answered. The W.M.T. has the best release percentage of any muskie tournament. It can now be said that the W.M.T. has a history, completing 2 years and 24 tornaments. To compare, most tournaments are single event tourneys with only one per year, so putting it into those terms, the W.M.T. has the equivalent of 24 years of tournaments. All tournament directors, organizers, sponsors, tournament anglers, and the general public would like for all tournaments to have 100% successful release rates but for circumstances not in controll of the tournament organizers or anglers, a certain percentage of fish will be hooked so badley that a successful release is impossible. Other circumstances exist that will also deem it impossible for a fish's successful release. To illustrate this, the Bassmasters Tournaments, with all their money, research and tools available to ensure a high percentage of releases has just under 3% of the bass register die. In my oppinion having a 97.1% survival is a great accomplishment and it is what all tournaments should strive for. Most walleye circuits have a 95.2% survival rate and they should be commended for their efforts. For muskie tournaments the two best run "immediate release tournaments" (I will not mention their names because I fish them and in no way do I want to appear bad mouthing them or drive others away from fishing these two fine events) have been in existence for a combined more than 15 years but no more than 25 years. One of the reasons I rate them to be the best run is because they are the only tournaments that utilize enough judge boats to adequately cover the lakes hosting their tourneys. One has judge boats at a rate of 1 judge boat per every 122 acres of water and the other 1 judge boat per every 167 acres of water, wich falls under the W.M.T. standards for "immediate release tournaments" of 1 judge boat per every 100 to 200 acres. These twoo tournaments have combined for 142 muskies with 4 dying in the longest running tournament and 2 muskies dying in the other for a combined 4.2% of the muskies dying or 85.8% successful release rate, a great rate and shows how good planning works. Three of the 6 muskie deths were contributed to the time spent waiting for a judge to get their fish measured, one was mine. The W.M.T. now with a history of 24 tournaments have the best release rate and the closest a tournament can get to 100% success. Unlike some other muskie tournaments, who for one reason or another, feel it nessassary to hide the facts to their tournament anglers and to the D.N.R how many muskies die in their tournaments, the W.M.T. announces it to our anglers and give the circumstances and fully reports it to the D.N.R. In 24 tournaments, we have registered over 160 muskies with only three dead for a 1.8% of the muskies dying or a whopping 98.2% survival rate that is sure to be the envy of bass, walleye and other tournaments. The reason the muskies died was not due to transport, all three took under 3 minutes, but was caused by how badly they were hooked. The majority of the muskies caught in the W.M.T. are transported in 3 minutes or less. The W.M.T.'s goal all along was to run the best tournaments, that would register a muskie in the shortest time, thus ensuring better releases and long term survival and we have succeeded. We utilize chase boat(s) at every tournament. We have tournament anglers wait for 15 minutes after the muskie has been released to ensure its survival, unlike "immediate relaese tournaments" that after the fish is released, both the judge boat and anglers boat speeds off immediately not caring to stay in the area to indeed check to ensure the survival or to protect the muskie from another boat running over it should it come back to the surface to rest. This is all too familar to me as once in a "immediate release tournament" I had a judge boat run over my muskie, needless to say the muskie didn't make it. This would never happen in a W.M.T. tournament. The W.M.T. has strict rules and procedures that have made it possible for us to be as close to perfect with releases as a tournament can get, and we will continue to implement them to ensure the safety of muskies registered in our tournaments even though they are not popular with some. Thanks for your reply and have a good one, Tom McInnis | |||
| LarryJones |
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Posts: 1247 Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | Tom, Yes,you are within the Law of Tournament DNR Regulations to run the WMT as you are presently.I would just say if it is better for the Musky to have a total Judge Boat Format,I just can't understand why you would not,especialy if you truely care about the Musky Fisheries as you say.I guess all I can say is that I will not travel to fish in any WMT Events under the present format and recomend others to not fish them as well. Everyone is entitled to their opinion,you have heard mine,thanks for taking the time to answer. Capt. Larry D. Jones | ||
| EViL0nE |
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Posts: 109 | HRm, I guess now I'm confused. If the transport format takes ~3minutes to get the fish registered and released and their death rate is extremely low what's the problem? Sure, it's going to stress the fish out. So if being trapped in a net for 2-3 minutes waiting for a judge boat to come over. I do not fish tournaments as this is my first year of muskie fishing. However, having kept aquarium fish for quite awhile and fishing for other species. I understand a bit of how stress affects fish and what causes stress to a fish. Neither option is great for the fish. The only good systems are either an on-your-honor measurements, a judge in each boat or requiring photographic evidence of each measurement. These will still cause stress as the fish must be measured and handled more than just removing hook and letting go. However there's really no benefit of strictly judge vs. transport as near as I can tell except being able to set your own min. size with the judge boats. If there's something I'm missing about what happens differently in one vs. the other that would affect the fish more feel free to inform me. I'll admit I know nothing about tournaments. | ||
| Don Pfeiffer |
