|
|
Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | I have about 37 years in chasing muskies out of which 20 plus I guided for them for part of my living. Lately, I've seen a proliferation of material that tries to pin down when, where, and why a muskie/walleye/bass is where it is and active and by that information dictate where one should be fishing. Most of what I've read about this I can list dozens of exceptions to, and in specifics have boated BIG fish in areas opposed to where the literature of the day says I should be fishing. In other words, a parameter may be to a degree correct in that some of the fish are there some of the time on certain waters, but certainly shouldn't be considered an absolute. There are just plain too many variables, IMHO.
Someone is always trying to bracket the fish and have them be at least by one or two parameters 'on location'. Generally, yes, there are always weather patterns and principles that will give a guy a good start on some waters, but those are not and never should be considered hard and fast 'rules'. Those patterns and principles have been printed many times in one form or another since the -Fishing Facts- golden years, and of course in -In Fisherman-. I sometimes think that if one lives the predictions, it becomes a self fulfilling prophesy.
Just an observation:
Many times 'overthinking' the 5 W's and the H ( who, what, where, when, How and Why) from any written piece or combinations of same can cloud what has always been good advice on the water. Watch the weather and KNOW your weather and the Muskie's reaction to it on the water you are fishing, KNOW the baitfish, and 'eliminate water' as you look for active fish. Fish where you expect them to be, AND where you don't. Use lures matched to the water you are fishing, don't try to make a deep presentation work in 3' and slop. Know the water VERY well, and understand what is underneath your rig, but even more importantly, what's out in front of the rig as well. LEARN BOAT CONTROL, and then LEARN it again. Doesn't do any good to know where the fish are if that part of the presentation is off the mark. Learn what current means, and what it can do to narrow your search for a really big fish. Learn to be versatile and use several targeted presentations, it's too easy and restrictive as a result to use one bait all the time.
Challenge the 'rules', and break them in your daily on the water muskie search. As Steve Van Lieshout says, the only rule in muskie fishing is---There Are No Rules.
What do you think? |
|
| |
|
Location: Athens, Ohio | I think I agree.
I think if I'd paid more attention to boat control last Monday I'd have a good fish in the boat instead of streaking away under it.
I think I learned something then, and I learn a lot each time you post thoughts like this.
Thank you! m |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1764
Location: Ogden, Ut | I think that's great advice to a point, Steve. But one must also be cognizant of where they sit on the whole muskie fishing proficiency continuum. Let's just use me for an example. I just started this game a few years ago and have had all of my muskie fishing knowledge amassed while fishing 1 water, for tigers (at least prior to me finding these message boards). Now imagine if I had shown up at the Goon outing with my meager bank of knowledge, based on my experience w/ tigers out here. I had NOTHING in my arsenal of baits and accumulated knowledge that would have helped me much there. I had caught 1 muskie on a spinnerbait (bass-sized) and had used a glider for a grand total of about 10 minutes prior to me showing up there. Now I didn't exactly tear them up while I was there  , but, I did feel that I had a good chance due to the info I had gleaned off this message board. I envy those of you w/ a bunch of places to fish and a vast array of techniques and opportunities to use them. I guess the point that I am trying to make is that I need to get solid on the fundamentals before I try to do a lot of 'rule breaking'. If indeed, I do what has been successful for me in the past, and it's not working now, by all means start tweaking! You bring up great points about achieving proficiency in the fundamentals (beyond how to work a glide bait) in knowing your weather, boat control, current, and baitfish. I really don't think there are shortcuts for me. I have to put my time in before I allow myself the luxury and confidence to chase these new 'gut feelings' I get now and then. Granted, my training as a biologist has allowed me to make some shortcuts w/ regard to fish behavior and predator/prey relationships, but I still have to pay some dues. The Goon broke every rule that my mind had established for me; I think I'll stick to the rule book for a while! 
Sorno
I do admit, however, I get really frustrated w/ people that read about or hear something really innovative and dismiss it off hand and casually say, "That won't work here."
Edited by sorenson 9/9/2005 3:22 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 8866
| This ties in nicely to the "what have you learned this year" thread on the Fix website.
This year I had a realization that's very similar to what you're talking about. Here it is:
----- It was a paradigm shift in the way I approach musky fishing. Up until very recently I focused all my energy into finding the right color, right pattern, the right lure at the right time, how to effectively present that lure, developing the confidence that the lure I've chosen out of the hundred or so others I could have chosen is the right one. Then I'd think about all the articles, the videos, tips and tricks I learned here and on the other sites. I will work this lure this particular way and make the fish want to eat it, because such and such a guide, or such and such a magazine said it is so...
