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Posts: 433
Location: Cedarburg, Wisconsin | Trolling not? I don't think so! In my boat, most of the time you are holding the rod yourself, pumping lures, changing lures, keeping them clean and talking to me about the lure YOU chose, about it's action and depth. Why wouldn't that count? All I'm doing is putting the boat in position where you have a chance to get bit. How is that any different than using a bow mount to cruise around weeds and rocks?
I guess if you are sitting there like a bump on a log, because you choose to, waiting for someone to take the rod out of the holder and hand it to you when a fish hits, yeah, that's different. I'd call that being ballast. |
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Posts: 1023
Location: Lafayette, IN | Two words... "Team effort!" Most experienced musky anglers are quick to give kudos to fishing partners who put them on fish, share some previous experience that helps them select baits or times to fish, and who completes an effective net job. Oh, and takes the picture. While I may prefer to catch a fish casting I would still enjoy someone handing me the rod to enjoy the fight if the fish was already hooked. Conversely, I certainly enjoy passing the rod to the next person as well. Makes for a fun memory with your fishing partner. "Remember when WE ....."
Edited by stephendawg 7/9/2008 7:42 AM
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Posts: 226
Location: W. PA. | I don't know what "counts" or doesn't but personally I would get much more satisfaction from catching a fish that I did all the work for (studying maps, digging up info on the net, working the water trying to find hot patterns, etc.) than I would from catching a fish when the guide put me on the spot, told me what lure to use, and said "cast to that rock". Pretty much the same as getting more satisfaction from catching a fish on a lure you built rather than one you bought.
It's pretty much just a personal opinion, matters some and not to others, there is no wrong answer. Just like trolling, I am just as happy with a fish I caught trolling as one I caught casting. Doesn't matter to me what method I used to take it but other people don't feel the same, as you can see even in this thread. |
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Posts: 1996
Location: Pelican Lake/Three Lakes Chain | sorenson - 7/8/2008 6:09 PM
Fishless days with a guide don't count either then. You must forget anything you learned.
Sorno, that is pert near as funny as Presque Isle math. |
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Posts: 785
| I don't go with guides very often (only a few times), but have always enjoyed it when I did.
Of my three biggest fish ever one was a 48"er caught with Steve Jonesi in 06' (my PB at the time), and the other two were a 47"er and a 51"er I caught last year on a spot I discovered all on my own (literally, I've never ever heard another musky fisherman mention this area... good!).
I must say therefore having seen both sides of the question first hand that while it was very rewarding to catch a 50+ on my own steam and with no help (and no doubt my proudest catch)... It was just as exciting at the time catching a big one with Steve. I credit him for boat control and making a good call on the spot to fish (of course), but I likewise presented the bait in a way that made it eat, and managed to get it to the net. No different than my two fishing partners (in a way, not calling myself a Steve Jonesi here) catching fish from the spots I choose to fish and from my boat control... I helped, but they caught the fish!
Just my opinion on the matter, one of many...
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Posts: 291
Location: Minneapolis | Sure, guided fish count. The one holding the rod has to play the fish and get it into the net. Guides are great for helping learn new water, especially big water, when you don't have a lot of time.
That being said, I do feel more satisfied catching fish by myself or with friends on lakes or spots we found without help from a guide. |
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Posts: 910
Location: Hastings, mn, 55033 | "If the fish is caught trolling I think the argument might be able to be made, although I still don't agree, but if the fish was caught casting I don't see any merit to the argument."
What is the difference between trolling and casting? The person holding the rod still has to fight and land the fish.
J Sloan,
I hope you were being sarcastic! |
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Posts: 2068
| saumon - 7/8/2008 3:23 PM
[But the most memorable ones, although not necessarily the bigger ones, were thoses caught when fishing alone, wich happen half of the time.
Really? I have caught many nice fish while fishing alone - nobody want to fish 15 hours a day with me  ...... some of the most unmemorable fish I have ever caught!!!
