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| Message Subject: Cave Run Certified Scale Situation | |||
muskie_man |
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Posts: 1237 Location: South Portsmouth, KY | Hello.Some of the guys I know are trying to get a certified scale put in at least one of the marinas at Cave Run. A scale would be great if you think you have a state record you can weigh it and see or if you weigh it and you see that it is not you can release the fish right back into the lake. As most of you know Tony Grant had the problem of having to drive around for a while to try to find a certified scale. You can help out by emailing to the addresses listed on the link below telling them about the situation. The more letters that they get the better! This will be towards a good cause and thanks for helping out! http://pub90.ezboard.com/fkentuckyanglingforumfrm2.showMessage?topi... | ||
| mikie |
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Location: Athens, Ohio | I'm glad you are working on this. I don't know a lot about record keeping but seems I heard that several states are going with length & girth as opposed to weight so the fish can be witnessed then released. Maybe a movement to get Ky. to adopt this practice would be in order? m | ||
| tomyv |
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Posts: 1310 Location: Washington, PA | I'm on that team Mikie. | ||
| kevin |
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Posts: 1335 Location: Chicago, Beverly | On Webster Lake in Indiana they have(or used to have) a certified scale at the Lakeside restaurant. The idea was if someone caughta state record out of webster they could weigh it there and then release it if they wanted. | ||
| Trimmer |
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 Posts: 18 Location: Ashalnd,Ky | Hi All, I have been one of the people that has been trying to get this project off the ground.. Because of stocking changes that the state has done since 2001 we feel we must try to protect as many of the fish as we can in the 6 to 9 year class by checking your fish on a set of cert. scales you will know in short order if you have a state record on your hands.. just for the record.. If you do catch a state record in Kentucky you must have you weight witnessed by a state biogolist.. Lew and the other biogolist have agreed to have their telephone numbers with the scales.. that way you can weight your fish if under you can put it back in the water quickly..and if you do have a state record you can call right from the dock to get a biogolist down there to witness your catch.. I hope you will support this effort.. we will soon have up a dotation page that will list your donations and give you credit for your support thank you Chris Erwin KentuckyAngling.Com | ||
| Tony_Grant |
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Posts: 172 | I have many different thoughts about having scales on the lake, those thoughts have changed over the last couple of years. 1)MOST anglers DON'T have a livewell big enough to hold a great fish of this size. 2)How many undersized OVERLY STRESSED muskies will be brought to the dock to be weighted? Most lying in the bottom of a boat. Over my 16 plus years working out of Longbow Marina on Cave Run I have seen quite a few SMALL muskies being brought in my non muskie anglers thinking they have a giant. Remember how large you thought your first 40 incher was>>>>Several 25 lb muskies have been thought to be 50 pounds by anglers that are not to familair with our great sport fish. Remember MOST RECORD fish are caught by anglers fishing for another spieces. My belief is that a scale on the lake will harm too many muskies that are not of record demensions. | ||
| muskie_man |
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Posts: 1237 Location: South Portsmouth, KY | I can see where you are coming from Tony. It would be nice if the state measured length by girth like mike said instead of weight.Tony i will be sure to buy some ratlin shads up at the ohio show.Very nice bait! | ||
| firstsixfeet |
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Posts: 2361 | I agree with Tony on this. He has stated the problem exactly. The probability of catching a state record fish are slim. The probability of being able to handle it at least 3 separate times, landing, out of the livewell and then on and off the scale without doing injury to the fish, slim. The probability that anglers will even have livewell facility that can handle a 45 lb fish safely, slim. The possibility of releasing it back into the lake and it surviving after this chain of improbabilities is slim. I think it is an idea offered in the right spirit, though. If you were to obtain a state certified scale, and I have no knowledge what the state requires for this, I wish you would consider finding the nearest cooperative convenience store that is open till 11 pm, and placing it there. | ||