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Posts: 929 Location: Rhinelander. | I have fished many transport tournaments and believe way too big a fuss is being made about them. I have a hard time recalling the last time a transport tournament I fished actually lost a fish. I agree I like the register boat format but would not let that issue make me not fish a tournament. Don Pfeiffer | ||
| Luke_Chinewalker |
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Location: Minneapolis, MN | Tom: Last year we happened to be on the lake the same day you were having the MadTown tournament. We were at the restaurant you were using as a judge station when a boat came in with a fish they said was caught in the hot water discharge. After a very long photo session and measure the fish was released right next to the boat in the channel. The fish headed out of the current up to the bank. Its protective slime turned a mungy gray color and the fish just sat there on the bottom. We left about 35 minutes later and the fish was still just sitting there much grayer in color. Should this fish have been taken from very warm water and released after an extended measure and photo session in water that was a significantly different temperature? I understand the PMTT will not allow boats to fish the discharge area this year. Will you also make the area off limits for your tournament? Edited by Luke_Chinewalker 4/29/2003 7:38 PM | ||
| Craig Eversoll |
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Posts: 188 Location: Madison, WI | As I said on this board when this came up last year, I strongly disagree with the methods the WMT uses for judging their tournament. I feel that transporting the fish amounts to additional handling of the fish and therefore presents additional and unnecessary risk to the resource. Other tournaments have proven that you can use judge boats. For the Madison WMT tournament last year I offered to round up volunteers from our local MI chapter to act as judge boats but I was told, in so many words, that judge boats were not necessary. Again, I strongly disagree. Because of this, I choose to not support the WMT and I encourage others to do the same. You can call that a boycott if you want – that’s your right just as it is my right to not support the WMT. That being said, I do not believe anyone who manages, fishes in or supports in any way the WMT has the demise of the muskie fishery as a goal. That just wouldn’t make sense. If you don’t like what they do, let them know, voice your opinion and vote with your absence. I’m all in favor staying out of a giant @#$#ing match with those who actually want the same end result, a quality muskie fishery, as I do. Craig Eversoll
Edited by Craig Eversoll 4/30/2003 12:19 PM | ||
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| Luke, I saw that muskie also and their was nothing unusual about its color. The muskie was caught in a foot of water and was resting in the same type of environment from where it was caught. I lived on Lake Monona for years and never saw such a cool spring as last year and by that time the muskies have vacated the warm water discharge. Since it happened once, the W.M.T. has made that area out of bounds and at last years tournament's awards ceremony, it was announced that it would be out of bounds in years to come. Craig, the W.M.T. utilizes the transports because it has been a proven method for more than two decades. On average, it takes less than half the time to get a muskie measured and released in a transport tournament than the so called "immediate release" tournament, thus eliminating excessive handling ensuring a successful release. I started fishing muskie tournaments in 1988 and 120 tournaments later, the major reason why most tournaments come and go is because it is hard to find people to help work them. Year after year, it is always the same folks who give their time and eventually they tire and interest is lost. Don Pfeiffer is absolutely correct. Very seldom do you see a muskie die in a transport tournament, conversely a disproportionately higher number of muskies die in the so called "immediate release" tournaments. There is nearly 5,000 muskie anglers in Wisconsin that fish in and support transport tournaments and if there is anyone that should have a say in weather or not transport tournaments work is them. Also Craig, talks of boycott is counter productive to your goals and mine. I know that there have been several anglers who are members of Capitol City MI. who have left their memberships expire or are planning to do so because of the chapters stance against transport tournaments. Also, I use to attend your annual April seminar and spend hundreds on raffle tickets in support, however because of what I deem as shortsightedness on a part of a few, I can not in all good conscience continue with my support. The spring seminar has always been a great time for me and I found it easy to convince others to join me there. I hope in the future that your chapter will go out of its way to poll anglers who fish transports and listen to what they have to say instead of treating them with disdain. Thanks and have a great season, Tom McInnis www.WMTseries.com | |||
| MRoberts |
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Posts: 714 Location: Rhinelander, WI | I would like to apologize for resurecting this, but I was going to be gone all weekend and didn’t want to respond to it when I first read it without being near a computer to read any responses. I have a couple questions for Tom, when you say, “….disproportionately higher numbers of muskies die in the so called “immediate release” tournaments.” What is your basis of fact? I would like to see the numbers that prove this. I don’t really want to debate which tourney style is better. Because I’ll tell you what I think is worse in my OPIONION. It is transport tournaments, but it has nothing to do with the actually transporting of the fish it has to do with certain people who run transport tournaments getting people all fired up to vote against progressive musky management because it MIGHT effects the way they run their event. I even heard and I don’t know wrote them, but there where scare tactic letters written to tournaments directors state wide telling them the WDNR’s proposed rule changes would kill their tournaments. That is why transport tourneys are bad for musky fishermen in Wisconsin. The guys at Rollie and Helen’s where all for these 50" changes and where on TV saying so. And they have three events