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| Message Subject: How to fight a muskie?? | |||
Ldahlberg |
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| Interesting thread. Many years ago I set up an enstron device to test hook penetration. There is an enormous difference between the various hooks available. Hook stiffness, shape and barb size were critical factors. Easily as important as having sharp hook points in the first place. For muskies in general, and some muskie lures in specific, having larger hooks than factory standard often helps too. When a hook point comes in contact with bone or hard tissue the first thing that happens is the hook "tips" so the penetration angle and the force vector are no longer parallel. Depending on the hook's shape this effect is increased or decreased. (try tying a hook on a piece of line, sticking the point in something and begin exerting pressure. Note the angle of the point in relation to the angle the line assumes. the more parallel, the better the penetration) The majority of musky guys I've fished with use really crummy hooks, which you can get away with on bucktails. If you switch out your hard baits to Gamakatsu or owners you will hook more muskies. I've also noticed many of the guys (and guides) sharpen their hooks backwards where they sharpen the outside of the barb rather than the inside, using the double rat tail file. Longer rods actually reduce the force of impact when you set, but allow you to take up a great deal more slack on the set. (linear distance of tip travel equal 1.8X blade length) To hook a fish you do not need to tear it's head off. You need to exert enough pressure to get the barb through what ever it comes in contact with. I.E., once they bite and things are tight you need to exert enough pressure, no more no less, to get the hook in the fish. If you set on a fish and it didn't feel tight, keep cranking like hell until it's tight and set again! IMO, the heavier the lure the easier it is for a fish to shake it. By the same token a heavy lure has more inertia and often a fish that runs into one at high speeds is likely to hook itself! Compared to many of the other species I've fished, muskies are actually pretty easy to hook. No offense to tunnel visioned musky weenies, (I love 'em too!) but they are not even on the list when it come to fish that fight hard, long, or any other adjective you may choose describing difficulty of subduing. I think most are lost because anglers get too excited or don't react quickly enough or correctly when a fish bites at boat side, or plays the rope a dope just before diving under a propeller or gunwale. Anticipating where the fish is going next, and positioning yourself in the boat so there is as little boat between you and the fish helps prevent heartbreak. Drag setting is an interesting dilemna. Most musky guys use pretty thick line. This means the radius of the line on the spook varies greatly from the end of a long cast (half spool or less) to boat side (full spool) . It's a good idea to learn how to get the button pushed before it's too late when a fish blasts off at boat side. I like to loosen the drag after a fish is hooked, and if I need more pressure I use my thumb. As far as keeping fish from going airborne, personally I love it when they jump, shake their heads and growl! Heck, it's what I came to see! If you keep a good bend in the rod and keep the fish moving not that many escape while putting on a show for you. (especially if you've got good hooks!) IMO, most musky guys really rush them into the net, which with a big net and good net man certainly works, but it can also lead to lost fish. I only would suggest rushing them if they are not hooked very well. That doesn't mean pulling hard. It means making them think they're not in much trouble by pulling really easy and nursing them to within netting range. If they blast off, exert as little pressure as possible. (that's where quick reaction on the thumb bar comes in) If the net man doesn't have a good shot, don't make the attempt. Just wanted to add my 2 cents as the hook issue handn't been covered! I've been catching muskies for 51 years and have (knock on wood!) lost very few. Not counting the woofs and poofs on surface lures that didn't get hooked in the first place, of the 117 my pal and I boated this season I can't think of even one that got off a lure after everything was tight! Hope my far too lengthy diatribe helps a few of you who might be having trouble staying connected! LD | |||
| jlong |
