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Posts: 78
| Hey guys,
New poster here that is primarily a Salt guy but I know this is a topic of interest here and my friends at Abu Garcia thought you might like a look at the new Revo Toro Beast.
The post has a lot of images of the new reel and technical discussion of the new features Abu has designed and was posted here under Outdoors First Media:
http://muskie.outdoorsfirst.com/articles/08.18.2015/8905/Photo.Abu....
This thread will provide a convenient place for any questions you might have that I will do my best to answer. If I cannot then maybe Steve Worrall can chime in or we can submit questions directly to Abu Garcia to answer them for us.
Let me know what you think and lets get the discussion started!
best
ps. Below are some photos of the Toro S (white) and Toro Beast (blk).
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Posts: 348
| How well will this reel handle big blades?Is it similar to the winch |
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Posts: 859
Location: MN | X2 how does reel do pulling 10's |
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Posts: 78
| Got this detailed question via PM and thought it was best to share with this thread:
"Hi John
Very Nice Write up.
These look like great reels and the fact that they come in left hand has me very interested. (I want to purchase one for my son as soon as I can). Several of us very specifically would like to know which reel ( the Toro Beast or the S) will compare to the Shimano Tranx PG in that it will offer great speed and enough power to accomplish the speed for throwing (burning) Double 10s. I personally have a Tranx PG and it works great, however it is a pain to use as it is so big. If these reels work and are smaller I will HAPPILY replace it.
Between the Revo Toro Beast, the S, and the size (51 & 61) we have 6 inch per turn combinations to pick from. The Tranx PG has 30 IPT so to me we are down to 3 of the combinations that may work, the other combinations are too slow.
The Revo T2 BST51 = 31 IPT
The Revo T2 BTS61 = 34 IPT
These two each have the proper amount of IPT but are both in a HS gear at 6.2:1 so the question is will they have the power to specifically bring in (burn) a double 10? Kind of like the Tranx HG is very fast with 40 IPT but it now doesn't have the power to do it effectively.
Also does the 51 come with all three handles?
The Revo T2 S61 has 29 IPT which isn't bad and has a 5.3:1 gear so is it a safe assumption the S model will crank with less effort than the Beast making it easier to burn a double 10?
I fully understand how gears work, (lower ratios have more power but less speed - like a bike in first gear will go up hill easily but not fast and higher ratios can go fast but not up hill). But only if we are comparing apples to apples. If you put physically larger gears (gears and pinion) into the scenario but don't change your load, then you are not comparing apples to apples.
There have been some very nice posts on M1 with lots of information but it has not been answered which reel (type (beast or S), size 50 or 60, and gearing will do the best job at burning a double 10.
Several people asked how these reels perform to the Tranx PG as the fact is that is the current bench mark when it comes to throwing (burning) double 10s
My personal choice would be the Revo T2 BST50 in (6.2 gearing at 31 IPT) if it has the power that is needed and if it comes with all three handles. However it appears the Revo T2 S 60 may work better, but it doesn't have many of the nice features of the Beast.
If you can answer my question that would be great and if you can post something for everyone to see that would be even better.
Thanks for your time.
Brad"
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Posts: 78
| So, some answers to the above the best that I am able:
This is not easily answered as there are many variables that are gonna affect which reel is ideal for the individual guy as the geometry/ergonomics/physics of each reel is a tiny bit different.
As Brad rightly pointed out physical size of gears matters, but relatively less as compared to gear ratio, spool size and handle length. They all have to work together to make "cranking power" but they generally work against the effort required for "cranking speed". If you get one, you don't get the other ie the longer handle has more cranking power but is more energy intensive to move fast etc
The knock on the Tranx has always been it's size, well, that is going to produce a lot of cranking power for a number of reasons but of course, make it really far larger than needed for freshwater and less comfortable to fish.
What Abu Garcia has done is give you every option possible for Double 10's in a more manageable size. Truly palm-able as compared to the Tranx.
But, there is no simple answer for every guy and it is only going to be solved with hours and hours on the water with different reels and handles until broad consensus emerges for the "average guy"...And I bet many will still have a small change of "this handle, with that gear ratio and this exact spool size" that is the sweet spot for their fitness level.
The Toro S comes with only one handle. The 50 size comes with the 105mm paddle. The 60 size comes with a "power casting handle" which is a balanced 105mm handle with a larger knob and the Toro Beast is the only one that comes with all three (the last one is by far the longest).
