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Posts: 239
Location: Elroy, Wisconsin | Lets take a more positive approach to some of these older record fish and fishermen for a change. The historical musky men like Art Lawton, Len Hartman, Louie Spray, Cal Johnson ect. contributed much to the sport and are responsible for attracting thousands of current day musky fishermen to the sport. I don't think anyone can argue that these historical figures made a significant contribution to the lore and legend of musky fishing.
In my opinion it does little good at this point to denigrate these pioneers for what they accomplished or maybe more accurately what they claimed to accomplish. The history of musky fishing is a long and fascinating one. These guys should at the very least have our respect. No one can argue that they caught some very big fish indeed.
It does the sport a disservice to ridicule and belittle these historical figures as they are long gone. The legends remain as their legacy to us and like all ledgens, post- mortum scrutiny is less interesting and takes a certain mystique from the sport we all love.
Your millage may vary,
Mudpuppy |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | The records are falsifications but there is no denying the Hartman's and Lawton's knew how to catch muskies. The amazing thing to me is that they did it out of 14 and 16 foot peecutters. There have been times when we were driven back in a 26 foot boat.
Edited by horsehunter 3/10/2014 11:12 AM
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Posts: 77
| I agree wholeheartedly. I'd throw the negative press on the city of Hayward in with the guys mentioned above. Think about the hundreds of thousands (if not millions) of people exposed to musky fishing through this city and the people that have lived here. I know there are different opinions of Pete Maina (Hayward native) on this forum but he has been one of the (if not the most) influential people on the planet promoting the sport of musky fishing since the 1980's and he continues to reside here to this day. I think the positive things this city (Hayward, WI) has done and continues to do for the sport of musky fishing far outweigh the negative things that many people on this forum have continued to point to. |
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Posts: 20278
Location: oswego, il | Agreed, we should be selective on what records stand and which ones should not. Lawton, no, spray, Johnson yes. Let people believe what Hayward wants them to. What a load of crap! I give.credit to Hartman for coming clean.
Edited by ToddM 3/10/2014 2:44 PM
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Posts: 4342
Location: Smith Creek | Ol' Pete was pretty outspoken about his opinion of the records. Ask him how the town of Hayward reacted to that.
He dam near got tarred and feathered by the town you're defending. |
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Posts: 32955
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Nope.
Reality is sometimes a hard pill to swallow. Let the facts land as they may, and the public make a decision based upon them. If the 'facts' are misrepresented according to one side of the issue or another, then it's the responsibility of a journalist or representative from the other camp to correct.
I feel the Hayward caught fish should stand as 'historical records'. That's my personal view, but I have no problem with anyone who decides that the current record is acceptable until the issue is pressed to the facts published to date....then OFM's responsibilities command publication of the facts as they are presented.
That's what MuskieFIRST has done and will continue to do whether anyone from either camp likes it or not.
Personally, I feel the reality of the modern day World Record Muskie as registered to date is an impressive 58 pound fish from Michigan. Anyone can believe what they may, mine is a studied opinion based upon the evidence. If yours is based upon lore, that's cool. I won't argue you shouldn't if you don't argue I shouldn't.
As long as harm is not caused, who really cares either way? However, harm has been, according to BOTH sides, caused, so the story remains alive and well.
If you like, I'll take the time to go through the entire CFMS and the folks involved in that mess, how I was personally threatened and attacked, and how the facts, when they hit the light of day, blew that thing clean to Hades. Then came the debate about the Lawton DQ, the resulting investigation by the WRMA asking all records to be held to an even more detailed standard, and the disappointing rejection of that and other compelling evidence with no more than a 'go away'.
A discussion in great detail is probably not going to help your argument as by all appearances the events, and how they went down, look to be attempts to boost business on the Chip with little regard for reality. Appearances. That's the key word.
Whether it is or is not, the whole thing looks bad, and there you have it, the crux of the issue.
I spoke with John, whom I have no personal problem with, and recommended he clear up what he feels are misconceptions. What I received was a letter claiming Larry Ramsell is misrepresenting the facts with a couple examples that seem to make no difference as to the veracity of the records.
1) the amount Spray was compensated for his record was $30 in prizes, not $3000.
2) That Cal Johnson was not personally against the Malo muskie in 1954 as Cal had been deceased for 2 years.
I will ask that Larry address those two articles, and that both journalists be given due respect in any following discussion. Please, let's stay to the facts and stay away from the personal infighting... as it clouds the issue.
The last paragraph states that any publication that 'showcasing such incorrect and hurtful statements about others serves only to diminish the credibility of any medium that prints it'.
