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| missourimuskyhunter - 8/26/2009 9:21 PM
Also consider how many people are throwing bucktails compared to swimbaits.....even up that number and you might be surprised how well those swimbaits will do.
with internet,magazine nothing really good remain secret for long time.
if everybody have success whit big blades,there is a reason behind that.
cast your''swimbaits'' into weeds pocket and i will keep my bucktails,single fluted ,twin mag you choose.
real swimbaits(lipeless) is something relatively new for musky,but plastic body,wood crankbaits are here for years.imho they shine more when its trolling time.
why a triple jointed baits with lips is now called a swimbaits?
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Posts: 582
| i don't think i have ever caught a muskie on a swimbait or crankbait. Used to fish them all the time. Bucktails always produce usually. |
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Posts: 139
| Bucktail baby, bucktail! |
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Location: Minnesota | To quote Jackson "Bucktails always produce usually"
Good Luck with your bet and let us all know how it goes please. |
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Posts: 714
Location: Rhinelander, WI | Here’s my theory: If all you throw are swimbaits you will catch more fish on swimbaits, than bucktails. You can take that to the BANK! You should be able to win the bet every time.
Every bait is a tool. Pick the right situation and use the correct tool. Sometimes bucktails will be number one, sometimes swimbaits will be better.
Nail A Pig!
Mike
Edited by MRoberts 8/27/2009 8:51 AM
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Posts: 79
Location: South Dakota | don't forget the Huddleston bait. This bait has a great natural fall and that tail pumps at very low speeds. You can also order the bait with different fall rates. |
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Posts: 254
Location: In the cabbage | Nail A Pig???? I gotta ask...
MRoberts - 8/27/2009 8:50 AM
Here’s my theory: If all you throw are swimbaits you will catch more fish on swimbaits, than bucktails. You can take that to the BANK! You should be able to win the bet every time.
Every bait is a tool. Pick the right situation and use the correct tool. Sometimes bucktails will be number one, sometimes swimbaits will be better.
Nail A Pig!
Mike
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Location: Twin Cities | BNelson - 8/26/2009 3:37 PM
I think the track record of double tens the last few years doesn't have a single hole in it...yes MInc data is flawed, definitely true with them changing the "lake x" rule...dumb. but it is a sampling. but maybe all those 50s in the DCG ads were really on swimbaits and we are all being fooled into throwing them! son of a....
The point is if everyone used swimbaits as much as bucktails, they might out produce. The bucktail thing is a self fulfilling prophecy when it's the lure given the most water time. |
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| SFP ???? not a chance....I will never, ever agree with that, or buy that theory...
if anyone thinks it's a SFP then they simply have no good reason to throw double tens.... sell all your double tens and throw swimbaits and see if your numbers suffer...i know what i'd put my money on....
imho. |
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Location: In the cabbage | Hey you don't have to agree, its just my theory.
bn - 8/28/2009 10:17 PM
SFP ???? not a chance....I will never, ever agree with that, or buy that theory...
if anyone thinks it's a SFP then they simply have no good reason to throw double tens.... sell all your double tens and throw swimbaits and see if your numbers suffer...i know what i'd put my money on....
imho. |
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| I think there is something to the SFP. I have seen where fish have become conditioned to the double tens. Sure they are vibration feeders. But what if that particular vibration is always associated to something negative? A goldfish with the brain the size of a pinhead can be taught to play basketball http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hdTb3ZMsYA&feature=related through positive reinforcement. Why cant a musky learn to avoid something through negative reinforcement…I also think of the Larry Ramsell In Fisherman article on Eagle Lake where he got to play with the radio tagged giants all summer. That after capture they would vacate the area never to return to the area they were captured. Including one which when following a lure in another area spotted the green boat, left the saddle where she had been and headed out to the deepest water in the area. Probably not as big a problem on large bodies of water with a high density of fish, which is where I tend to throw them. But on the potholes I like to fish I rarely throw the double tens anymore. Don’t need to because everyone else is, and those tend to have been the ones whining how slow it has been.
I tend to think the more subtle water displacing vibration would be the hardest to condition to, as it more resembles their natural prey. IMO the reason the Bulldawg/Joes has been so successful year after year. Really that’s all they do is displace water. If they stop eating stuff that just displaces water they are going to get pretty skinny. On the other hand are they going to starve to death if they don’t eat that noisy contraption buzzed over them that really hasn’t worked out too well for them in the past? Personally I can see lots of places where I would throw the swimbaits (lipless) over the bucktail. Let us know how the bet works out.