I have a Toro S coming in the next few days and I have all 3 handles. Between that and the Toro Beast I have I should come up with some more clear impressions very shortly.
The Toro S has 26" and 29" IPT respectively (50/60) to complete the picture. The final best reel may be a case of a little less IPT made up for with effort saved cranking the reel or more IPT at the cost of more effort etc. but we are still figuring that out. Very few people have had the chance to compare them side by side.
best |
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Posts: 2097
| It may be just me, but the reel I think would be closer compared to the tranx pg and something I may purchase for 10's is the Toro S with a price point $150 lower than the beast. |
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Posts: 1710
Location: Mt. Zion, IL | Will you do the same style write up and disassembly for the S reel? |
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Posts: 78
| Clarification. The Revo Toro S (50) comes with just the twin paddle paddle handle seen in the photo review. The Revo Toro Beast 50/51 does come with all three handles as shown.
Fed-ex just dropped off the Toro S (60) and I spooled it up :).
I will start taking images of all the guts and (hopefully) can post them in this thread or I will direct towards where they can be found. It will be a shorter set of photos hopefully :).
I will add right off that the Toro S is even better looking than expected. The White is more a "metallic pearl" finish and is very attractive but business like.
best |
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Posts: 251
| It looks like the reel bodies for the S and beast are the exact same for each 50 and 60 sized reels, is this true?
Are all the main drive gears in each the beast 50, 60 (and gear ratios) and S all the same size? If so does this mean the gearing/machining of the teeth are the difference in the gear ratios? If this is the case, would you just be able to swap out the pinion gear and drive gear to convert a HS to LS or even put a Beast gear ratio on a S model ? (This is the case with the Calcutta 300D and 400D; I was able to swap out the gears and get a 400D with slightly more line pick-up).
More importantly, castability. How does the Beast or S with a disengaging levelwind fair in casting compared to the the NaCL? I am most concerned with the 2.5-3.5 oz baits with a lot of wind drag (IE - double ten bucktails). Would say much better, better, about the same or worse?
My thoughts: I am leaning toward the Toro Beast 60 4.9:1 with the hopes that it will be my new double 10 reel. I use the NaCl 60 low speed currently and I can bulge dadson 9's or most 10's all day with it. It would be great if I could buy a set of the HS gears and change them out depending on a certain trip etc. without buying a whole new reel. I see the Beast as being an overall upgrade from the NaCl with a smaller body, lower gearing, slightly increased line-pick up, longer handle, and easier to depress thumb bar. I am buying into the hype. |
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Posts: 2097
| The Toro beast 4:9:1 picks up 27 IPT compared to the NaCL 5:4:1 with 26 IPT, compared to the Toro S which is 29 IPT. I am interested to hear others talk about it when they purchase them after labor day. I am in the market for a tranx PG but would like to use something smaller. |
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Posts: 78
| timhutson1 - 8/19/2015 1:34 PM
It looks like the reel bodies for the S and beast are the exact same for each 50 and 60 sized reels, is this true?
Are all the main drive gears in each the beast 50, 60 (and gear ratios) and S all the same size? If so does this mean the gearing/machining of the teeth are the difference in the gear ratios? If this is the case, would you just be able to swap out the pinion gear and drive gear to convert a HS to LS or even put a Beast gear ratio on a S model ? (This is the case with the Calcutta 300D and 400D; I was able to swap out the gears and get a 400D with slightly more line pick-up).
More importantly, castability. How does the Beast or S with a disengaging levelwind fair in casting compared to the the NaCL? I am most concerned with the 2.5-3.5 oz baits with a lot of wind drag (IE - double ten bucktails). Would say much better, better, about the same or worse?
My thoughts: I am leaning toward the Toro Beast 60 4.9:1 with the hopes that it will be my new double 10 reel. I use the NaCl 60 low speed currently and I can bulge dadson 9's or most 10's all day with it. It would be great if I could buy a set of the HS gears and change them out depending on a certain trip etc. without buying a whole new reel. I see the Beast as being an overall upgrade from the NaCl with a smaller body, lower gearing, slightly increased line-pick up, longer handle, and easier to depress thumb bar. I am buying into the hype.
1. I am not certain the bodies are identical (both of my reels are 60 size) or that the gears are swapable but I put the question to my contacts at Abu and hopefully they will answer shortly.
