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| Message Subject: Is dragging suckers the same as trolling? | |||
C_Nelson |
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Posts: 578 Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI | . Edited by C_Nelson 6/7/2008 8:50 AM | ||
| former warden |
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| This rule is actually very simple...think about the intention. Don't try to figure out how can I get around it, really think about what it means. Some comments I have heard "I will fight it and win" remember ignorance is no excuse. If you don't really understand the meaning, ASK. My comment about the bobber was to point out if your bobber is siting in the water and you are running full speed around the lake with the reel on free spool, you are not trolling. If you are fishing into the wind pulling a sucker, you are trolling. If you think just because your line is vertical you are not trolling, you are wrong. If that is the case people could use downriggers and say their line is vertical where it enters the water or use 10 lbs of weight so the line is vertical. Each warden has some interpretation of what he or she will allow. Truthfully, some Vilas and Ondeida County wardens are very, very, very lenient. They could write tickets all day long. Some wardens should not be wardens but they are. This is unfortunate, I guess is why I got out. | |||
| BNelson |
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Location: Contrarian Island | to me it's kind of like a state patrol officer not giving out a ticket for someone going 5mph over...could he? sure but c'mon... guys like me that are not really "trolling" suckers around on bobbers, lines vertical with quick strikes and releasing all fish are doing much less harm to the fisheries than guys I see at some of the lakes I fish with rods on the pier, sucker way out on a bobber...and sitting inside waiting for it to go down...swallow rigs = DEAD fish...with the size limit at 40 they are potentially killing fish under 40" that swallow the rig..sure I might be bending or even breaking the law and the warden could be leniant with me...but I might drive 5 over a lot too and not even get a 2nd glance by a cop... the law is not doing much good imo.... Edited by MSKY HNR 10/26/2007 9:56 AM | ||
| MRoberts |
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Posts: 714 Location: Rhinelander, WI | Hey, as has been said before this has been discussed many times over the year. I believe it is a good discussion and one we should have every year. As it is a very confusing issue. The following are two items I have run across in the years as this topic has gone round and round for those new to this discussion this may be of some use. The following isn’t anymore LAW than what has already been written here but it may help you get some background when trying to decide what you want to do on the water. As far as calling the TIP line when someone is doing something YOU feel is not within the law, consider how ambiguous the law is and you better be darn sure you are 100% within the law or that warden, you just called to the lake, could also end up giving you a citation. Different people will push this law to different areas, but when it’s as grey as this it’s up to the warden to make the final call, and then a judge or jury if you have the time and money to take it that far. By the way Guide Greg Bohn did exactly that 5 to 10 years ago and won, and many consider what he was doing to be actual trolling, Unbenounced to him he had two undercover wardens IN the boat with him at the time of violation AND STILL WON because of the position fishing rule problems. After that ruling, at a sports show, one of the Linder boys said Wisconsin anglers should band together and all start dragging live bait rigs and make that ruling stand as precedence statewide the next season. It didn’t happen and we still have the problems described in this post. So make your own decision on the water but here are a couple of items that may help you understand the intent of this law that was created when Back Trolling was eliminated. What was the original intent of the position fishing law? It appears to me that that has been lost in the last 10 or 15 years. If wardens wrote tickets based on intent I think it would be clear that what most are doing would be legal bobber or no bobber. Position Fishing: What You Can Do (From a 1994 Issue of Wisconsin Outdoor Journal) In case you blinked and missed it, during the past fall and winter the practice of backtrolling was deemed unsavory and a detriment to sportfishing in Wisconsin. Through a rapid political process, backtrolling was banned and was replaced by "position fishing" on state waters not previously open to forward trolling. Just what is position fishing and what will be allowable under it? Don't look in the 1994 fishing regulations pamphlet for an explanation. It was printed before backtrolling was banned and therefore states that it is still legal. It is not. In a nutshell, position fishing allows for the use of either an electric or combustion motor to move a boat either forward or backward to position an angler's line. The line must remain in a near-vertical state. Since the new law does not state how much a boat can be moved or how "vertical" the line must be to be considered vertical, some have questioned if the law can even be enforced, or at least enforced consistently from warden to warden. For further explanation, Wisconsin Outdoor Journal contacted DNR Bureau of Law Enforcement Director Ralph Christensen. He initially referred to a letter he wrote to State Rep. Jim Holperin, who had also asked for clarification