Do they count??? absolutely!!!
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Posts: 2754
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | This has to be one of the most stupid questions ever posted on MF! (Yeah, this statement will probably get this post pulled).
I love the sword fisherman analogy, i.e., if you don't have $200K- +$2M for a sword boat & you go on a charter you're not sword fishing! Exactly how does that logic work? If you legally catch the new IGFA record sword fish on that charter, is it your record fish or the charter captain's?
IMHO- Guides provide very valuable services to their client's. After all the guide is not fighting the fish or even remotely responsible for getting it to the net. He/she might try to give specific guidance during the battle, but whether those instructions are followed is not chisled in granite, nor do they gaurantee sucess.
I think there are two different guide customers, i.e., 1. Those whom have the time & money, but not the equipment/means to catch a muskie - they hire a guide. Then there is #2, i.e., those whom have the time, money, and equipment/means to pursue the fish. But they chose to hire a guide to reduce their learning curve on specific water, or under specific conditions. Are either wrong? Should any fish caught not count? Not IMHO!
I fall in the later group, with the exeption of available time, i.e., my time on the water is limited. However, no guide in their right mind would guarantee that you will catch fish, i.e., mearly you may/will have an opportunity to catch fish. What a guide or charter captain really offers is knowledge, i.e., knowlege about the fish, it's habitat and what are good strategies/techniques to increase the odds of a sucessful fishing adventure.
In fact I have been fishing muskies since May 1996, and have both the means/equipment and the money to pursue the mighty muskie. Yet, I thought long & hard about hiring a guide. At the October 2006-MF Presque Isle Outing, I finally broke down and hired a guide (Howie Meyers of Seven Islands Guide Service). Why? Because I wanted to learn more about late fall muskies. Needless to say, I got an education in late fall muskies from someone who is a master at pursuing these fish. Yes, both Howie and I caught fish that day! Did they count - I realy don't care what you think, and believe me, I really don't, because to me they do! That one day fishing with Howie was more educational then all the late fall muskie articles I had read up to that time, and I have read a lot of muskie fishing articles & books, and also have pretty good retention of what I read.
Just exactly where do we get muskie fishing information? Many say, time on the water is the best teacher. Well, why not time on the water with the professor? That's really what good guides are, i.e., the equivalent of a college professor. They have mastered their subject matter through dillegent study and time on the water.
Howie did not just say do this, or we're going to do this. He explained in detail what & why we were going to do what we did to increase the odds of catching a muskie. This included fish locations, techniques, etc. He was right!
At the 2007 MF Preque Isle Outing I again hired Howie, why because I enjoyed the first experience and he's one of the best. I invited Spencer Berman (~19yrs old) to join us on Sunday. It was really pretty educational listening to Spencer ask Howie questions & Howie's reponses. That alone was worth the cost of the day on the water. I didn't hire Howie because I expected to catch a fish, rather because I wanted to spend some more time on the water with him and maybe learn some more about muskies. Yes, I will fish with Howie again.
Do "guided fishes" count? Final answer: It's up to the fisherman, and not the casual observer! If you're not the fisherman handling the rod & fighting the fish, in my book you're a casual observer.
Have fun!
Al
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Posts: 32934
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Al,
Actually, I think you are not far from dead center. |
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Posts: 73
Location: Indiana | I think most of this fuss is caused by a poor choice of words. It's not a matter of a fish "counting" or not. I think the original question dealt more with personal accomplishment. If two identical fish were caught...one while being guided and one with no guide "assist"...which would you look back on with more pride?
Now I know we get assists from all over the place. But there is definately something to be said for getting out onto a new body of water (or one you haven't been on in months), using all your past knowledge to find the fish, and using your own skills to catch that fish. Not to metion doing something different and having it work.
It's just a matter of perspective really. And to tell the truth, there is no right or wrong answer. |
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Location: Lake Tomahawk, WI | Castmaster,
Yes, sarcasm is a family disease. Started with my parents continually saying something like "nice job, we're so proud of you" every time I did something stupid.