Now, there is merit in all that, and I'm certain the vast knowledge base of resources I've tapped into had helped me become a more efficient angler, but I had a realization:
ALL FISH ARE FISH. I've spent my whole life developing my skills in making various species of fish eat things that aren't food. I already know how to make fish bite, I don't need to bury myself in lure selection and presentation. I can trust my instincts in that area.
I need to learn something ELSE:
I need to learn how and where to FIND muskies. THAT is my new focus.
FIND the fish!
It's a whole new sport for me now. Wind, currents, structure, baitfish, water temps, lake maps...
Perhaps its a natural progression of a musky angler, but I've mentally freed myself from worrying so much about how to CATCH the fish, and shifted my focus on becoming efficient at FINDING the fish.
I have much to learn! ----
At this point I firmly believe that finding the fish is the single most important factor in your success. No matter how good you are, what tools you have, how good your boat control skills are, etc. You just can't catch fish where fish ain't.
Jeff
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Don't misunderstand, I feel the articles and shows I am talking about are intended to be directed at those who consider themselves to be at least on a 6 or more out of 10 proficiency scale. That's a problem with any hard copy, it doesn't adjust to questions or level of understanding. Obviously, experience is the best teacher, but one has to be willing to do what others are not doing to learn what's 'outside of the box'.
The learning curve IS part of this, I think. Anglers who are either new to the sport or not experienced with a particualr scenario will read the mentioned material and believe that they have a ready made key to the door lock. If and when that isn't the magic, the assumption is that the fish 'didn't go'. Then someone crushes the whole deal by coming off the same water on the same day with mulitple fish, using a completely different presentation that might not fit the accepted protocol.
One thing I've learned from covering walleye tournaments is that there are usually a half dozen different patterns at once producing good fish on any one day. The anglers out there are the best in the world, and have proven ability to catch fish under almost any condition. It's the trick of sticking and keeping stuck the quality fish that wins. LOTS of outside the conventional walleye wisdom thinking going on there. I think there are quite a few parallels in the world of muskie angling, too.
So I actually agree with sorenson, but carry the concept forward from that point. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 4266
| It's like hunting trophy whitetails....Think Long, Think Wrong
You need a basic understanding of the biology of the species you are persuing.
A basic understanding of their habits, and then let your predatory instincts take over.
We are the top of the food chain after all.
Beav
Edited by Beaver 9/9/2005 2:59 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 1936
Location: Eau Claire, WI | Got to agree... In my seminars one of the things I try to convey is to have good fundamental knowledge of forage, prey, and structure elements, good boat handling skills, and to constantly be observant to the environment around you, and do not fall into the tunnel-vision paradigms that plagued this sport for many years. Remember, they are still a fish..!
By keeping an open mind and trying different techniques, you may be surprised on what you can find to be a productive presentation under varying conditions. Some of them may even become your go-to pattern for a given situation. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1764
Location: Ogden, Ut | Sure would like to see more on this one...I need to get my variety vicariously through YOU.
C'mon some of you 6+ guys and gals - post. Rules or no Rules?
S. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Here's an example of fish that break the rules. I fish a 500 acre lake here in Oneida county that has plenty of deep water, good rock structure, small islands, and good weeds. The water is dark, so the weedline is in about 5'. The weed types are cabbage based, but there's a pretty good amount of junk weed shallow. Perch based forage.
Most rigs I see on that water are fishing the edge and first 30' of the weeds. If they are fishing the rocks, I see them hitting the edges from a casting distance away. Conventional wisdom or the summer pattern suggests deep edges and weedlines, you know the standard perception. I've caught muskies there, that's for sure, but most of the really good fish I take on that puddle come from...
less than 3' of water. IN the slop, a full casting distance shallower than most boats fish. Or...
INSIDE the rock edges, staged right in the middle of the day on the back side of a rock bar or saddle in 2' to 4'.
Best conditions for this water? Conventional wisdom states a front coming in with good wind, cloudy to partly cloudy skies, the classic pattern. Fish the cabbage edges and the rock edges, hit the bay weedlines, and you are righteous, correct?
I do my best on evenings when it's been hot and near flat, afternoon to evening fishing the waters shaded by reflection first, in other words the edges that have an east to SE face in the evening. Theedz has probably noticed that I fish those edges in the evening there, and that's the reason why. There's a few spot on the spot locations that have ALL the mentioned stuff, what is now for some reason being called a 'complex' in articles, etc.