2. The casting is in fact superior to the NaCl 60 as you do not have the friction of the LW mechanism cycling back and forth that saps energy from distance. This is verified by my own experience. Abu says they got about 10% better performance on average by going to a narrow geometry and eliminating a synced LW. Being narrow that the LW mechanism is not always perfectly synced with the spool is not an issue with a heavy fish (ie no binding).
3. The Toro Beast/S are clear upgrades over the already fine Toro NaCl which is now discontinued. The new more narrow reels will have less "wobble" when fighting heavy fish and when fishing big baits. This is a real energy saver in both cases.
best |
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Posts: 78
| Mornin' guys. An answer from Abu about the interchangeability of gears:
"Yes the gear sets in the 50 and 60 are the same. The gear sets are also interchangeable between S and the Beast. We will offer this as a service to change the gear sets in spirit lake, for a new gear set. Consumers will also be able to change them out themselves if they feel confident they can do it."
The bodies of the 50 and 60 sizes are not precisely the same size (the body height is grown in the 60 to accommodate a taller spool) but this does not affect the interchangeability of the gears.
regards
ps: Below are images from the Toro S
1. Main gear with stack removed
2. General layout with traditional drag stack (Power Stack) but without the Active Response Drag that the Toro Beast has.
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Posts: 251
| Thank you, I am happy to get such a clear answer on that. |
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Posts: 1000
| can we get a pic of the nacl, toro s, and beast mounted on rods next to each other? The NaCl didn't fit right in my hand. This new reel looks closer in dimensions to a lexa 400, which is perfect. I just want Abu quality. |
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Posts: 78
| This is what I have already. If this is not clear enough let me know and I'll take some shots tomorrow when the light is better with the NaCl on a rod too:
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| Are the S and Beast the same size? The appears bigger in the pics. Thanks |
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Posts: 78
| The Toro S and Toro Beast are the same size for their respective 50/60 counterparts. The wide angle of the lens makes the S look a bit bigger in the picture shown. Plus my wife tells me that Black is slimming  .
The paddle and the balanced "power handle" are 105mm rivet to rivet.
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Posts: 750
Location: Minneapolis, MN | As I'm still waiting for a response, would you mind asking your Abu contacts if they will let us exchange the handles on the S? I was disappointed to learn they were only shipping the reels with one handle and that we couldn't choose the handle we wanted. |
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Posts: 2097
| Where can you pre order the Abu's? Are they like phones and may come a few days earlier than the release date? And is it available in stores 9/9? |
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Posts: 980
| I have a question regarding the rods...they went with a similar 2 piece design as the St. Croix 9'0 premiers and those premiers are considerably heavier than other 9'0 rods. Are the 2 piece abu rods heavier in weight? |
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Posts: 78
| Via PM:
"Hi John
Thanks so much for the deep dive into these reels and providing all the specific answers to everyone (I love that). Maybe it is me but I get really impatient when I can't get information about something I am interested in, so Thanks so much.
So we can swap the gears on Toro Beast and the S, that is great news. I have done that on several older Revos and I never found it very hard and it typically cost about $50 for the gears. So with that said back to my original question a few days ago as to which on will burn double tens, for me that is not a huge concern anymore as we can change the gears. So that brings up another question.........Which reel is tougher and is the extra $150 worth it for the Beast or is the S an acceptable high quality reel, as I see it has 3 less bearings? Do you know roughly how much a set of gear will cost?
Or does the Beast have some bells and whistles that a guy may never need or use?
Right now I am thinking on getting the T2 S 60 and if it isn't fast enough I would up grade to the faster gears..But I don't want to be cheap either so what would your recommendation be?
I am a semi retired (16 more months and done) and a serious muskie fishermen and the fish are on fire right now with the higher water temps but first few cold fronts coming in. I use a Tranx PG to burn 10s but every morning now I wake up with sore fingers/hands. I sure hope these reels work better than that brut. But it does work as in Bring 10s in fast (but it is just too big), I have boated 15 muskies in the past 3 weeks with 2 over 50 all burning 10s. I have had other people in the boat and they have boated a total of one as they are not able to burn the bait.
If you are ever in NE Wisconsin track me down and I will take you out.
Again thanks for your help it looks like we are getting close to our answer.
PS: If I had these reels in my hands I would give them a test with 10s and get the guys the answer they are looking for. I look forward to your response and have a good day."