of the new law. In the letter, Christensen said: " ...I am of the opinion that some lateral movement under power will also be acceptable ... occasional momentary deviation from vertical lines is expected and would not constitute a violation of this rule." The letter continued: "Our policy would be that uninterrupted lateral movement for up to several minutes may occasionally be necessary to reposition a fishing boat ... "Assuming that you aren't simply 'trolling' them, your Lindy Rigs or bottom bouncers can be fished consistent with the spirit of the position fishing rule." Christensen told WOJ the new rule allows for position fishing of large suckers for muskies. Some musky anglers have used rigs similar to Lindy Rigs (a commercial name that has become synonymous with live bait rigs using a slip sinker designed to move snagfree along the bottom) in recent years to work suckers along structure. Another practice that would become legal, Christensen said, would be musky anglers' use of sucker-baited lines while casting with another rod. Sometimes called "floating," the technique was popular with anglers whose boats were drifting or moving backward but became illegal if a trolling motor was used to reposition the boat in a forward direction. "If (the lines) are just hanging over the side in this vertical application, it would be legal," he said. Finally, Christensen was asked about the legality of bobber rigs while position fishing. Some resort owners have said their elderly guests, who cannot fish by conventional methods, have begun fishing minnow-baited lines beneath bobbers while using an electric motor to move slowly along the shallows in search of panfish. The resort owners were concerned the new law would prohibit this practice, but Christensen allayed those fears. "In that context, you could pull a bobber around for a little ways and then sit still," he said. If wardens enforce position fishing in the manner described here, then the new rule will do what it was intended to do CC ban trolling for muskies with planer boards and downriggers while allowing anglers to use their boat as a tool to position their lines. Christensen said he is asking game wardens to "consider the whole set of circumstances" before issuing a citation. "If we believe people are trying to get around the spirit of the law, then we'll take action," he said. I'm not alone in my belief that the new position fishing rule will be a headache for many people this open water season. Time will tell. Clarification on Position fishing from a user info request to the Wisconsin DNR. Date & User unknown. Dear User: Position fishing is a style of fishing where anglers may maneuver their boat, by a motor, in such a way that allows them to vertically jig lures or still fish with live bait. Boat movements are generally not continuous in a relatively consistent direction, rather the motor is used to maintain the position of the boat over a location or bottom structure. EXAMPLES - Under this definition, You MAY do any of the following: 1) Use your motor to slowly move around specific structure, fishing with bottom bouncers fished in a vertical or near-vertical presentation; 2) Use your motor to move around specific structure, vertically jigging for fish; 3) Re-position your boat while still fishing with a bobber; 4) Move or reposition your boat to maintain your position around a specific location. Occasional deviation from a completely vertical presentation of the fishing lines is expected and allowed. Under this definition, you MAY NOT do any of the following: 1) Play out and trail lines from the boat while moving across the lake in a consistent, uninterrupted manner; 2) Use downriggers or planer boards to trail livebait or artificial lures while operating a motor; or 3) Trail a minnow behind the boat while casting an artificial lure with uninterrupted use of a motor; The key in interpreting this rule is a consistent application and understanding of "uninterrupted", which is, of course, difficult!. In my experience, while moving along a weedline, rock bar, point, etc., casting an artificial lure for muskies, the motor is only used to slowly move along the area being fished and it is also helpful for maintaining a desired distance away from the area you are fishing. However, while you may legally cast and retrieve with uninterrupted use of the motor, in my experience, that usually means using an electric motor in bursts for less than about 30 seconds at a time. My interpretation would be that you may trail a sucker on a second rod while casting and moving along the shoreline, etc., as long as you only occasionally reposition the boat and move slowly along the area being fished, with "short" bursts of an electric motor. Constant, uninterrupted use of the motor (for example, to move to or approach another fishing area with more than about 1 minute of uninterrupted motor use) would require that the sucker be removed from the water before proceeding. A general rule of thumb would be that your motor should be off for more time than it is on while the sucker is in the water. Conversely, if your motor is running more often than not while that sucker is in the water, you should pull the sucker in! Sincerely, Monique Currie Wisconsin DNR | ||
| MRoberts |
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Posts: 714 Location: Rhinelander, WI | O-yea the idea of allowing trolling with two lines after September 1 is great but that does nothing for the walleye anglers that want to fish lindy rigs deep during mid summer. The position fishing law was intended to allow that as well as sucker fishing. We as musky fishermen can't loose site of other anglers, we can accomplish much more working all together. To me a simpler fix would be a rule that allowed trolling with electric motors only, under a certain horsepower or thrust, with no down riggers or planner boards. That would satisfy the “intent” as described by Mr. Christensen, wouldn’t it. It would sure make enforcement much easier. What would be the downsides, I am sure there are some? Nail A Pig! Mike | ||