Here's a trick. This sounds complicated, but it really isn't. Any lake is not much more than a field filled with water. One needs to acquire the ability to think 3-D, not water surface. Think about the structure in the area you are fishing as you would if you were bird hunting or bunny hunting without a dog. Get the water out of your head, that's to hold up your boat and allow the fish to live. Where is the best cover? Where are the 'convergence' points? Would/could a fish move into a 'shallow' area that a narrow band of deeper water (a ditch in your mental field image) and stage on the first shoreline break in the slop almost 60 yards from the weedline?
What's the deal on this lake with some of the really high quality fish so shallow even into near ice-up? There is a series of 'steps' in littoral zone to the primary break, each with a unique type of cover. In at least three places on the North shore those steps converge, and the fish can and do go VERY shallow in excellent cover. There is an insect that the perch really like up in that stuff, so they are there.
One area actually has a rock bar face that drops to 13' in half a casting distance, horseshoe shaped on the inside, L shaped on the outside, with a sand saddle between shore and the rocks that drops to 6' on the BACK side of the rock bar. There's a sand/gravel hump about 20 yards across just to the south of the saddle with slop weeds, and a small ditch leading from the center of that saddle to the center of the west end of the rocks and 6' of water of the east face INSIDE that rock bar. Oh yeah, there we go!! Big fish there. On the east side of the inside horseshoe, there's a narrow ditch going through the center of the rock bar out to the 3' slop I spoke of earlier. Go 10' the wrong way sneaking through that slot and you are aground. Big fish in the funnel on both ends.
Are there fish elsewhere, like on the South shore where weeds are at a premium and rock sheer breaks are the rule? Sure, and in pretty good numbers too. There the classic approach works just fine as long as one is willing to get a bit tighter to the rocks than one might be used to. Same with the other rock/weed structures on the lake, but I take them apart from every conceivable direction, changing the presentaion direction at least three times on that same area every time I fish it. Sometimes it's the third try that gets the action.
Norm, ever see this sort of thing on Pelican?
The Goon has so much of this sort of thing it sometimes makes my hookset twitch. |
|
| |
|
| I have caught alot of muskies in my life. If I ever figure it out, I'll take up golf and I hate golf. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 20281
Location: oswego, il | Give me a lake in good condition, give me sunrise and sunset and that is all you need to catch a musky, provided it has them! |
|
| |
|
Posts: 1438
| Amen Darrel
Edited by theedz155 9/10/2005 8:26 PM
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 63
| Steve this is a great posting, I’ve seen you talk many times for our club. If I’ve taken anything away from those talks.
Its
1. Don’t give the fish human attributes
2. On articles or any other info you may read or hear, break it apart, ask yourself WHY this should work.
Thanks for all the info over the years!
Lance
|
|
| |
|
| Darn steve. that's some pretty heavy stuff. i just learned a ton.
any advice on rivers/flowages..i know current is THE factor, but i've seen them in other areas too.
not many people talk about river fishing for muskies. personally, i love it. very challenging.
what iv'e learned on the river i fish..any shallow structure within 50 or so yards of deep (10 feet or better) will usually be holding fish. if they aint there, they're in the hole, or on the edge staging to eat. sounds simple....then factor in current. all heck breaks loose. i love it! |
|
| |
|
Posts: 358
| I have had this same thought on many occasions, and that is I believe that we musky guys/gals tend to over analyize situations too much. Color? Bait type? Location? Retrieve speed? Depth? I also believe that we do this simply because we are human and have the capability to reason, the fish dont. A musky is at the top of the fresh water aquatic food chain, and its only fear is to be eaten by a bigger musky, other than that, it can do whatever it wants, where it wants, and when it wants. Sure, nature itself can somewhat predict where they should be, what they should be eating, and when, but its still up to nature itself to align these things (and others) to make them all come together at the same time. As a musky angler, the articles that you read can make it even more confusing. Techniques that work, say out East, may not work as well in the midwest. Tricks, tips that work on LOTW may not work out East, so on and so forth.
Here is how I see it. Learn the basics, meaning a small variety of time proven baits. Learn your local waters that you are fishing. You control the boat, it doesnt control you. Spend as much time on the water educating yourself, and take notes, LOTS OF THEM!! Explore parts of the lake that dont fit the mold, and lastly enjoy every single minute that you are out there. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 127
Location: NW burbs of Chicago | There was a lot of talk this weekend about the full moon: speaking of overthinking it, I know that everyone gets excited when there's a full moon and the muskies will be going. What were people's experiences with that?