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| Hello down there fellow muskie men from KY--we do have a certified digital scale (Detecto 100 lb digital scale accurate to the 0.1 oz from All American Scales, Inc of Indianapolis #317-462-9392 or Canton, OH 330-488-1070) at Lakeview Restaraunt on Lake Webster. It has been there for two years and to best of my knowledge there have been NO LOST MUSKIES as a result of it being there. Several other fish species have been weighed on it as well. It is absolutely essential in my opinion to have such a scale on the water being overseen by fishermen to ensure the very best chances for our beloved fish. Those same fishermen will take their fish to the butcher, post office, or wherever (taxidermist) to weigh them. If the scale is on the water and there is a known/written procedure/protocol how to go about it then I personally feel more fish will be saved. It certainly worked for me last spring........Jeff @ [email protected] | |||
| firstsixfeet |
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Posts: 2361 | Muskymaster. Webster Lake is 500 acres. That is the size of some of the large COVES in Cave Run. I don't have any knowledge about your scale or the resulting survivability of fish weighed(which I seriously doubt), but the fact is that if this scale is placed on the water at Cave Run it would either go at Scotts or Oxbox and they kind of both sit at the far ends of the lake, many miles apart. I cannot imagine any circumstances that would make me livewell a large fish in preference to immediate release. I have read stories of people catching big fish and carrying them to shore to snap pictures, or to get witnessed, or to measure and weigh and have to say I think they are dolts. I don't mind people whacking the occasional fish for personal trophy or even if they think it may be a state record(hopefully largest they ever caught), but when people start carrying them to shore, or doing extended photo shoots out in the boat it makes me think they are fishing for recognition rather than love of the sport. Be that as it may(and perhaps that is just as valid a reason for fishing as is love of the sport itself?), I still think that putting an on the water scale in place is a bad idea, particularly if it encourages transport and weighing of non record size fish. | ||
| Trimmer |
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Posts: 18 Location: Ashalnd,Ky | I understand that they are some different point of view on this issue.. but the facts are.. if your so uninformed that you don't have a clue if you have a state record or not.. your not going to even know the scales are even there..and a angler that would release a 50 inch plus musky will more then likely be set up with a live well to hold one.. plus the fact we are trying to put the whole thing in one place.. the scale, the phone, and the phone number to state biologist, the fact that you won't have to drive all over the state to get the job done may save some of the fish weight.. I have been musky fishing since 1975 and I guided on Cave Run for four years Officer Gibson was my sponsor..I will return to guiding when I get my house built on Cave Run so I wouldn't have to conmute.. I do respect Toney's opinion but I just do see anyone changing anything they do because these scales are on the water.. people that are uninformed will stay uninformed..this won't effect their beheavor at all there is not going to be a flood of people to the scales.. but if you do happen to catch a "could be" record you wouldn't have to drive 30 miles out of Morehead and then find the biologest number and wait and watch your fish loose weight while you wait and wait on the process to get completed.. I see no down side to this.. this doesn't change anything for the guy that doesn't have the gear, or the live well,or knowledge to know better.. It just helps you! I hope you can see this is a positive thing..and if you! the musky fishermen! don't support it then it won't happen.. the price of the scales look like will be about $700 plus we need a custom tray or hanging net.. The pople in the know .. know that Cave Run has went from a 8000 fish stocking yearly to a 2,800 and now to 1,200 stocking..which we hope is temp. By the way they are no evidence that musky are reproducing naturally on Cave Run.. this is according to state biologist Lew Kornman At 8000 we had to many fish in the lake and our fish were thin not getting good weight gain.. in 1989 we went to 2,800 and thats the fish we are seeing now.. 9 year old fish some reaching over 40 lb..as the stocking has went down or fish quality has went up.. this is a mater of state records.. a 6 year old fish on Cave Run is avr.length is 38.6 inches and a 7 year old fish is avr. 42.6 inches.. It takes three year for a fish to make it to 30 inches on Cave Run.. these fish are stock in October and are 13 inches when released.. The point is in the next few years we think that we are going to see the state record broken two or three times..what has to happen for this to happen? The fish has to live longer than 9 years.. we know this does happen.. but its not happing a lot.. after a nine year marking study most Musky in Cave Run didn't make it to see ten years.. but as stocking is decreased we believe more of these fish will make it to ten years.. as they do.. we would like to see the process of certifing a fish be a easier deal than it is now..and maybe even seeing a few fish making it though the process with out being killed!! Its up to you all..If we don't raise the money for the scales then it won't happen.. but to think this will hurt something is a excuse not the truth.. Chris Erwin KentuckyAngling Edited by Trimmer 2/18/2004 1:42 PM | ||
