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Location: MPLS, MN | I'd just lie and still go back to their spots. If something got damaged I'd call the cops and my insurance. My interest in fishing out east has greatly decreased. If I have spend that kind of money just to catch a fish I might as well go somewhere exotic like Dorado in Argentina not the Northeast so I have a little better chance .of catching a Muskie a few inches longer than I can in MN. I can get fat 50+"ers here with friendly helpful guides |
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Posts: 431
| Barring any drastic turn of events, this thread has killed my desire to go "east" to get a musky guide. If it has come to the point that an "angler" is paying to "use" the guides spots for 1 day (on public water I might add), this sport has turned into a canned experience. What gives the guides any right to even request that clients stay off the water? I guess if the guides at issue have developed a niche in the musky guide market with enough clients to support such a system, more power to them. I for one will not be among their clients, as this is not the kind of experience that I desire. |
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Location: Rhinelander. | Norm and extreme did say it well. I add this one thing. I tell them to bring there own raingear. I don't want the job of picking one up in every size and then be blamed for not haveing good suits if they get wet. Bring your own rainsuit my one big syipulation. Of cours no beer or booze in the boat the other.
PFeiff |
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Location: The desert | momuskies - 2/25/2008 8:54 PM
Barring any drastic turn of events, this thread has killed my desire to go "east" to get a musky guide. If it has come to the point that an "angler" is paying to "use" the guides spots for 1 day (on public water I might add), this sport has turned into a canned experience. What gives the guides any right to even request that clients stay off the water? I guess if the guides at issue have developed a niche in the musky guide market with enough clients to support such a system, more power to them. I for one will not be among their clients, as this is not the kind of experience that I desire.
Not trying to be a knob here, but do you guys actually read all the posts in this thread? If not, go back and READ Richard Collin's post, he CLEARLY explains some things about the East. |
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| I will add that the policy of these guides is a highly influenced by the local folks. In this area English is not the language spoken. Some of the people in these areas do not even speak English. They do not want tourist for numerous reasons, I am sure some of it is from previous experiences. They set the tone that the guides to an extent follow in order to be able to guide without having to answer to the wrath. Even if a guide did not mind if someone came back, they would not be able to guide under those circumstances. Either way it has made for an incredible fishery that is highly managed.... |
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Location: Mt. Zion, IL | If I am paying that kind of money, you can guarantee I will fish that water. That to me is the price you pay as a guide. I will travel to LOTW or out "East" but it will not be a regular thing. If I am told not to fish spots, I would simply laugh on the inside. Richard's post does not do anything for me except state that SOME guides may slash your tires for fishing "their" water. Last I checked no one owned any portion of the water; that is why ramps are public. In the event that any of my equipment/vehicle is damaged, the police will be involved 100%. I completely agree with momuskies. I am not paying 500 bucks to exchange stories. I can go to the local tackle shop and do that. |
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| RyanJoz - 2/25/2008 11:37 PM
If I am paying that kind of money, you can guarantee I will fish that water. That to me is the price you pay as a guide. I will travel to LOTW or out "East" but it will not be a regular thing. If I am told not to fish spots, I would simply laugh on the inside. Richard's post does not do anything for me except state that SOME guides may slash your tires for fishing "their" water. Last I checked no one owned any portion of the water; that is why ramps are public. In the event that any of my equipment/vehicle is damaged, the police will be involved 100%. I completely agree with momuskies. I am not paying 500 bucks to exchange stories. I can go to the local tackle shop and do that.
The guides would never slash or do anything. You are dealing with the locals, the guides would never do it. However a renegade cowboy attitude might not be the greatest of ideas...as this has been going on for the past 15 years and they really have not had an issue with too many coming back:) I stopped to visit a friend of mine who is a guide in that area and was pulling my boat. I was not going to fish that area, just passing through. I stopped to get gas and a guy noticed I was a muskie fisherman. He came right up and started to question why I was in town and what my plans were. He made it pretty clear I was not welcome. As I stated before, the guides are not the ones who made the policy, they just work with it... |
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Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Gotta remember, that area is part of a foreign country and the Province might have experienced less influence from US tourists and visitors from other countries. That said, there are areas of the US where out of the area hunters showing up without an outfitter are not treated much differently by the locals.