Crash McG |
|
| |
|
Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Too many other variables, IMHO. Steve Van Lieshout says it best:
Best time to go Muskie fishing? When you can. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 16632
Location: The desert | Just wanted to thank Steven and everyone adding to this topic....I'm a relatively newbie to musky fishing even though I have fished them for about 4 years now.....just the wrong way.....so I am trying to catch up on the learning curve. I would agree that the best time to go musky fishing is anytime you can! Thanks for the great info guys! Keep it comin'!
Mike |
|
| |
|
Posts: 2361
| I read your original post and was going to reply, but then I thought about it, and then thought about it some more and eventually narrowed my response down to these two points.
#1 I NEVER fish where I THINK muskies are not.
If I cannot create some scenario that at least vaguely suggests a fish in the vicinity of my bait, I try and save the cast and move on, marshalling my time on more productive spots.
#2 I think your comments are really looking at fishermen, and their inability to analyze at times both written, and on the water inputs.
As an example of the above, I recently read the MHMs August/Sept issue. I got nothing useful out of the issue relating to my fishing, that I didn't already know. Lots of articles are written simply because space needs to be filled. In a weak issue you can see some really weak articles, and some are written by very good fisherman. Some good fisherman, when they don't have much to say, do write what I consider crackpot articles. It can be an unfortunate read for newbies.
Analyzing water is another place where trying to apply theory to your fishing water may make you draw a big blank. 1,000 casts will almost always beat 1,000 words when it comes to understanding a home lake. I think though, that the combination of 1,000 words AND 1,000 CASTS can be very productive methodology.
I have mixed feelings about your premise of over thinking your fishing. I am probably more of the opinion that we often do not think enough, in a critical manner, when sorting out our presentation and choice of areas within the population of areas and presentations available to us. As I move down the fishing path I find myself disregarding many articles and many new baits probably BECAUSE they complicate what I am doing and need to do to catch fish. I am open to new concepts WHEN they make sense and WHEN they logically fit into my fishing grounds. I am doing a lot of analyzing as I fish during a day and may end up doing something radically off the norm as I make connections while fishing(that to me is thinking not over thinking). Sometimes I know that I have fished the way I like to fish and it has cost me numbers and/or quality(that is probably under thinking). I have at times come up with real specialized strategies that seem to never quite have the specialized conditions neccessary to make them successful(that is my view of over thinking).
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | FSF,
That's a bullseye, sir. |
|
| |
|
Posts: 793
Location: Ames, Iowa | Just my 2cents
Been fishing for a long time -40 years- have only caught 2 muskies, but I'm pretty much a 2nd year rookie in this endeavor. I would say that muskie fishermen are the ultimate thinkers of fishermen. We have a difficult objective to reach, but we love the process, and so we put a lot of headwork into it while we are in the boat and afterwards. It's said that teachers make more than a thousand decisions a day in the classroom. After a day in the boat, I've often thought how many of my decisions were right and how many were wrong- but one thing I know- I made a lot of decisions, am mentally fatigued, and have to take a break to analyze my decision making. Isn't this self questioning the essence of learning? If it is, can we state that muskie fishermen learn more about fishing than most/all other fishermen? Please note the subject of this thread. They are not discussing these matters at BullheadFirst and at LargemouthFirst.
What brings you back to this site night after night?
All the best,
Don |
|
| |
|
| What brings me back every night?......LOL, I'll have to think about that for a bit. |
|
| |
|
Location: Des Moines IA | 1. Cheap Baits
2. Even cheaper knowledge
3. Overwhelming desire to learn more, so I can catch more
4. Getting the oppurtunity to fish with new people, learn from their style, adapt some of their way of fishing into my way of fishing
|
|
| |
|
Posts: 829
Location: Maple Grove, MN | I started fishing Muskies 20 years ago and have caught a few fish over the years.
I've always been a thinker and developed a system the past few years that consistently put my boat on fish. For instance, there was not one outing on Minnetonka last year without someone getting at least one good Muskie to hit. I thought I had it down pat. But then this year things changed and my "system" no longer worked so well. I found myself struggling just to locate fish and had my first two outings ever on Minnetonka without seeing a Muskie. And I got totally blanked on other lakes as well. Yeah, it was hot and I didn't get on the water much, but still my "system" didn't work for much of the year.
What I learned in all this is that fishing needs to be first and foremost fun. Thinking so much can take away from the fun and can actually add a bit if stress. Right now I've gone back to just strapping on one of my favorite spinner baits, fishing the wind-blown areas, and am having lots of fun. I have enough stress in my life and don't need to get stressed about fishing. After all, its just a hobby and is supposed to be fun.
At the end of the day, what are we fishing for? Is it not for fun?
Good luck all.
Edited by Herb_b 9/21/2005 6:56 AM
|
|
| |
