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Posts: 2894
Location: Yahara River Chain | TC MUSKIE - 3/26/2013 9:17 PM
What's a good size split ring to put on the nose of all baits?
Size 7. If the eye is large enough to allow free movement I use a triple ring. On small baits I will use a size 5 |
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Posts: 209
| Brad P - 3/25/2013 2:37 PM
Here is a valid reason to use it after dark: Want to use all black baits, like a slow rolled all black Super Model? Using the wind-on leader, the sound change of the leader ticking your rod guides tells you when to inititate your figure 8. You can initiate the 8 the same way every time just by sound. It seems stupid, but that little reminder is a great way to tighten up the transition to your 8, especially when the day runs long and you lose focus. No other leader I know of can do that.
You can do the same thing with a slip-bobber tie about 3 feet above your leader. |
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Location: Sawyer County, WI |
I agree with many of the points made earlier that fluorocarbon, single strand, and seven strand all have proper applications and the wise fisherman applies the right tool for the job. I admittedly use fluorocarbon more often than steel with the exception of a glider set up. This is probably due in large to the fact that I've had good success with fluorocarbon and to be honest some degree of laziness to retie and go with steel in borderline conditions.
Going back to the original post, did we really "see" the leader fail ? I'm not sure I did. I saw an apparent fish on, then nothing, then two disappointed looking fisherman, then one of them holding what appeared to be a leader snapped in half.
Perhaps I'm just too cynical but can you ever be sure of what is seen on TV ? Was it real or was it scripted to make for a better show ? One thing I'm sure I didn't see is the fishermen immediately switching to steel leaders immediately after the "failure". In fishing tournaments where every fish counts (except for the 27 incher that did manage to hit the bottom of the net) I'm sure I would have switched to steel, despite my self confessed over reliance on fluoro. Something to think about anyway...
btfish - 3/25/2013 4:53 AM
Did any body see the Florocarbon Leader fail on Key's outdoors yesterday? I know there is another post on here regrading this but it really makes a guy think twice.
They don't give a lot of details, I wonder what happened? |
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Posts: 416
Location: Madtown, WI | I have never had any of my own single strand, seven strand, 130# mono, #120 fluoro, or toothy critter leaders fail. I make all my own leaders so that at the first sign of failure, I replace them out for just a few pennies....
I have had both mono and fluoro leaders get extremely frayed up after catching a fish.... never seen that happen with wire nor do I understand the benefit of using them, especially in the algae stained lakes that I fish. The only time I use fluoro is sucker fishing when chances of the fish hitting the leader are slim to none. If the fish swallows the entire rig past the leader, well that fish is likely sol anyways. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | we seem to have the fluoro vs steel argument about as often as the trolling suckers argument... ; )
i've been using and making 180 lb fluoro for many many years, i'd say all totaled has to be 2000+ fish on them between me and my buds...maybe more, don't keep track, one thing i am sure of is there have been zero bite offs or failures...
i'll keep using them...use what you have confidence in and use what works.
period. |
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Posts: 91
| Amen! |
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Posts: 791
Location: North Central IL USA | Jeff Hanson - 3/25/2013 8:38 AM
muskie nut: leaders and lures leaders are far from the best
What do you use? |
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| BNelson's 180 fluoro are all I have used for 6+ years. Zero failures. |
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Posts: 285
Location: NE Wisconsin | No bite off here!
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Posts: 944
| gregk
I use Stealth Tackles 174# Straight wire leaders for all my jerbaits, twitch baits and rubber.
Never had a problem ever.
Jeff Hanson
madisonmuskyguide.com |
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Location: 31 | Johnnie - 3/28/2013 6:22 AM No bite off here! I've certainly used fluorocarbon for trolling and have never had a bite off either, but then again I’ve never had a fish take the head of the bait deep in its mouth exposing the fluorocarbon to the large teeth on the side like what "might" have happened on Key’s outdoors either.
I do remember a few being close like that one though Johnnie, and to me it just boils down to common sense and awareness… if you can cut it with a knife you are running the risk of losing a fish with small lures or jerk baits if the leader gets pressure from those larger teeth. So I would never consider using it myself casting a bulldog, but I was still considering using it trolling with large lures as I previously mentioned.
What changed my mind are these first-hand accounts and the 80 lb fluorocarbon/80 lb super line test I conducted; it only took moderate pressure (no slice) from a razor blade for the 80 lb, and the 180 lb was easily sliced in two with one pass. So to me, it really has nothing to do with who makes the leader because any leader made out of fluorocarbon would have had the same problem as jfreborg, ProFishermanJones, and Big Rock when they claimed they were bitten off. Without a doubt, smaller fish cannot take the entire lure in their mouth like a large fish, so if you're mainly catching fish that are under 45”... I would venture a guess that there's less risk of a bite off than someone who's mainly catching/targeting fish over 45”.