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Location: Mt. Zion, IL | Then BenR that is my mistake. I may have misread that part. Still no individual owns any water. |
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| Maybe I should figure out a way to make Lake Kinkaid my own private playground. Better yet, I'll just move north and claim Vermillion. I have re-read all the posts and must reiterate that this "out east" thing just isn't for me. Maybe I'll just have to drive out this summer to check it out for myself. If I'm going to pay a fortunate to fish water that I can't fish on my own (or I'm supposedly not allowed to), I will be going somewhere much more exotic to fish for fish that I can't catch on my own. Say Patagonia Brown Trout, Kamchatka peninsula rainbows and salmon, Amazon Peacocks, Fly-in monster pike, and the list goes on. There is one thing that these places have in common, I can't physically fish these places on my own, hence part of the high cost of some of these trips. Anyway, I could keep going but I won't. Moral of the story, this just ain't my cup o tea. |
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| I used to guide on kinkaid and fished there almost everyday for 2 years. I think the bass fisherman did quite a number on my trailer lights and to other muskie fisherman and other stunts. It was not such a polite place in the early years at all... But i do believe in your statement. If you guys were able to pull this off on your own waters you would. The biggest complaint we read on this forum is pressure. How lakes are getting pounded now. They figured out how not to have this issue....they have their river X without having to hide it. If you won't mention the name of the lake you are fishing, you are trying to do the same thing that takes place out east, just going about it in a less destructive manner......
Edited by BenR 2/26/2008 11:00 AM
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Posts: 282
Location: north west wisconsin | [...]
Let's say that you or I were just getting into muskie fishing and were wondering about guides, we stumble upon this thread and now we have a bad taste in our mouth.
[...]
In this world we are always being watched by the next generation in everything that we do. I just hope I can be a better example than I had growing up.
Thank you
Tony Knuteson |
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Posts: 5874
| It's called cabin fever! Some topics just bring out the negative side of debate, and of those participating. As for this one, you've heard from just one guide from out east. Do I agree with what he says? Not exactly. Do I agree that a guide should demand that you stay away after he's done with you? Nope? But, if it is in fact done as a way of self preservation, well, what can he do? I think part of them saying this is also a warning to you, the client, of what may happen if you do show up in the days following. Now, is it just the locals who do the damage? Or are some of these guides responsible? Only way to tell is to take the risk, and maybe catch those in the act? Not a risk I am willing to take for a fish. Besides, I think I have access to just as big of fish right where I live.
My other thought is I'm not about to pay anybody $2-3K for a 4-6 days of fishing to maybe catch a big fish. I don't care who he is. But that's just me. And I also think that those that do pay that amount are there for those 4-6 days, and are then heading home, not hanging around to fish the next several days to a week.
I think you need to filter and separate normal guides from those out east. Not the same breed and certainly not the same objective. They are there to put you on big fish( at least that is the stated goal), and not necessarily to help you learn that particular body of water.
[...]in this thread, most of the debate was between others. You got some good info out of guys like Ace, Norm, Capt Extreme, and others. And others got the benefit of that same info, and hopefully will put it to good use.
[...] This thread is NOT giving musky anglers a bad name or image. It may cause a few to question where or why they may hire a guide, but so what? I doubt that would cause anybody to not want to get involved in the mania called musky fishing.
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Location: MPLS, MN | Trophymuskie - 2/25/2008 12:16 PM
We have some of the best muskie waters because of the low pressure, if we start getting 20 boats fishing out of every launch the quality of fishing would decline at a fast pace.
Seriously, then why is this not the case on Mille Lacs or Vermillion? Tons of pressure there and 40-50#'s are caught every year. If you fish with some of the top guides there I'd bet your chance at a 50+"er is probably close to the same as out east. |
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| If I was just getting into muskie fishing, this sort of stuff is exactly what I'd want to learn about so I knew who to hire/not hire, and why. Personally, I respect Richard's willingness to tell it like it is. Neat little reminder that you just can't go wherever you want and do whatever you want and expect to be welcomed with open arms. |
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| I will also add that this is not the whole river. There are areas that you are able to fish and will not get any flack from anyone. You still will have ample opportunity to catch multiple 50-54 inch fish. I had a map marked up by one of the guides for these areas. The areas that are "protected" are the spots that tend to hold the 56 plus inch fish and also are located in less tourist friendly areas. Also a good debate is nice. I don't think anyone is taking this personally. It is just an exchange of cultures. I think what I am trying to express, is that you will would have a great time, learn a ton, and spend time on the water with a guide that loves what he does and works harder than anyone else I have had the pleasure to fish with. Also those techniques added a whole new arsenal to my approach to fishing....Ben |
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Location: On the Niagara River in Buffalo, NY | My job as a Guide is not only to teach you how to fish or add to your learning curve,but to also teach you the water we are on.I have no problem marking your map or giving you GPS numbers. I will however school you on how important it is to handle our Big Girl's properly and how important it is to a Natural Fishery to Release your fish no matter how big it is.I'm from out East and you can come back,fish yourself the same day and ask me whats going on,I'll always try to answer you back when I'm not busy.