| C_Nelson |
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Posts: 578 Location: Sheboygan Falls, WI | . Edited by C_Nelson 6/7/2008 8:50 AM | ||
| MuskyTime |
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Posts: 331 Location: Stevens Point, Wisconsin | Mike, Great post! I was looking in my files for this article and glad you posted it here. I believe you are correct when saying that the original intent of the law has been lost over the years. I know Steve Heiting actually keeps a copy of the above article with him when he is fishing suckers to show wardens if he is stopped. Chuck, This is the article that I spoke of! Ed | ||
| esoxcpr |
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Posts: 149 | This is all pretty much a moot point with the emergency NRB ruling Wednesday evening that applies the emergency VHS live bait rules for anglers and bait dealers to ALL waters of the state. Sucker fishing in Wisconsin will very shortly be a thing of the past that you can tell your grandchildren was allowed 'back in the good old days'. http://dnr.wi.gov/org/caer/ce/news/rbnews/BreakingNews_Lookup.asp?i... Edited by esoxcpr 10/26/2007 2:56 PM | ||
| MuskyTime |
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Posts: 331 Location: Stevens Point, Wisconsin | So how do you figure this would stop the use of fishing with suckers? Ed | ||
| esoxcpr |
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Posts: 149 | What the new rules will do is make it extremely difficult for any bait dealers to catch suckers and get them to market and be profitable doing so. It also makes it very difficult for anglers. First off, under the new rules all anglers before they leave any Wisconsin water body, must drain their boats and make sure all fish leaving the lake are dead, including left over bait minnows. No keeping live suckers (or minnows) to take to the next lake. New suckers (or minnows) will have to be bought between each lake for use on the new water body. All bait dealers (not just those who gather in VHS positive waters as before) will now also have to jump through very specific (and potentially very expensive) hoops just to gather and raise their product and get it to market. Getting permits, record keeping, expensive testing and decontamination procedures will now have to be followed for all bait gathered, raised and transported statewide, not just in VHS waters as before. Trust me, this is but the first step to an eventual total ban on using live fish for bait. | ||
| MuskyTime |
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Posts: 331 Location: Stevens Point, Wisconsin | From what I understand bait dealers are already having to have their bait quarantined and tested for 60 days. I might be wrong on that but the bait shops that I talked with said that the wholesalers that they were dealing with were under these restrictions already. As for having to kill suckers that are left over at the end of the day. You could get around that by keeping suckers in a cooler in your vehicle and only take a few out in the boat with you. How the DNR will be able to enforce this across the entire state at 10,000 boat landings will be interesting. Besides that most of us already drain our live wells and bait wells when leaving the lake anyway. Time will tell I guess. Ed | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32924 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | It's a stupid law, and needs to be changed. The only reason we can't troll up here, IMHO, is 'tradition'. By the way, Greg's case was not what I would consider a test case for this issue. He was using a cavitation plate mounted electric motor to 'assist' in row trolling, a totally different issue as I understand things. | ||
| Dave N |
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Posts: 178 | STEVE WORRAL: It's a stupid law, and needs to be changed. The only reason we can't troll up here, IMHO, is 'tradition'. DAVE: Amen, Steve. Motor trolling shouldn't be immoral, unethical, or ambiguously illegal in Wisconsin while it continues to be a legal part of our fishing tradition almost everyplace else in the country. In your opinion, how do we get Wisconsin on the same page with the rest of the nation on this? Dave Neuswanger Fisheries Team Leader, Upper Chippewa Basin Wisconsin DNR, Hayward | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32924 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Dave, I think it goes to the same issues as black powder hunting for deer, deer season extensions, and the like. It was not easy to get a Black Powder season for deer. Tradition is hard to beat up here, even if there is no real reason for the issue at hand. This, like ALL management issues in WI is blocked from consideration by social hurdles more than anything else, IMHO. Education as to the actual biological impact of trolling, and a campaign with good grass roots support to bring the facts to the public. I know that sounds like a broken record from me, but it's a fact we have a very odd way of getting things done in the out of doors regulations category in this state. One can be 'correct/right' all the way around and fail to get the kind of attention needed to implement change; even if it's absolutely positive in implication. (loaded statement, there) I'm in if anyone else wants to join me in a 'crusade' to get this changed. At the very least there needs to be consideration for possible 'lake classifications' that allow trolling on the larger lakes, say 500 acres or more. I understand the concerns of those who fish the tiny lakes up here and are afraid of the trollers. Maybe with concessions on all sides something might be done. | ||