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Posts: 1937 Location: Black Creek, WI | Awesome input Larry! Thanks. Seems there are some questions about my posts. To clarify, I'm in the camp that believes keeping a fish swimming in ONE direction is safest. If it changes directions (180 degree turn) you are at serious risk of popping hooks free (assuming the first direction of travel was the correct one). How do you know the "correct" direction? Pretty easy, actually, after you make visual contact with the fish. You want the nose of the lure pointing AT you. With a Jake, for example, you want the lip of the bait between you and the fish. If it is... and the fish turns around.... you are now at risk and need to ensure you do not over-pressure the fish until you turn 'em around again. Is my approach perfect? Nope. Is it fail-safe? Absolutely not. However, since I've began pondering the physics of it all.... and changing my behavior to account for some of these things..... my success rate at landing BIG fish has gone up tremendously. Maybe I've just been lucky.... but??? Oh yeah.... all of the above is why I want to make visual contact with the fish as soon as possible. Especially with strikes that occur far from the boat. Strikes are usually pure chaos until you see the fish and get a chance to assess the situation. That's why I prefer boatside strikes.... outside of the excitement of course. | ||
| Ranger |
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Posts: 3869 | Great thread. I don't catch fish like many of the experienced folks above, but I have 2 cents to throw in. I'm also in the small camp where I don't use my thumb on freespool as my drag. Almost all my reels are older Abu 5600ABs that I rebuild myself with upgraded parts, including Smoothie drag washers. Drags are way loose on all rods while stored at home. I then set the drag tension on each reel as I hit the water and never screw around with it while fighting a fish. From my limited experience, the original drag washers on the 5000 and 6000 series reels usually suck; the performance varries with each reel and Abu overlubricates the reels such that oil often gets on the washers. Getting a new/used Ambassadeur is like getting a new/used gun - they all have to be torn down, cleaned and relubed before use. If I recall correctly, EssoxManiac (Al W.) crimps the barbs down on all his hooks. I've fished with him a bunch in the past and I never saw him lose a fish for lack of barbs. Last, barbless hooks would keep a few of us out of the hospital's ER. Ok, maybe that was 3 cents. | ||
| firstsixfeet |
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Posts: 2361 | Jason Long, Can you please give us the mathematical formula(one which I am sure you have in place) to figure the total rotation for hooks hung from split rings, as opposed to those hung direct from screw eyes or hardwired in place via other systems, and the various rod angles needed to counter the bad leverage angles created through the fight as the musky moves, and also how to solve these equations in your head during what might be a 30 second to 3 minute battle? Physically I am aging in dog years, but my mental math is still pretty sharp, however to combat the slowing caused by bad diet, alcohol consumption, and possible ingestion of certain chemicals over the year, please.....no square roots, or unsolved y's in this equation. Thanks Jason, And if you don't want others to know these secret calculations, feel free to PM them to me. I need all the help I can get, as I can see, I have UNDERTHOUGHT all this for years. | ||
| firstsixfeet |
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Posts: 2361 | Ooops, Jason, I forgot to mention the collateral calcs for double hook penetrations, and multiple treble penetrations. Those too, if you please, thanks again, | ||
| Windburn |
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Posts: 115 Location: Birch Run | I would like to freespool muskies but, most of my previous fishing experience has been with trolling reels (salmon, walleye), or spinning reels. Whether I have been ice fishing or in the boat I have relied on backing off drags and pulling line out by hand on reels instead of back reeling or freespooling, its worked for me and yes big walleyes do pull hard at the hole and at the back of the back. I myself think I can pull line out by hand just as fast as I could freespool, but thats just me, like previously mentioned pratice freelspooling with pike before. Just my opinion, I have learned alot from this thread, like how I have been sharpening hooks wrong LOL. | ||
| rob wischki |
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Posts: 9 | very carefully | ||
| jlong |