Capt. Larry D. Jones
www.mostlymuskies.com
716-432-0198
On the Niagara River |
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| Mille Lacs and Vermillion get stocked (and they have natural reproduction). Pressure on natural occuring lakes might have (probably does) have a bigger effect than on lakes that get stocked too. |
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Posts: 384
Location: Eagle River, Alaska | Theis topic has moved off in a very interesting tangent. Having always lived in nthe westerj part of the US, and now in Alaska, I am always an interloper when fishing northeastern, midwest waters for musky. My first musky fishing experience was several years ago with Richard Collin.....I knew absolutely nothing about musky fishing and in the two days we fished, not only caught several musky but learned an awful lot about musky fishing from Richard. Even then he explained how things were out there although he never asked me not to fish in those areas again, I respected the way they have kept their waters producing large musky and understood. In Alaska I have several guide friends who sometimes we fish as guide and customer and after season as friends. I would never tell anyone about specific halibut holes these guys fish in some areas as they search hard for them and this is their livelihood and the fish are constantly moving around. Due to this respect, one of the guides I had hired to guide me showed up early the morning of our trip and told me he wasn't going to guide me that day and wouldn't accept any payment as we were going to fish one of his A spots he only takes out of staters too, and then infrequently. He asked me not to divulge the info as it would not be easy to ruin this little stream on the Kenai Peninsula.....the fishing was unbelievable....not for huge fish, but beautiful little dollies who obviously did not often see fishermen....true you could hear huge brown bears walking all around you in the bushes, with the fear of becoming bear poop at anytime very real...but what a hoot. This man has shown me other spots which I have respected, I may fish them but do not show them to others as he asked. Guiding is a tough business and it works differently in different places and everyone needs to respect that. If these stipulations are unacceptable...don't go there and look for a guide to piss off......perhaps there is a reason some of these Canadian waters have kept there natural reproducing waters healthy.......
Brian
Edited by DocEsox 2/27/2008 2:49 AM
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Posts: 97
| I have no experience out east, and in all likelyhood will more than likely never be able to get out there to fish. I do think that people are getting riled up because it has come across that some of the guides have staked there claim to a certain section of the river, which happens to be a public waterway. Some of the guides are claiming that too much pressure will hurt the fishery, but it is ok for them to exploit it for their personal gains, that is why I think peopleare getting PO'd.
This stretch of the river may be isolated now, but sooner or later like everywhere else, people will be encroaching on the area. Like it or not these guides will have to learn to deal with it. Times do change. |
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| So, is it the eastern guides being protective and secretive? Or the Locals, trying to keep out visitors by intimidation and vandalism?
Seems to be some difference in opinions here.
Edited by Shep 2/27/2008 10:09 AM
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Location: Eastern Ontario | Obfuscate Musky - 2/26/2008 12:36 PM
Seriously, then why is this not the case on Mille Lacs or Vermillion? Tons of pressure there and 40-50#'s are caught every year. If you fish with some of the top guides there I'd bet your chance at a 50+"er is probably close to the same as out east.
You cannot even come close to comparing the two. Everything is different from pressure to stocking vs. natural reproduction to the size and number of fish. This also is a new thing in MN and who knows how long it will last.
You are getting crowded here if there is another muskie fisherman within sight. LOL I never had to duck cowgirls or line up to fish a spot. We are not fishing puddles here, we can cover 50 miles of river on a daily bases.
Funny how Ben mentions this one area been way over protected, every time I go there I always run into people. I even like to get away once in a while to be alone and I know not to pick that area as the word gets out by the time you hit the gas station or the local Tim Hortons.
Angler attitude as something to do with it, an IL angler who's been coming here for years got his Van vandalized a few years ago. At that time I was told by friend when he was approached to shoot the chit he told them to F off. Naturally this friend is a cop so no association with this incident but who knows how many guys he told off that week.
I don't think guides can even ponder damaging people's property. I know I take my job seriously and do everything on the up and up as I need to feed my family. You can't do that from jail. 
God I even got my truck vandalized at a regular launch last year but I think that's just a jealous guide.
I think if I treat my clients with the utmost respect I'll get the same in return. After many years we get to develop friendships with clients and always have a good time.
I guess all I can say is to each is own. You want peace and quit and chances at a fish of a lifetime then you best chance is out east. Some guides are not even available and some are not even worth the gas money just like everywhere else. |
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| Just read this post and am amazed.
I am from out east, not too far up from Richard.
Guys, there is a reason that most of your lakes are stocked, that you are constanlty looking for the next "Hidden Gem" pound the crap out of it and move to the next. Your bounty on the great Mille Lacs will soon be over as fast as it came.