| MRoberts |
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Posts: 714 Location: Rhinelander, WI | Steve, I have heard the same thing about Bohn’s case, but either way the position fishing rule was the out, even when he had two wardens in the boat witnessing his row trolling power assist. The way I remember the story is he was row trolling up a break then pulled the ors in and used the eclectic only to go out and around a couple boats anchored on the break. The entire time still trolling the lures. I don’t know the complete facts of the case as to weather the ors where just for show and the electric was running the entire time or if that was the only time the electric was used. But either way it shows the giant problems with the current rule which we all agree on. As far as legalizing trolling a number of things should be considered in my opinion: Tradition is a major factor as you stated. With the spring hearings a major part of any regulation change it can’t be left out. Backtrolling was eliminated for a few reasons. 1st The Wisconsin Fishing Traditionalist had a major problem with the success a number of guys where having once they figured out how to backtroll effectively. They thought two few people where catching and keeping, at the time, to large a percentage of the big fish. 2nd Many people had problems with the wide spread of lines guys where using while backtrolling once people started figuring out how to use planer boards and down riggers even on the many small N. WI waters. 3rd backtrolling effectively made the “Tradition” of trailing a sucker while casting illegal unless the boat was moving backwards. There for the “Traditionalists” who where not in favor of backtrolling in the first place had to resort to backtrolling to fish sucker the way they always had in the past. And they WERE NOT HAPPY from the very beginning. Things to think about when looking at a WI inland water trolling rule change. 1-One line rule would be great, but right off the bat it would anger the people that want to cast and trail a sucker in the fall. These are many of the people who would probable vote for the change, and WONT because it eliminates a very fun and effective way to fish in the fall. 2-The fear of mixed use confrontations. If it passes with the three lines/angler many would be again concerned about the large wide spread of lines interfering with the casters and bobber watchers. Especially on small waters. Limiting the size of lakes or having step down rules may effectively battle this. Say no planner boards or down riggers on lakes smaller than a certain size. Or limit the number of rods per boat, not per angler, then you get around the problems I outlined in #1. 3-It’s just another technique, no more effective or damaging than any other technique. That needs to be made clear. Walleye anglers will want this as much if not more than musky fishermen that can be used to gain widespread support. Gary Michelson (I think that’s his name) from Lake Tomahawk Taxidermy once told me he was part of the group that got backtrolling outlawed he may be a good person to talk to in an effort to find out the background and what would be acceptable to that group of people. Something needs to change, to many people are being made to feel guilty of doing something that could or couldn’t be wrong based on that days interpretation. It’s not a good way to treat people that generally have the best interest of the fishery at heart. Nail A Pig! Mike | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32924 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Mike, You up for another 'project'? I'll take on the writing and compilation portion of this one if you want to dive in and do the magic you do with contacts. | ||
| ricepicker |
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| Steve, I'm on your side and will help with this. I was thinking along the language that exists for fishermen with the medical documentation that allows trolling with an electric motor only. I know that there would be some abuse, but it would be a start. There are so many elderly fishermen out there that simply cannot cast any more, yet would welcome a chance to fight another musky. The DNR is supposed to work for us, and I believe this group of fisherpersons can get it done. Look what was accomplished with Pelican Lake! | |||
| UKMICK |
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Posts: 30 Location: England | Amazing. We have very similar arguments on this side of the Atlantic. Anyone tried using a bobber & floating braid, use the wind to drift it where you want it to go? | ||
| Stump |
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| I just got nailed with a $208 fine for basically position fishing with my trolling motor. My son had a sucker soaking out the back of my boat, while I tried to get around a point in 20 knot winds. I was told, "the only legal way to do it is to put the sucker in the live well, when the trolling motor is in the water." All this, while another fisherman was soaking 2 suckers while circling the lake. Makes no sense. | |||
| TJ DeVoe |
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Posts: 2323 Location: Stevens Point, WI | Stump, were you using your trolling motor while trying to go around the island? | ||
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