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| while I do agree with much of what you said Shane the simple fact is big fish keep getting caught on them over and over, the same fish keep eating them.
Sure they eat Dawgs and swimbaits and mepps #5s too.
Another interesting thing is, I fish a couple lakes with very little pressure, I'm talking almost none, the fish have had very very little conditioning to Double Tens, but we can barely get a sniff on them, one fish caught and one follow despite the lake being fairly easy to catch fish on at times on other baits. So maybe I'm shooting a whole in my own theory but this lake the fish keep eating topwaters over and over...they haven't become conditioned to topwaters with the same action/vibration why should we think that they are going to stop eating big bucktails? maybe at times when they are in a neutral or negative mood they do will and do eat the subtle lure like a swimbait/dawg, but when fish are on/active is there any other bait that simply makes them chow it? i don't think so...at least none that i've ever heard of...
look at it this way too...if say all the guys throwing double tens this year have 3000 fish, (just an example), if those same guys had been throwing a mepps # 5, or Topraider, or spinnerbait or pick a bait, but one bait would they have boated the same 3000 fish? that is where I say not a chance...I'd bet a lot of money it would have been less...
i'm not saying they are magic, not at all, but when fish are on, there is no better bait...it has been a down year for #s in my boat and only 20% of the fish have come on big bucktails...but also some of the biggest!
all baits work, just gotta know when and where
sorry for the tangent...! |
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Location: Twin Cities | bn - 8/29/2009 8:42 AM
while I do agree with much of what you said Shane the simple fact is big fish keep getting caught on them over and over, the same fish keep eating them.
Could be a stocked vs naturally occurring thing too....they behave differently. |
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Location: Burlington, WI | Who's been working on the Shadillac? |
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| Shane Mason - 8/29/2009 7:26 AM
Why cant a musky learn to avoid something through negative reinforcement…I also think of the Larry Ramsell In Fisherman article on Eagle Lake where he got to play with the radio tagged giants all summer. That after capture they would vacate the area never to return to the area they were captured. Including one which when following a lure in another area spotted the green boat, left the saddle where she had been and headed out to the deepest water in the area.
We have one fish in our study so far that has been recaptured twice. It's a 48" female. It was caught on a double 10 the first time. It was caught on a double 10 the second time. It was caught on a double 10 the third time. Both recaptures were from AT MOST 100 yards away from the original point of capture. Guess where the fish is now? Same structure.
That said, this isn't a "giant" like the ones Larry and the researchers were studying, but it seems odd that though we pound that area and throw everything from big Reef Hawgs and Bulldawgs to Mag LOWriders and Weagles... It keeps getting caught on the same type of lure.
Sorry to take this thread off-course. Just thought I'd add to Shane and Brad's discussion. |
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| Good discussion anyway. I have also had caught the same fish on the same bait, on or near the same area. I am sure fish learn condition at different rates, and behave differently in different bodies of water. Got lakes where they wont touch rubber, got lakes where they don’t seem to like 10’s And the facts with the big blades and big fish can not be denied. And someone is usually throwing blades in my boat. But I also think its partly relative. Because many of the fisheries where they have made their mark didn’t exist 25+ years ago at least no where near what they are today. The tens are a powerful tool. But I have also noticed I have had to change things up a bit on certain blade loving lakes, where the tens have ruled of late and are starting to look like a native species. No shortage of people still throwing them. But judging by their complaints fish just aren’t eating much this year. I found we have had to change things up quite a bit to keep them eating. I have seen the same happen to rubber as well, first couple years of the Dawg, it was unreal, bordering on ridiculous. They are still eating them, but are they what they were 8 years ago? Had to learn a few more tricks a long the way, just like we are with the 10’s.
As far as swimbaits go, they are going to have their place. But like anything I would rather be throwing them now, than 10 years from now after they have chewed on them a few times.
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Location: Ft. Wayne Indiana | The Shadillac is a bait I have been working on and testing since last year. Lots of time spent on this bait to get it to run the way I wanted to. I will have them for sale this winter, starting out at the 2010 Chicago Musky Show. It's definately a sweet bait with a very nice shimmy and shake...looks yummy in the water and the muskies think so too!!!!
Edited by MikeHulbert 8/29/2009 10:16 PM
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| Nothing wrong with a little healthy competition. You will likely both learn a few things, become better fishermen and drink a few cold ones? There is no loser here...
Curious to hear how this turns out. Please post the details when the results are in! |
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