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Posts: 1937 Location: Black Creek, WI | FSF, There is no calculation. Its just plain old common sense. Unfortunately, for many people... physics is not common. Thus, ignorance is bliss and many people continue to lose fish. I"m tellin' ya.... if you could see my demonstation that goes along with my presentation... I'm sure the snickering would stop. Seeing is believing for most. Until then.... let the internet pros continue to laugh. All I know is.... since I've made these changes I've had far fewer stories of "the one that got away". Think about your last BIG fish you lost AFTER you were pinned up (survived the intitial contact and chaos). I bet you lost it when she went deep under the boat, made a 180 degree turn, you had or rod tip UP, or the fish was swimming straight at you. Dick Pearson knows what I mean about fish going deep and setting themselves free. He describes the precursor to losing them "the big heavies". This is when the fish begins to headshake trying to gak the lure..... and the high line angle created by allowing the fish to go deep under the boat is how I explain HOW the hooks come out. I could be wrong.... but I'm sure Dick would be the first to tell that letting go deep is a bad bad bad idea. I'm just trying to understand why... other than the fact that you are very likely to lose a fish when you do. I"m willing to hear your ideas to help explain it.... cause I'm always looking to improve my chances of bagging a big musky. | ||
| Guest |
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| sometimes I really think people overthink things. | |||
| esoxaddict |
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Posts: 8788 | Jason, it makes perfect sense. The line angle, how the hooks penetrate... Think about what you do to pop hooks free when you unhook a fish. You can provide that same leverage in the same direction by setting the hook on a fish one way and then turning that fish (or letting it turn) 180 degrees and fighting it. I wasn't poking fun, just saying that personally I don't know if I'd have the bandwith, in that moment, to figure out which way the hooks were facing, and direct the fish accordingly. Frankly, I don't know WHAT to do when you get one that catches up to the bait, eats it and just keeps coming directly at you. I've lost some big ones that way, and every time it was the same -- you see what happens, and you're reeling trying to catch up to it so you can set the hook, you set the hook about the same time the fish realizes it's not food and opens its mouth to throw the bait, and you never get hooks in the fish. Having one go under the boat, or go deep at the boat? That's not fun either. Another reason why I like when they hit in the 8, right on the outside where they are supposed to. You're lined up for a perfect hookset, fish is going away from you on an angle, all you have to do is control them. The fight usually then directs the fish in a big arc, with the left side of the fish facing you the whole time. As for losing a fish when it goes deep? That makes sense too, especially on one that hits way out on a cast -- you've got the hooks pinned parallel to the horizontal plane that the fish was on when you set the hook. Now the fish goes deep at the boat, and you're off that axis by almost 90 degrees. Any pressure you put on that fish, combined with it trying to free the lure? You're helping it come unpinned. I don't have much experience with big fish, other than the fact that I have lost at least four that were well over 50. One I was just asleep at the wheel. Saw the fish eat, felt nothing, hesitated, set the hook -- too little too late. Two of the others? Coming right at me. One other went deep on me. Not a huge pool of experience to work off, but the fact that I lost several big fish in exactly the ways Jason describes? Sure causes me to raise an eyebrow, that's for sure. Guest, people do overthink things, but in this case? It's something that really doesn't get discussed. We're all so focused on when and where and how and with what, to get the fish to eat the lure, that we don't really give more than a passing thought to what happens AFTER that. "Wow, I hooked a big one today, but it got off..." If that doesn't sound familiar, you don't fish enough. Edited by esoxaddict 12/9/2009 3:17 PM | ||
| bn |
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| I don't take the time to think about too much during the fight as those that have fished w/ me know when I hook one they better get the net...fast! as that fish most likely is going to be at the boat in a matter of seconds... I think some good points are made but I also think fighting fish too long is going to be the kiss of death for most... just don't turn the fish unless you absolutely have to..if you are casting on the left side of the boat, and the fish hits and wants to run up around the right side..so be it..just net it over there....going deep? well I had a 50+ go deep on me fishing solo as I had to w/ no net man and it got in the net...was I lucky? maybe...you are never going to land all the fish you hook ... over the last couple seasons 300 have visited my boat alone and really not too many lost..the ones that did get off either jumped and thru the lure, or turned and popped off...or were fought too long and not directed to the net... | |||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32889 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Fighting them smart doesn't mean fighting them very long. I'd bet many of my muskies are in the net in less than a minute and nearly all in under 2. I HOOK many of my larger fish very deep, actually looking for them down there in the 18 to 30' level. Interestingly, almost every one of them tries to come up...some pretty fast..following the path of least resistance. Everyone has differing experiences, which adds depth to this discussion, IMHO. | ||