The same commentary was sent to me (if one chooses to take that road) for the ENTIRE CFMS debacle...and the same statements were made along side threats of lawsuits with no real basis in fact, physical threats, attacks on my family and friends, and worse...about us publishing that information. The point is, this isn't the first time I've heard that. Our editorial stance is and will be:
BOTH CAMPS:
Present your rebuttals. Present reasonably, or as close to reasonably as you are able, and we will publish it.
I DID the due diligence on the entire debate and confirmed that something is definitely amiss. Some facts on both sides might be misrepresented, but so far none seem to indicate we should not publish the story as it evolves.
Want your position cleared up? Stop insisting no one should discuss it and provide the information that is needed to make your case.
I feel it's important to know what our sport's real record potential is for many reasons. I am compelled by my own experience, my own eyes, and the evidence as it stands to believe that isn't and never was 70 pounds or anywhere near that mark. That said, the times up until shortly after World War Two were very different than today, and reality no longer becomes such as easily from simple publication. I do hate revisionist history, but at this point, that isn't what is happening here.
If one is claiming:
If the records are indeed not real it's OK because so much more has been done by the community to grow the sport, then I'd counter that it isn't Hayward, WI or the residents living in that area accused of perpetrating lore as historical fact, or conversely, claiming that the lore was NOT historical fact. It is s singularly the Hall and representatives, and their detractors. A broader brush stroke is not deserved.
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Posts: 173
| I liked Len. I like Pete . I have fished the Chip but won't again. Not so much because of the fishing but the super saturation of the World Record hoaxes is more than I like to deal with . I hear the same distaste from other muskie guys . Wonder if the over promotion has a net positive or negative impact on Hayward ?
I think Micah would benefit from a recap of the CFMS and the impact it had on some really good people. |
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Posts: 140
Location: Northern Illinois | Check out page 22 of Feb./March Musky Hunter Issue. Shows half page add for
Hayward, WI. that reads "Hayward,WI. Home of 5 World record Muskies". Seems to
me they push that line pretty hard. I guess people are free to promote however they
see fit. Like everything these days, it's all about the benjamens. Doesn't bother me,
I would give my left nut to be able to fish up there in God's country everyday. |
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Location: Sawyer County, WI |
The whole town tried to tar and feather him ?
Flambeauski - 3/10/2014 2:50 PM
Ol' Pete was pretty outspoken about his opinion of the records. Ask him how the town of Hayward reacted to that.
He dam near got tarred and feathered by the town you're defending. |
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Posts: 35
| With all of the information and research that has been done on the world record muskies, can somebody (maybe Larry Ramsell) please explain as simply as possible the following:
1) Why hasn't there been a decision made (in the court system) as to whether or not
the world records are real or false?
2) What would it take to get this done and clear everything up?
3) What authority would make such a decision (courts, IGFA panel)?
I'm can't comprehend why the records are still recognized when there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that suggests they are false.
Also, Larry, in your opinion, what do you think is the heaviest muskie ever caught and how much do you think it weighed. |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | I don't think the courts are concerned with fish records.
There are numerous record keeping organizations and they all have their own record and their own rules.
There is the IGFA, The Freshwater Fishing Hall of Fame, and each State and Province ( Ontario's kept by Ontario Federation of Anglers and Hunters) as well as the MDMWR group. If I caught a 75 lb. muskie on wire line IGFA would not accept it but Ontario would.
I currently hold the record for the largest muskie released by someone living on Old Troy Rd. Tweed Ontario ( only about 12 houses and a OMNR office )
Edited by horsehunter 3/10/2014 7:04 PM
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Posts: 410
Location: Wakefield, MI | Out of curiosity, what was the recognized record before the Spray/Lawton era? |
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Location: Eastern Ontario | There were about 4 or 5 people that traded records on a weekly basis I don't know if any were legit. Maybe Mr. Ramsell does.
God I wish I could get the boat out of the snow and off this computer
Edited by horsehunter 3/10/2014 7:09 PM
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Posts: 20278
Location: oswego, il | Anyone that says leave the old records alone and does not demand Lawton's record returned to the top has no legs to stand on.
Edited by ToddM 3/10/2014 7:57 PM
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Posts: 1760
Location: new richmond, wi. & isle, mn | Do you suppose Bernie Madoff is considered a pioneering legend in the investment world? |
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Posts: 358
| If, ifs and buts were candy and nuts we would all have a Merry Christmas. Anyone who cheats and falsifies claims to gain recognition and a record, trophy or their name in the paper, etc. has to live with their fantasy. The legitimate ones know who they are and can hold their heads high, congrats to them. |
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Location: Sawyer County, WI | sworrall - 3/10/2014 3:05 PM
If the records are indeed not real it's OK because so much more has been done by the community to grow the sport, then I'd counter that it isn't Hayward, WI or the residents living in that area accused of perpetrating lore as historical fact, or conversely, claiming that the lore was NOT historical fact. It is s singularly the Hall and representatives, and their detractors. A broader brush stroke is not deserved.