JS
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Posts: 2323
Location: Stevens Point, WI | J.Sloan - 7/9/2008 5:07 PM
Castmaster,
Yes, sarcasm is a family disease. Started with my parents continually saying something like "nice job, we're so proud of you" every time I did something stupid.
JS
Sounds quite familiar also |
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Posts: 341
| It doesn't matter if it was guided or independent. A recent pattern can change on a dime so being shown where or what to throw yes can help your odds based on historical success but still doesn't guarantee a fish. If I had my way I would take a guide every trip so I can concentrate on my presentation and not get lazy.
A golf cart with GPS and strategy tips doesn't discount a low golf score, so why would a fishing guide.
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Posts: 476
Location: WI | I have hired guides, fished with guides, and fish with people that should be guides. Why? So that I can learn and become a better fisherman, There are guides that are specialized at all types of different types of fishing. When I first started muskie fishing I hired Ty Sennett to teach me the basics and learn about flowage fishing. I learned an incredible amount about Eagle Lake and figure eights from Donnie Hunt. I learned a ton about southern reservoir fsihing with Josh Ebersole. I've fished with Adam Oberfoell in Minnesoata and Madison and have learned how attention to detail helps you fine tune your skills. Brad Nelson and I have fished a lot together and I have learned how precise boat control can increase your odds to no avail.
I'd like to learn more about suspended fishing and would like to hire a guide to fine tune my skills there. I wouldn't mine learning how to "creature" fish someday either. Not much of a troller, but I'd love to go out sometime with somebody that knows their stuff so I can put it in the memory bank. What about fishing a river system? Jeff Hanson in Madison has the Live Action Big Joe fishing nailed down.....why wouldn't I want to learn what he knows?
So if catching a fish with a guide "doesn't count", hopefully I'll be the one that learned from a guide and was fishing behind you when I caught mine.
Dan O |
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Posts: 317
| likewise-I hears guides all the time saying they have 100+ fish...how many did THEY catch? And does it really matter? |
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Posts: 1430
Location: Eastern Ontario | You can try and tell these old timer clients of mine who come to fish with me to get their first 50 that these fish don't count. One guy lives on one of WI best lakes ( 16 hour drive ) and his first time up lost a 52 inch class fish at the boat, I actually thought he was going to cry. The next day he got a much smaller 51 but was estatic. Last year he was rewarded with a 55 and you should of seen him shaking.
But I'm sure since all those fish were caught trolling with a guide that they don't count. So I guess his Lax reproduction should be returned.
Just last week I had a couple of guys up for their first muskie trip, the first day each released a 48-49 casting. I'm sure they were pleased with that but on day two one of them got a 52 inch fish trolling and I'm sure if you asked them they would of prefered catching it casting but I'm sure it still counts. |
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Posts: 203
| I have caught fish with guides before, some of those guides have turned into good friends. So if your fishing with your friend who happens to be a guide does that fish count.. You bet your arse it does...There's nothing like holding up a muskie you caught on a rod and reel - guide or no guide!
by the way when i get my personal best at the end of july with a guide - "it will still be my personal best" cant wait... |
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | I feel sorry for John Gillespie. Fishing his whole life on TV and the poor bastard doesn't have a fish to his name. Just last night I watched him and Maina and Ol' Tex not catch four or five up on the Ottawa River with Marc Thorpe.
All that yelling and excitement. And for what? four or five high 40's to low 50's that don't even count. They so didn't count, that he's doing the next episode up there probably catching a few more that don't count. His life sucks.
If two guides fish together and they both catch fish, do they both count one, does one guy count two, or do they cancel each other out? Or, say if it was Norm and Tuffy1, would just holding each other tight be good enough?
What if you fish alone and you catch a fish and nobody sees it? Can you count it? How big can you say it was? And what if you caught two on the same pattern in the same area? Does the second count? Maybe not because you guided yourself to it? What if you fish alone, don't wear pants, catch a fish, and hook yourself? What counts, you or the fish?