| firstsixfeet |
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Posts: 2361 | Jason It is probably wrong to tease you a little, particularly in light of the fact that I, and many others really enjoy your posts, and your sometimes unexpected take on things. I usually go back and re read your posts and have also re read your articles, in an effort to fully grasp your ideas and possible applications of the same. Edited by firstsixfeet 12/9/2009 6:51 PM | ||
| dougj |
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Posts: 906 Location: Warroad, Mn | Wasn't real sure if I should post knowing that FSF is lurking! However, he're some of my thoughts. First, I too, like to see them jump and shake their heads, makes muskies the best fish in fresh water! After many year of guiding many folks I feel that there are many more fish lost because you are pulling too hard rather than not pulling hard enough. Most fish that I see get away are the result of an excited fisherman pulling too hard and reeling too fast. It seems that the harder you pull the more the fish react. If a fish is lightly hooked it's very easy to rip the hooks out, and the more pressure you put on the more often this happens. If the fish is well hooked (hook in over the barb is the corner of the mouth), it's almost impossible to lose them. We all talk about hook removal equipment (cutters, pliers, etc.) and we know how dificult it is to get a hook out many times if the fish is well hooked. If the fish is lightly hooked more pressure will cause the hook to rip through the little bit of flesh that's holding it. I really don't know that hook angles have much to do with it, I suspect that it's much more where the hook is and how much flesh it has hold of. It pays to have good hooks (bigger is better) that are sharp. I've done this a number of times just to show folks how fish react. I'll have a fish hit and set the hook hard. Usually the fishes first reaction will be to shake it's head, or jump, but not always. Then just to see what a fish does with out pressure on it I'll hit the free spool button and let the fish swim. They almost always just quit fighting and swim down to the bottom of the lake and sit there. They'll slowly start to swim around again after a few minutes as though there's nothing wrong. After all this I tighten up the line again and the fish will start to fight again. They never come off! If I put minimal pressure on the fish I can usually lead it right up to the boat with out a problem. Keep in mind that I've caught 1,000's of muskies and get to play with them almost every day on the LOTWs, so I sometimes get a little expermental, I don't recomend this as a way to land muskies, but it does work! Here's what I usually do. If I get a fish on that I'd really like to land I usually play it with my thumb (this takes experience) and not the drag. I'll set the hook hard and if I see it's a big fish I'll usually hit the free spool button and play the fish with my thumb. I'll try and get the fish started to the boat and then get on the trolling motor and start a slow tow of the fish toward open water. If I can get the fish started to follow the boat I'll slowly tow her for a while. If the fish want to run or jump I'll slowly give her line, and try and keep her calm. I can usually tell when the fish is getting pooped out and I'll stop towing it. Doesn't lead for a very exciting fight at times, but you get almost every one that you can tow. I just do it slow and you can feel the fish calm down. I usually don't net the fish I catch and most are water released. They seem pretty happy with this procedure. Again I don't think this will be a perfered method, but it does work, but takes a little experience. From what I can see most folks pull too hard. They think that the faster they can get the fish to the boat the better. This makes the fish mad and they fight harder (Jump and shake). From what I can tell is causes you to lose fish. However, this is one iof the reasons we fish muskies! FSF, if we actually catch a fish or two this winter, I'll show you how this works. This might even play in with JLongs idea of not letting the fish turn on you as they don't once you start to tow them. They usually don't go deep either. Doug Johnson
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| firstsixfeet |