So in this post I will highlight the differences between the Toro S and the Toro Beast for clarity and try to answer some of the above:
1. The Toro S uses a Zirconia Line Guide, the Toro Beast is Titanium Nitride
2. The Worm on the Toro S is chrome plated brass, the Toro Beast is Titanium Nitride over brass.
3. Under the Brake Knob the Toro S uses a bushing, the Toro Beast has a bearing and the complete clicker assembly.
4. The Palm Side Plate is identical in both reels (I even put the Toro S plate on the Toro Beast to check and it worked perfectly).
5. The Worm Shaft in the Toro S rides on bushings, in the Toro Beast it rides on bearings (no affect on casting).
6. The drag system in the Toro S is the traditional mechanism with the new Power Stack, the Toro Beast has the innovations seen in the posted article, the Power Stack with Active Response Drag.
7. The Toro S comes with one handle, paddle or power knob in the 50/60 respectively, the Toro Beast comes with all three.
8. The Toro S will come with a brass Main Gear Shaft (though my pre-production reel seems to be SS).
9. The Toro Beast uses the fully disengaging Spool from the Pinion (Infinii Spool), the Toro S uses a traditional spindle that runs through the Pinion to a bushing.
10. The Toro S uses just the externally adjustable Mag cast control, the Toro Beast has that plus centrifugal brakes.
So, are these differences worth the additional $150 at retail between the reels? Yes and no :). The biggest difference is going to be the drag system and the extra handles. But all of these are of the "nice but not required to go fishing" sort of refinements. I for one am very excited about the drag changes, but that is also because I will push the reel to it's max offshore on Tuna, Jacks and Dorado...I will also fish the reel over smaller models ie on Calico Bass, paddy rats and rockfish etc and can use more than one handle for sure for these smaller species and smaller lures. All of these refinements or exras add up in that case and cutting to the chase and going with a Toro Beast works for me.
For the average guy the Toro S is directly comparable to other reels at that price (Curado, Komodo and Lexa) with Abu's superior fit and finish (imo). However, if any of the features of the Toro Beast appeal you can get them all at once with one stop shopping. However, if you decide on a Toro S you can fully upgrade it in the future to Beast Mode  by dropping in whatever parts you choose from the Toro Beast's part list with full compatibility as long as you get all needed parts. I really like that ability to upgrade in the future.
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Posts: 78
| dami0101 - 8/21/2015 5:09 AM
As I'm still waiting for a response, would you mind asking your Abu contacts if they will let us exchange the handles on the S? I was disappointed to learn they were only shipping the reels with one handle and that we couldn't choose the handle we wanted.
Abu has answered and unfortunately it is a no go. The problems with accepting the returns and then being able to resell the handle as "new stock" is problematic for other consumers down the road.
I'm sure you can imagine the customer service nightmare when someone inevitably ends up with a tried out and then rejected handle that someone sent back to swap saying they never used it etc.
Pricing on the handles and gear sets for swapping has not been set yet. |
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Posts: 78
| Ronix - 8/21/2015 10:58 AM
I have a question regarding the rods...they went with a similar 2 piece design as the St. Croix 9'0 premiers and those premiers are considerably heavier than other 9'0 rods. Are the 2 piece abu rods heavier in weight?
I am not yet fully up to speed on all the specs on the Fantasista Beast but will say the FB88-7 I have is listed as 12.3 oz and rated to huck 4-10oz lures.
There are even heavier models rated to cast 6-16oz in the line....What I presume is that these rods rated to cast extremely heavy baits have the strength to do it with the necessary beefing up of the ferrule. |
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Posts: 2687
Location: Hayward, WI | Looking forward to these reels coming out and hearing some more reports from the field on them.
John, are you able to say if the non balanced handle of the Toro Beast is the same length of the current Revo Toro 60 Power handle? I'm wondering if it's the same, non balanced handle, or if it's different.
If they are the same length, I'm thinking the 34" reel with that power handle on the longest setting might be a nice combination. Also, will a handle from a current Toro 60 fit the new Toro Beast or S? It looks like they might be different.
Thanks much for your detailed help and reviews.
Tucker |
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Posts: 1901
Location: MN | John, it almost looks from your pics that they made the cap for the line guide pawl a bit more accessible. Or is that an optical illusion? The line guide pawl being a typically common high wear part you would think reel companies would make it much more accessible to change them out than they do, without having to take the whole reel apart just to do so. |
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Posts: 239
Location: Madison, WI | The S jumped to the top of my "reels to buy" list when I read Sworral's post on this recently that said "Hard to describe, but this one shines pretty brightly over all the other reels I have used over the 51 years I've owned a bait-caster. " regarding the revo toro S. |
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Posts: 78
| curleytail - 8/27/2015 7:33 AM
Looking forward to these reels coming out and hearing some more reports from the field on them.