Worth reading again. Thanks Steve. |
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Posts: 1300
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | Mr. Worrall: As I understand your post, the following are the 2 points of contention with Mr. Dettloff:
1) the amount Spray was compensated for his record was $30 in prizes, not $3000.
2) That Cal Johnson was not personally against the Malo muskie in 1954 as Cal had been deceased for 2 years.
LR: As for number 1, that information came from the WRMA Spray Protest Report, not from me. It was either an error by them or Dettloff is wrong. Jerry Newman will have to respond to that one.
As for number 2, I have never personally said that Cal Johnson was against the Malo muskie (another bogus Hayward fish, but it never made record status). I likely reported in my book about the Malo fish; "Is This The World Record Muskellunge?", that same was credited to Cal Johnson in the day.
This latter point has nothing to do with the other bogus Hayward records.
bcram55 wrote: "
1) Why hasn't there been a decision made (in the court system) as to whether or not
the world records are real or false?
2) What would it take to get this done and clear everything up?
3) What authority would make such a decision (courts, IGFA panel)?
I'm can't comprehend why the records are still recognized when there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that suggests they are false.
Also, Larry, in your opinion, what do you think is the heaviest muskie ever caught and how much do you think it weighed.
LR: #1: Because it has never been taken to court. Got "deep pockets?" I'd love to go there with it!!
#2: See second part of #1.
#3: Obviously if it went to court, either a Judge or Jury would have to render a decision...let's go!! The keepers of the Spray and Johnson records have spoken. But remember, both are controlled by people with agenda's and Politics reign supreme!
I can't "comprehend why the records are still recognized when there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that suggests they are false" either. It keeps me awake at night sometimes.
As for your last question, my answer remains 58-pounds, 58-inches that can be proven beyond a doubt.
milje wrote: "Out of curiosity, what was the recognized record before the Spray/Lawton era?"
LR: From 1929 to 1939 there were a series of record fish caught in Lake of the Woods.
ToddM wrote: "Anyone that says leave the old records alone and does not demand Lawton's record returned to the top has no legs to stand on."
LR: BINGO Todd!! Lots of crying about Spray and Johnson, but everyone seems to forget that Hayward's John Dettloff started this by getting Lawton's fish removed (with far less evidence than presented by the WRMA against the Spray and Johnson fish) to clear the way for Louie's return to the top of the heap.
Take them all down or put them all back up!!
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Posts: 1300
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | Note: I spent over 1/2 of Volume I of my 3rd Edition "Compendium" showing the lengths Dettloff went to to get Lawton's record removed, proving him to be the one with many mis-conceptions and inaccuracies and biased reporting and also providing the massive amount of evidence against the Spray records. The WRMA Spray report is also all there to see and can be found FREE at:
http://www.larryramsell.com/WorldRecord.html and linked from there.
For the WRMA Johnson report, go here:
http://www.larryramsell.com/WorldRecord.html
If Mr. Dettloff has a problem with any of the material in my book, let's hear it. I'd be happy to rebut anything He feels is inaccurate. |
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| Congress should take over and investigate whether those fish were on steroids... |
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Posts: 1300
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | As I reviewed this and the other related threads, Mr. Langkamp's continued theme of "negative Hayward press" keeps coming thru. His complaining is understandable, since he is a new guy in a town that he has chosen to make his living in, and isn't happy with these negatives.
This is somewhat my fault, as I haven't done more in these threads to dispel the belief that the entire town of Hayward is involved in the sham. Nothing could be further from the truth. As Mr. Worrall has pointed out, it all stems from the leaders of the Hall of Fame and the Hall of Fame board. 99% of the town's people are blameless! Oh yes, there are a few "enabler's" and a fair number of business people here who are afraid to say anything since they are trying to make a living here too, but it is not they who make the advertising decisions.
When I asked a member of the board of the Vacation and Convention Bureau (VCB) about the continued use of the "Home of 5 World Record Muskies" slogan and the related "false advertising", I was told, "Oh that's just Dettloff." But, it was he and the other VCB board members that allow it to continue. Same with the Chamber of Commerce board. Interestingly, when I did a little digging, I learned that there is, on each of these boards, a relative of a Hall of Fame board member! No wonder Hall board president Dettloff gets his way. And of course Dettloff has always been influential with the Chippewa Flowage association and related entities.