a year on one of the proposed waters. That all being said I’m still on the fence weather I’ll ever fish a transport tourney again. I’ll for sure talk to the people running the event first and get a feel for their attitude, but I know what events I wont fish. And Craig, email me a Cap. City MI membership form. I have let my membership laps the last year, and I would be glad to join the Cap City Chapter when I rejoin. Because I know you well enough and I know you GET IT!!! Hope you had a great opener. Nail a Pig! Mike Edited by MRoberts 5/5/2003 10:38 PM | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32887 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Mike, Here is a link to what the DNR had to say about the vote so far. I can pretty much guarantee the vote was not that lopsided because of ANY tourney promoter, chamber of commerce, or PC/not PC person. The majority of the sportsmen and women who showed up to vote were concerned, as you will be able to see from the article. The proposal formed last fall in late October/early November. There was not enough time for the DNR, special interest groups ( like us) and other interested parties to properly educate the general public as to what the proposals would mean, how the fisheries would be managed, and what the overall impact might be. There specifically was not enough time for proper public debate, or a forum that reached enough of the public to generate any actual public commentary prior to the vote. I spoke with the DNR in Madison, and that is also what they feel was the single factor that caused the vote to be so overwhelmingly lopsided, and the turnout so light. This didn't happen because of clandestine letters. It happened because the proposal was not properly presented to the general public at best, or because the public plain doesn't agree with the proposal's goals at all, at worst. I expect there will be a more targeted approach to the issue from the DNR next year if the Secretary feels that the opinions of the Muskie angler in the State warrant another run at a Trophy Management Proposal. http://www.wisconsinoutdoornews.com/WISCONSINOUTDOORNEWS/myarticles.asp?P=749929&S=565&PubID=10628
As far as whether one supports or doesn't support any tournament whether it is a transport or boatside release event, one can easily do that by fishing the ones one supports, and not fishing events one does not. If the general fishing public agrees with one's views, then the event one chooses not to fish will fold up. If not, then the debate will continue! | ||
| MRoberts |
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Posts: 714 Location: Rhinelander, WI | Steve, your right and we have beaten that decaying horse. What we are talking about here is which is better for the fishery, transport tourneys or immediate release tourneys. In MY opinion, immediate release tourneys are better because they don’t pit musky fisherman against musky fisherman in a debate over trophy size limits. In this debate, trophy size limits only have a negative effect on transport tourneys. There was at least 5 people , I know of, out of 90 at the Oneida meeting voting against the proposal because they fish in or run a transport tourney and they didn’t want to have to change things. Every vote counts and this is the issue this thread is addressing. Regarding the actual vote, my friends and I have talked this over and over and we all agree that loosing this would be much easier to stomach if there was more honesty involved. Rather than the bar stool biology B.S., it would be nice to here people say “you know what we want to keep fish under 50 inches and we have clients that want to keep fish. Or this would require us to change the way we run our tourneys, it will cost more money, so we are voting it down. Even with out the people feeding the line of B.S. this proposal probably still would have lost because of lack of proper education and the total negative feelings in the state over any new more restrictive regs, but it would have been much easier to handle. Nail A Pig! Mike | ||
| Craig Eversoll |
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Posts: 188 Location: Madison, WI | Tom, Over the past two years worth of discussion about this topic I have always tried to remain cool calm and collected but now, well... your ability to come up with these "facts" has gone too far! 1) "the W.M.T. utilizes the transports because it has been a proven method for more than two decades"... Proven by whom? Don't tell me that just because there have had transport tournaments for two decades that proves anything. Last year one of the "facts-du-jour" was that, in the summer time the surface of the lakes were depleted of oxygen and therefore releasing a muskie into such a poor environment was detrimental to their health. According a fisheries biologist that I spoke to, (insert "FACT ALERT" here) the surface of fertile lakes all have an oxygen abundance in the summer. Then you lumped me in with "talks of boycott"??? Re-read my post and you'll see I never said I was boycotting anything. You seem to be suggesting that if I don't support your tournament then I am against the well-being of the sport! I'm afraid I don't follow that. Just so everyone isn't misled here, my comments regarding this subject are not and have never been sponsored by Cap City MI. CCMI has never taken a "stance against transport tournaments". In fact, when I brought it to the attention of the board last year I was told that if I chose to offer the WMT volunteer judge boats for the local event that was my right but that it was not a CCMI sponsored activity. I happen to agree with the boards approach. And for all you CCMI members (or anyone for that matter) that plan on fishing ANY WMT event this year, I wish you the best of luck. I hope you "hang a hog". I'm sorry if you consider that "disdain". If you are a CCMI member and have been treated poorly by the board or any of the officers I would like to hear from you. It's a B.S. statement Tom and you know it. NONE OF OUR MEMBERS HAVE BEEN TREATED WITH DISDAIN FOR FISHING ANY TOURNAMENT. Another FYI: The attendance at this year's Spring Seminar was an all time high. I'm sorry you missed it. Stop twisting the truth and heaving around innuendo, it is counter productive to your goals and mine. Sincerely, Craig Eversoll | ||
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