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Posts: 2014
| Jerry,
Next time you catch a large muskie, try and cut a fluorocarbon leader on the side of one of those big teeth you mention, you will have more success with a butter knife. |
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Location: 31 | IAJustin - 3/29/2013 11:40 AM Jerry, Next time you catch a large muskie, try and cut a fluorocarbon leader on the side of one of those big teeth you mention, you will have more success with a butter knife. Good idea, I'll try to remember to try it on a few fish this summer, maybe even do a video... should be interesting research. Have you tested this? Because those large teeth are very sharp, I honestly can't see how a butter knife would cut better. What's your take is on the posts from jfreborg, ProFishermanJones, and Big Rock? |
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Posts: 2014
| I have, I have a musky skull, the point of the tooth is what is sharp, but large Fluoro deflects off the point of the tooth making even putting nicks in the leader difficult. I can't speak of others experience, but I can't get fluoro to fail after 100's of muskie's dozens over 48" - its all I've used since 2004. Maybe even more amazing is I've done, 2 fly-in pike trips with part of the intent to see if I could get flouro to fail. Over 600 pike in 14 days, over 200 38"+ and I could not get 100lb flouro to fail. (I only use 130lb and 180lb for muskies) Sometimes you would have to change the 100lb leader after 4-5 fish, but more commonly it took 20+ fish, to even start to make the leader unfishable. I was using 6" soft platics and 5-6" flies, the pike would engulf the entire bait. I say use what you have confidence in. Many saltwater fish (serrated, scissor like teeth) go through fluorocarbon like butter, muskies and pike teeth are nothing like a razor blade. My 2 cents. |
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| I have caught over 200+ muskies with fish as long as 54.5" on floro leaders. I have never had a failure. I am very picky with my leaders though...if there is even a slight nick in the floro, I switch it out with a brand new one. I will not use any floro. leaders under 130 lb. test and I will only use Stealth. BNelson makes some good quality leaders as well. With that said, I've never had a failure on any kind of leader. I am constantly checking my leaders and if I have any kind of doubt that a leader might not hold up, it's coming off for a new one. |
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Location: 31 |
little one - 3/25/2013 6:40 PM what about using a 3" piece of wire in front of the flouro like Greg Thomas uses? I have used this system for 3 years with no issues. couple feet of flouro tied directly to my main line I have very limited experience with fluorocarbon, and then only for trolling... but I must say that I liked it except for being nervous about the bite off possibility. I seriously doubt I'll ever use it for casting, but might reconsider using it for trolling after I do some tests with it on actual fish (in the net) this summer. It seems that everyone with experience agrees that the minimum pound test for muskies should be 130 lb, with 180 lb better for the people reading this with limited experience. I'm really not trying to be a smartalec here… but I am a little curious why a guy like Thomas puts a piece of wire in front of his fluorocarbon? |
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Posts: 1243
Location: Musky Tackle Online, MN | Jerry Newman - 3/30/2013 11:55 AM
I'm really not trying to be a smartalec here… but I am a little curious why a guy like Thomas puts a piece of wire in front of his fluorocarbon?
Fair question for sure. It's because he's not using heavier fluoro. For that system to work, you have to use lighter fluorocarbon (80# is the max that Gregg has found will work) because it is designed to go through the rod tip. Heavier fluoro and the knot will be too large and either cause damage to the rod guide or not go through it. If he was able to use heavier fluoro, I'm sure he would eliminate the wire.
Aaron |
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| These Thomas hybrid leaders seem designed solely to counter the issue of "line-shy" fish. 80# fluoro is (most people in this thread seem to agree) not really an impediment to a muskie's teeth; the bite-proof aspect of the hybrid leader is the 4" steel portion.
The difference between using this hybrid leader and directly tying a 4" steel leader to 100# braid is the visibility factor of the braid.
This hybrid leader is an interesting and useful innovation to be sure, but for situations where one is not concerned that a fish will be shy of 100# braid, why not skip the fluoro and use a 4" steel leader. Seems easier. I must be missing something here.
"The Hybrid Leader System incorporates a 3 foot section of 80lb. fluorocarbon line tied directly to your main line with a double uni knot. The double uni knot is an extremely strong, but simple knot to tie. Instructions for tying this knot will be printed on the back of the packaging. The other end of the fluorocarbon line has a solid 4 inch wire leader accompanied by a #5 Stringease Stay Lok Snap which allows you to quickly and easily attach your lure of choice." http://www.stealthtackle.net/fishing_leaders.shtml |
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Location: 31 | AWH, That explanation makes sense; although in the video with Bob T, his system (that is pretty involved and not rigged on the water) uses a 130-150 lb fluorocarbon, yet I can understand that 80 lb might be max for system with a knot. Interesting stuff forsure!
Guest, it could be leader shy, and it could be to protect the fish when it rolls up in the line… or a combination of both. Either way, I think this kind of puts an exclamation point on 80 lb fluorocarbon being too light for muskies (without a wire lead), and with some intelligent dialogue we've increased awareness and think there's a better overall understanding now thanks to everyone who chimed in. I'll do my little research project on some actual muskies this summer, and report back with the results if anyone else is interested. |
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Posts: 909
| Big Rock - 3/25/2013 9:38 PM
I have had several fish boat side cut floro like butter on the hookset. Its not on my line anymore. Anything can fail, less likely with wire.
"SEVERAL" Youy wouldn't happen to tie your own would you? Just sayin! Most people never have problems and you've had "SEVERAL"
BRIAN  |
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Posts: 189
Location: Barrington, Il | Gregg's leader with the knot is to help know when to start your figure 8. Primarly for inexperienced fisherpeople at night. |
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Posts: 284
Location: Eagan, MN | I've had two failures in perhaps 400 fish or so: one on 80lb flouro early in the flouro days and one on 200lb flouro. The 200lb was sliced thru on the hookset on about a 45" fish with almost no tension (the rod hardly loaded). The 80lb broke on a whale of a Mille Lacs fish, which was thrashing side to side under great pressure. I still use flouro because I've had several failures while using steel leaders as well: two where the leader loop attached to the split ring failed due to metal fatigue, one in which the wire bent severly and came back with an open snap, and one in which the fish jumped into the line, cutting the line on impact with the water, taking the metal leader and lure with her. Based on my own personal experiences, I felt that steel was no insurance against lost fish due to the use of metal vs. flouro. I tend to think that there is something to the earlier post speculating that fast, hard hooksets with flouro could be the culprit in some of these bite offs. It seemed to be on one of the ones I encountered. Brian |
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