So no Micah, it isn't most of the good folks of Hayward at the root cause of this issue, it is the 1% that is in control of the advertising and the business folks that give them a pass or just plain don't know what is going on.
God forbid that the other resort communities of Northern Wisconsin decide to take Hayward to court (as did Boulder Junction over the "Musky Capitol of the World" slogan many years ago...and won) for false advertising...advertising that is unfairly taking business away from those towns!
Allow me to repeat here a statement that was contained in my recent article in the NEWS section that started this recent round of banter:
"Since I live here (in Hayward), let me make one thing perfectly clear…If you want to pursue muskies in one of the most beautiful and aesthetic settings in the musky world and have a better than average chance of catching one of average size, more so now than in the old days, Hayward, Wisconsin is the place for you…just don’t come here with the idea of catching one of world record class size, regardless of what you believe the current world record to be."
NOTE: I need to make a couple of corrections to a post I made late last nite and it is too late to edit. The WRMA Spray and Johnson Protest reports can be found here:
http://www.worldmuskiealliance.com/spray
http://www.worldmuskiealliance.com/johnson
Edited by Larry Ramsell 3/11/2014 6:52 AM
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Location: Aurora | It's been said before but you should pack up & head out before you wake up to a 15 foot chainsaw carving of a muskie on fire in your yard. We're in need of our own Muskie Hall of Fame here in MN and if the family's on the fence about moving here, our local music scene should seal the deal. You can squat at my place until you git yer feet under ya but bring yer own adult beverages unless you're as fond of high end tequila as I am. |
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Posts: 456
Location: Kansas City BBQ Capitol of the world | Did Len Hartman catch 6 over 60? I think I read that somewhere.
Ron |
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Posts: 1300
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | rjhyland: NO! |
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Location: 31 | SW: 1) the amount Spray was compensated for his record was $30 in prizes, not $3000. 2) That Cal Johnson was not personally against the Malo muskie in 1954 as Cal had been deceased for 2 years.
I will ask that Larry address those two articles, and that both journalists be given due respect in any following discussion. Please, let's stay to the facts and stay away from the personal infighting... as it clouds the issue. LR: As for number 1, that information came from the WRMA Spray Protest Report, not from me. It was either an error by them or Dettloff is wrong. Jerry Newman will have to respond to that one. This amount of the prize money is a moot point, and was clearly addressed in the rebuttal: http://worldmuskiealliance.com/static/pdf/WRMA_Rebuttal_to_Hall.pdf The fact that John Detloff is still contesting such petty things demonstrates to me that after 9 years he is still struggling with finding anything of substance to pick at in the scientific components of the WRMA Spray report. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find out if he attempted to swindle more professors of mathematics with his fuzzy math like he did in 2005. “On January 16, 2006, the Hall of Fame announced that it was upholding the record. Three mathematicians were quoted in the Hall's report, Professor Joseph Gallian of University of Minnesota at Duluth, Professor Dorian Goldfeld of Columbia University, and me. We are all three concerned that the Hall did not fully understand the results of our analyses and also are all concerned by the manner in which the Hall chose to communicate with us.” http://www.ima.umn.edu/~arnold/muskie/ "The hall's report that is posted on their Web site (www.freshwater-fishing.org) does not include thorough, good science, because we were not asked to do thorough, good science…In general, I don't like science to be used as a tool to manipulate opinions," Arnold said. "You should never go to several experts and cherry pick the results you want." -Dr. Douglas Arnold, March 4, 2006 It's well documented that Spray received two Martin outboard motors in 1949, as well as plenty of other cash, prizes, and TONS of extra bar business from these bogus records, this alone points to him being monetarily motivated. So, I'm completely baffled why he would even mention it unless he wants us to somehow believe that Mr. Spray only received these smaller $30 prizes, while his partner in muskie crime, Mr. Cal Johnson, received a brand new car for his 1949 world record. The evidence overwhelmingly points to Mr. Spray having turned 30-40lb muskies into cold hard cash by manufacturing them into 60-70 lb Frankenstein mounts, and when he was finished with the mounts, they burned up in a fire when he was the only one around, and later collected $15,000 insurance money for them. Seriously, if you want to believe that Spray was simply “lucky enough” to catch 3 world records just a short drive from his house, feel free to so… but please don't ask anyone who's looked at the evidence to turn their back on the truth, and accept such nonsense.
(Spray letter about bad mount.JPG)
Attachments
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 Spray letter about bad mount.JPG (78KB - 296 downloads)
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