It's questions like the OP's that lead to other, often more disturbing, questions.
Kevin
A good golf guide is tough to find.
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Posts: 32934
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Hopeful, that masterpiece is now:
Post of the Day.
In the case of the last example, speaking not from experience, the fish counts only to 2, because the ability and intelligence to count higher just aint there, and that's all there is to count anyhow..
Johnny Carson, on the Tonight show: ' I bet that made his putter flutter"... |
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Posts: 2865
Location: Brookfield, WI | sworrall - 7/10/2008 11:36 PM
Johnny Carson, on the Tonight show: ' I bet that made his putter flutter"...
Poor Barbara Nicklaus.
Kevin
Peace, out. |
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Posts: 785
| Hopeful that is by far the funniest thing I've read today!
Oh yeah and hooking yourself definately wouldn't count becouse thats technically snagging 
Edited by musky-skunk 7/11/2008 10:41 AM
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Posts: 59
| If you're new on a lake, and you're up there muskie fishing for a week, and you go out with a guide, casting, why wouldn't the fish count. You through the lure, hooked up, and reeled it in. If you really want your first muskie, a guide would help, because you don't know the finer points of handling and properly releasing the fish also.
If you want to "earn" fish, that's great, but a lot of people want to go on a trip for a week and catch walleyes to take home, and also try to get a muskie. They just want to relax for a week. I understand that many people want to go out there and see how big of a fish they can earn working hard.
two different viewpoints i have depending on fishing location. |
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Posts: 2754
Location: Mauston, Wisconsin | Kevin- I didn't think anyone saw me! But in that situation it certainly helps to fish with barbless hooks-> ouch  The fish still counts!
Al |
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Posts: 32934
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Al,
As I said, only to two. |
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Posts: 457
| saumon - 7/8/2008 3:04 PM
Magruter - 7/8/2008 3:54 PM
if counting fish means that much to you, you're doing this for the wrong reasons.... imho.
I think you understand it the wrong way: by counting, I don't mean the numbers, i mean something to be proud of, cause it take a lot of work, time, effort and patience...
I think that furthers the point. Hiring a guide is one of the absolute best tools in a musky fisherman's arsenal on a new (te them) body of water. If you are alluding to the fact that that guy hasn't put in his work on that water, prior to hiring a guide, you'd seem pretty silly.
Most of the people that I fish with, and a couple from the boards I've talked to, will study maps, get reports, talk to their guides, they ARE doing the work, they're putting in their time. They may not be on the water, but they are doing the work trying to establish what happens on that water. They are putting together their book of knowledge that the guide is only going to add to.
I think it's something to be proud of when you pop a 50"+ fish with a guide just like it is when you do it on your own. NO less, in some cases more, because you did it right, the guy yesterday that might have fished that spot didn't do it... |
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Posts: 7090
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | Midnight Friday, Waukegan Harbor at the cleaning station. We weigh Karloutdoor's monster brown in at 17lbs, take a pic or two and we're all drying out from an ugly rainstorm that opened up just before we got in the harbor. Karl is just about to put the electric knife to the fish and I say....
"You know, that fish doesnt count, it's my boat and I was GUIDING you guys today"
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Posts: 223
Location: Minn. | I count all fish I catch, guided or not.From the 100's of 30" of the 80's, to the 100's of 30" to 40" of the 80's and 90's. To the 52"
caught casting in 2003, to the last 19 fish over 48" up to 52" caught trolling because is the best tactic to catch mutiple large fish in the lake I fish. When I've been guided, we always talk about how and where we are going to fish. what patterns would be best and then get after them. Not much different than when I go fishing with my brother. I definetely have to count my brothers after I lost his biggest fish when the handle on the net broke in Canada. LOL |
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Posts: 5193
| No ,it should not count,unless i catch a big than it counts.bill |
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