John, are you able to say if the non balanced handle of the Toro Beast is the same length of the current Revo Toro 60 Power handle? I'm wondering if it's the same, non balanced handle, or if it's different.
If they are the same length, I'm thinking the 34" reel with that power handle on the longest setting might be a nice combination. Also, will a handle from a current Toro 60 fit the new Toro Beast or S? It looks like they might be different.
Thanks much for your detailed help and reviews.
Tucker
Hey Tucker,
The non-balanced power handle of the Toro Beast is significantly longer than the Toro NaCl 60. They measure 90 and 70mm, respectively. The engineers really intended this extra long version to be a "jigging" handle rather than a casting one but it works fine for me casting.
The handles are not interchangeable on the reels. The shafts are different with the Toro Beast/S being more square than the rectangular one on the Toro NaCl.
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Posts: 78
| Propster - 8/27/2015 7:59 AM
John, it almost looks from your pics that they made the cap for the line guide pawl a bit more accessible. Or is that an optical illusion? The line guide pawl being a typically common high wear part you would think reel companies would make it much more accessible to change them out than they do, without having to take the whole reel apart just to do so.
Absolutely right. There is no guard in place that has to be removed first. It is right there for easy service.
The last image is a good look at the different geometry of the Toro Beast/S versus the older Toro NaCl 60. It still palms easily but has a much more narrow and tall layout although the wide angle lense makes the NaCl seem a little wider yet than it is.
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Posts: 78
| johnsonaaro2 - 8/27/2015 12:51 PM
The S jumped to the top of my "reels to buy" list when I read Sworral's post on this recently that said "Hard to describe, but this one shines pretty brightly over all the other reels I have used over the 51 years I've owned a bait-caster. " regarding the revo toro S.
What Abu Garcia has done is perfect the ergonomics of the reel. A Toro S uses nothing particularly unique other than the Power Stack for what should be the smoothest drag in this class. Most of the rest is just Abu Garcia quality and detailing...
But the shape of the reel is what is so different and what has been much more perfected as compared to prior generations.
Generally speaking in the past reel makers have gone to wider frames rather than taller to grow capacity. This makes perfect sense as so many parts remain identical as you go wider (other than the frame and spool) and, in general, wider reels with no levelwinds are better casters (you get more line off per rotation of the spool as it does not decrease in height so fast during a cast).
But when you introduce a level wind and braid wider is not as good as it used to be....Previously you had to "sync" the levelwind when casting to keep friction from the line guide to a minimum as the angle coming off the spool increased. Well, this produces a diminishing return as you have to cycle that LW too as the cast goes out...this causes a loss of distance from friction from the mechanism. Thinner braid also decreases the spool height less than mono during a cast, so the last advantage of a wide spool really is meaningless fishing braid.
As well, wide reels cause "wobble" when retrieving lures or fighting fish with higher drag. A more narrow reel is more powerful and less fatiguing as you don't have to fight that wobble. It also allows a growing of the main gear size (more room for a drag stack and more strength for harder cranking).
So, by going more narrow and tall Abu has perfected the ergonomics of the reel for less effort casting all day, especially for big baits, and for fighting heavy fish.
It also turns out the more narrow reel is a better caster because you can neglect having to sync the LW mechanism. It simply is not needed when you stretch the distance between the spool and line guide reducing the most acute angle, particularly with slick and thin braid.
And the taller spool moves more line per revolution for casting and retrieving etc. More bonuses for a taller spool (to a point) that is balanced by longer handles.
All in all it appears to be the complete package....pending months of use by hundreds of guys on the water, so there is always that caveat...But the Toro Beast/S is not surpassed in this size reel as compared to any in the world comparing feature to feature and ergonomics, imo.
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Posts: 2687
Location: Hayward, WI | Thanks John. I think I'm happy that the non balanced handle is longer. That should give some super leverage on the high speed reel, and I think as long as the reel hold up to high resistance baits, it will be plenty powerful with the long handle.
Non balanced handle doesn't bother me. I'm so used to casting with the handle down or back to avoid engaging on the cast I don't think about it anymore. Might have to add a Toro Beast to my inventory by next year. |
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