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| Message Subject: Wising up? | |||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32958 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | No, it's not 'splitting hairs' at all. Ulbian has it nailed, read his post more carefully. | ||
| jamesb |
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Posts: 68 | So if I said "the fish have become conditioned to not pay attention to the boat traffic" or "the fish have become trained to not pay attention to the boat traffic" -- what is the difference? Just because someone uses the word trained it doesn't mean that they are implying that someone was in the water making the muskys do tricks in exchange for rewards of crappies. The words are pretty much the same in this case. If I am training my body for a marathon or conditioning my body for a marathon it is the same thing -- same thing applies here. | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32958 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | No it doesn't. Let's address this so it makes sense. Red is what Ulbian said that will apply to my explanation. Blue is my response to your comments.
Here's what was said: Nature does not provide those same controls at a level to condition fish in the same way that you can train a dog. In order for conditioning to work the stimuli has to be repeated over and over under the same conditions. Throw in changing variables of temp, current, light penetration, speed of stimulus (your bait), etc. and your control is shot to pieces.
OK, you said: So if I said "the fish have become conditioned to not pay attention to the boat traffic" or "the fish have become trained to not pay attention to the boat traffic" -- what is the difference? 'Trained' implies a controlled environment where reward or punishment is present. In this case, the fish must either be bothered to the point of leaving, or adapt. They adapt, but peple make the mistake of assuming they will not. -- Just because someone uses the word trained it doesn't mean that they are implying that someone was in the water making the muskys do tricks in exchange for rewards of crappies. The words are pretty much the same in this case. They absolutely are not, the example of fish being trained was clear. The fact the environment in the lake prohibits a stabil and consistent environment prohibits 'training' from even being on the menu, and people confuse adaptation, conditioning, and training all the time.--If I am training my body for a marathon or conditioning my body for a marathon it is the same thing -- same thing applies here.-- No, the activity is a decision you made as an intelligent organism and activity you voluntarily undertake, and 'conditioning' the body is a completely different use of the word.--
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| jamesb |
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Posts: 68 | I guess I don't understand why you think that "training" has to happen in a controlled environment or done by a higher thinking organism. Obviously muskys are not training themselves by thinking about it in the human sense, but on their level their instincts may become trained to react in a certain way based on past experiences. Nobody knows how many times it takes for them to develop this as just like anything else it would vary from fish to fish. The fish aren't consciously making the decision as they don't reason, just react -- but the fish who are able to become trained/conditioned better than others have a better chance at survival. Again, it's impossible to know for sure what's going on and it's nothing but pure speculation by both you and me. | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32958 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | You are reading personal concepts in to the previous material that are not stated or even implied. Instincts are not something that your concept of 'training' can have any immediate effect upon. Instinct requires generations upon generations to develop (evolution), and is a far more complicated topic of discussion. Several studies have been successfully completed over a long period of time to indicate the number of generations exposed to a direct threat, and what it it takes to have the scent of that threat in the water create an instinctual avoidance response in a population of fish. I believe instinctive responses are generally considered completely different from a learned response. One needs be cautious when using that term in the case of lower organisms. Some insects are prodigious learners, but they still don't avoid a truck windshield. Instinctively heading to the correct area that features the correct substrate to spawn? That has been an issue in getting NR on stocked systems, if I remember correctly. Different deal all together from conditioning. It's not at all impossible to 'know what's going on', science has done a pretty good job. I would agree no one knows what a muskie is 'thinking'. Mostly because they don't, as we perceive it. Some of this may be a bit technically weak, it's been a few years since I delved into the argument in great detail, but I think ulbian, who certifiably is better educated than I on the subject, has it right. | ||
| jamesb |
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Posts: 68 | But by your theory then all muskies would act the exact same -- just like a robot. Sure, all things of a certain species have certain traits/instincts/characteristics -- but there is variation amongst the population. Of course there are some muskies that are better feeders, better at evading predators, etc. They didn't intentionally set out to "train" themselves, but something in their brain clicked just a little more than the next fish -- it is evolution in progress -- survival of the fittest. The muskies who are able to adapt to situations better will survive and therefore pass on their genes to next generation. | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32958 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | 'But by your theory then all muskies would act the exact same ' Uhhh, no. Again, you are assuming something based upon your own perception, and this isn't 'my theory'. The only thing you've said so far that I agree with is your last sentence, if you remove the words 'to situations'. By the way, welcome aboard. It' s a little early for this kind of debate, Winternet usually starts about Dec 15. As you can tell, this is a subject visited many times here over the years. | ||
| jamesb |
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Posts: 68 | Yep, I'm sure we could go around on this all night. See you at the next debate! | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32958 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Yes sir, you probably will. | ||
| Brad P |
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Posts: 833 | Very interesting comments in here. I would add to the concept of the uncontrolled environment the simple fact that the macro seasonal progression is different every year. Cold Spring, Warm Spring, Cool Summer / Hot summer, etc. That is the just the macro stuff. To say that a Musky's environment is uncontrolled is quite the understatement. I've began logging these trends in addition to my daily notes in an effort to see if anything can be learned from it. Not quite the hot bait discussion of the OP, but I would imagine it is no less relevant to putting fish in the net. | ||
| esoxaddict |
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Posts: 8866 | From an evolutionary standpoint, "desirable" traits get passed on from generation to generation, and "undesirable" traits do not, because the animals with those undesirable traits don't survive long enough to reproduce. Over many generations, the more cautious muskies would theoretically have a greater survival rate, have greater reproduction, and that trait would become more predominant in the overall population. In theory, muskies COULD evolve to have an aversion to lures. That's much different from individual fish "learning" to avoid lures, however. And it all goes out the window when you introduce catch and release to the equation. | ||
| Sidejack |
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Posts: 1082 Location: Aurora | Something else to consider - Educators have known for decades that memory/the ability to recall a specific event and details of that event are infinitely improved when attached to emotion or trauma. The following method worked great for a time but after countless lawsuits they learned they couldn't dangle candy bars with treble hooks in front of the students during lectures, pull them up through the ceiling into tanks filled with water, and fondle them excessively while taking multiple pictures. Hence the introduction of the parent permission slip.. Edited by Sidejack 11/16/2013 10:10 AM | ||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32958 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Anthropomorphism at it's finest... | ||
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