Here since we are a little protective (call it anal if you like) our children will still be able to go out on OUR river and connect with giant fish in the same spots we have.
If you dont want too come, Oh well just more big fish for the rest of us. |
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Location: Northern Wisconsin | well once all the fish in mille lacs and the rest of mn are gone im sure everyone will go out east to catch the big ones so you cant protect your water for ever. |
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Posts: 408
Location: Omaha, Nebraska | Shep - 2/27/2008 10:08 AM
So, is it the eastern guides being protective and secretive? Or the Locals, trying to keep out visitors by intimidation and vandalism?
Seems to be some difference in opinions here.
From what I read, it sounds like it is the locals who believe these eastern lakes/rivers are "their" private musky fisheries. Who is it to say that only they can fish what they believe is the finest musky fishery, and one of their excuses is "...our children will still be able to go out on OUR river and connect with giant fish in the same spots we have. " Seriously, that sounds a little funny... these are public waters. |
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Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | Question: I have been toying with the idea of heading 'east' for some years now. Been researching places to stay, and procurring maps. I don't plan to hire a guide. I do plan on finding good water, ON MY OWN, albeit maybe not on the first trip. But, what if one of these spots that my wife and I find, just happens to be one of 'theirs'?
I can understand some of where they are coming from as we prefer to keep lightly pressured/big fish areas(the two often go hand in hand where we fish) we frequent around the midwest reigned in. However, I don't even think of slashing a tire, as more pressure comes to these areas. We have to live with it as the sport grows, and just try to keep a leg up in the search for more, and is what is so fun about the sport. So... should I expect 'trouble' when I head out there in 2010? I've found a few motels and resorts near/around some of the fishing grounds that I want to frequent. Should I expect vandalism to my rig at the resort, when folks learn I am fishing for muskies? Might think twice about heading over, unless I bring a few extra sets of Coopers ehh?.... Man..
Edited by Reef Hawg 6/26/2008 11:28 PM
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| While I have never fished OUT EAST--I have used my share of guides in Northern Wisconsin and Minnesota. I have been asked by guides in these areas to keep certain spots to myslef and to keep some of the smaller lakes they have showed me to myself. I DON'T FIND THIS OFFENSIVE AT ALL. These guys are making a living off of their knowledge and if they want me to keep it closed mouth I have no problem with that. I have refished some of these lakes and spots with other fisherman--I just kept it to myself about how I learned about them and jut fished over these spots and lakes as to not draw more attention to them. As far as the out east thing goes--IF YOU DON'T LIKE THEIR POLICIES THEN DON'T FISH THERE. Plenty of water to fish in North America. I also know of several landings in N. WI.. where vandalisum has occured on more than 1 occasion to Vehicles and trailers while out fishing. Some people just don't like others fishing their waters and seem to take out their anger on the owners vehicles. This will happen at even some in town landings while out night fishing!! It's hard for me to figure out BUT --they are just fish-- Some people must justn feel the need. |
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Posts: 159
Location: NYC (and many weeks in MN during summer) | I find some info in this thread pretty disturbing, and although it is a few months old, I'm sure things out east hasn't changed, YET. As with anything else, over time, as north America becomes more populated, it becomes harder and harder to keep natural resources protected against outside encroachers.
I live in NYC, and you can rest assured that if I ventured on my own, I surely wouldn't allow the locals OR guides to intimidate me. In fact, part of my research on the water would be with a set of binoculars.
Two rivers came on here and threw gasoline on the fire in a radically arrogant tone. My answer to him is that the water isn't yours (OURS as you described it.) heck, I'm vindictative enough that if I really felt strongly enough that I'd hire a guide for a week and I'd not only share that info here, I'd have it PUBLISHED in all the Muskie magazines.
On a side note, its fairly well known that the Indians (locals), have broken a window or slashed a tire or two at the public launches on Mille Lacs. So it does happen.
Randy |
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| Hey Randy, I just moved from NYC to CO...If you are looking to get out on some of the finest muskie waters south of the border, shoot me a PM. My brother goes to Greenwood a few times a week and Muskie Inc. chapter 22 is filled with great guys...Ben |
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Posts: 159
Location: NYC (and many weeks in MN during summer) | Hey Randy, I just moved from NYC to CO...If you are looking to get out on some of the finest muskie waters south of the border, shoot me a PM. My brother goes to Greenwood a few times a week and Muskie Inc. chapter 22 is filled with great guys...Ben
I'm in the middle of a 3 week fishing trip in Minnesota right now. My wife is house hunting in wayzata on lake Minnetonka, so I think I know how you feel about relocating. When I get back to NY, I'd sure appreciate getting in touch with your brother, as I have no one to fish fresh water with.
Thanks!!!
Randy |
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