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Posts: 2361 | I think Slamr still wonders about one I let swim as I loosened my drag a couple years ago. It woke him up anyway, just in time to eat some kind of peanut crunch bar. It might have been the shock of seeing the technique which made him forget he was allergic to them. Poor Bugger. I don't mind them swimming around, but that going down to the bottom deal might be very counterproductive in some of the areas we have been fishing. | ||
| jlong |
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Posts: 1937 Location: Black Creek, WI | Take what DougJ says about PULLING TOO HARD and use that to determine when you can put pressure on a fish and when you CAN'T. I was simply trying to point out when it is definitely NOT a good idea to apply lots of pressure on a fish. Also keep in mind that the bigger the fish, the more likely it is that too much pressure will work towards removing the hook. Smaller fish will just drag through the water or turn.... covering up your "mistake" of applying too much pressure. But, with a big fish that mistake can be costly. When you are unhooking a fish in the net, I hope you are considering ANGLES. How else do you know which way to yank on the hook? Same thing applies when fighting a fish. If you can recognize when you can take control and apply pressure vs. needing to baby the fish and apply JUST enough pressure to load the rod (avoid slack line)... hopefully you can prevent one or two more "the one that got away" stories. | ||
| Almost-B-Good |
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Posts: 433 Location: Cedarburg, Wisconsin | The biggest muskies I've lost all have gotten off when I was really leaning on them and they were straight down under the boat. Both times I felt a "ping" as they reversed directions and presumably the leader slipped off the side of their face and hit the hooks. Then slack and the lure came back with no fish attached. The next worst thing I've done is tried to correct losing fish by muscling them in quick. Resulted in hooks twisting 180 degrees, hook points bending open and hooks pulling out. The common denominator, too much pressure on the fish. The tighter the drag, the more you lean on the fish, and the harder you pull the greater your chances to blow the fish from my experiences. I too had chances to play around with hooked fish, in one case steelhead. My friend was yelling at me to keep the line tight or I'd lose fish, over and over and over again till I had enough. I opened the bail after hooking one and he said, now you lost him for sure. I closed the bail after about a 15 seconds of seeing line pull out while we trolled, resumed reeling, and the 14#er was still stuck on the spoon as securely as you would ever have wanted to see. Same thing with pike. We had three hooked at the same time while trolling walleyes so I open the bail on mine, put the rod in a holder and netted the other two to save the lures. Closed the bail and the pike was still there with the little Rapala still stuck by one hook in the corner of its mouth. In the end, you do whatever works for you. For me, lighter constant pressure and a loose drag with an educated thumb means more fish in the net, easier hook removal and quicker releases. | ||
| ToddM |
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Posts: 20227 Location: oswego, il | Wow, this thread just keeps getting better! Another thing to consider is the action of the bait and how well they are at hooking fish. I have a couple crankbaits that I absolutely love. One is very erratic and has two hooks. Every fish that hits it is not hooked well and every time the bait is completely outside the mouth. I lose fish on it and I have to play them light as they are never hooked well. It just works to well not to use it. I also have a 9" grandma with a metal lip installed. Three hooks and I do not think I have lost a fish on it yet. Erratic baits just do not hook up as well compared to say a bucktail. Depending on what you through alot of can certainly shape how you fight your fish based on those experiences. | ||
| esoxaddict |
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Posts: 8788 | Ldahlberg - 12/9/2009 7:18 AM [...] No offense to tunnel visioned musky weenies, [...] I don't care you you are, that's FUNNY!!!! None meant, but some will be taken, no doubt... Mr Dahlberg may not know everything about muskie FISHING, but he's sure got the crowd pegged!! Crap, that's funny!! HAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAA!! Edited by esoxaddict 12/11/2009 3:58 PM | ||
| Sab |
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Posts: 69 | Every year it seems I lose a trully big fish that takes the whole bait in his mouth crushes it down, without getting a hook in it. Then I drag the sucker to the boat with some effort, then he opens wide and the lure comes flying out. I know I don't have a hook in her when she doesn't fight, and allows me to drag her in. Anyone have a solution to that one? Obviously this is happening mostly with large cranks. | ||
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