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| Exactly muskiemaster, guys like you weighing 25 to 30 pound fish just for the heck of it. serious & knowledgeable musky nuts know the length/girth it takes for a record fish in you perspective steate. i'm sure i'll see a few big 42" being weighted this summer. pretty soon, lenght measurement won't be enough and guys will start transporting fish just to get a weight measurement. not even for going to record status, just to weigh it, for personal reasons. 30 pound fish are HUGE, especially for Indiana, so i'm not knocking that...but i think too many anglers will start weighint 38", 45" muskies. As Tony Grant says, mabye 5% of the musky fisherman have livewell big enough to transport a musky. Indiana has a certified scale on the the lake where there has NEVER EVER EVER been a fish 40 pounds taken...but only a 6 minute truck ride from the lake the last 3 state records came from...go figure? | |||
| sworrall |
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Posts: 32904 Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | If there is a certified scale on the water, why would anglers rush there to weigh a small muskie? The standard today is length and girth and release, which works for most muskie anglers I know. The idea a scale be available on the water in case a state record is caught isn't a bad idea, if that is the intent. Most muskie anglers could weigh a fish on the water already,but don't because it plain doesn't matter. If the scale is placed in case of a record catch it won't be used much. | ||
| MikeHulbert |
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Posts: 2427 Location: Ft. Wayne Indiana | I am also on the fence on this situation. I do not want to see Cert. scales on waters for reasons mentioned above. People will be weighing fish that dont' need to be weighted, or weigh them just to see what their wieght is. Also, in Indiana the cert. scale is in a restaurant. Do you really think that a fish that is caught, put in a live well, driven several miles and banged around, carried 50 yards inside a store, weighed, walked back out to the boat, back in the livewell, down the road again, banging around, then released back into the water is really going to servive. I don't plan on weighing a fish so I don't see the point of having these scales. I believe they will do more harm than good. | ||
| Trimmer |
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Posts: 18 Location: Ashalnd,Ky | I'm haveing a hard time understanding why anyone would think that by having a cert. scale on the lake that any more fish would be weighed now than they would if they wasn't a set on the lake.. they are scales on or near the lake now.. they are just not cert. If you judge your fish by length and grith why would you change..you wouldn't.. unless you have a fish that is close..then the only way is to have it weighed on a set of cert. scales.. a guy thats going to drag a fish around in the bottom of his boat is going to do it any way..and he's not checking it for a record he trying to get to the truck to go home.. what benefit is there in having to drive 30 miles.. hunt a telephone number and leave the water to check a fish.. cause harm!! really The only person that should be against this is the current record holder because we are going to break that record in the next year or two.. I hope you can see past the bull and see this as a way of helping the serious anglers on Care Run Chris Erwin KentuckyAngling.Com | ||
| firstsixfeet |
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Posts: 2361 | Chris, You are welcome to your viewpoint but to consider other people's views to be an excuse rather than fact is rather confrontational on your part, don't you agree? I mean, look at the what you are saying, you have no more facts to back up your opinion than other's have to back up their's. I don't know what credentials you supply by giving us your history of being a guide but let's face it, it has nothing to do with what will happen with the scale. I think a lot of anglers will not have a clue as to whether or not their fish is huge-but they will know that there is a certified scale at point A. Some of them will attempt to drag their fish there to 1. get it weighed and 2. have people see it, human nature. By the way, their are a LOT of people out there who would release a 50" fish and don't have a livewell large enough to hold one(might be because they plan on releasing them, huh?). As to people being "in the know", I think the opinions running contrary to yours here are all people I would consider to be "in the know" on this lake. I hate to dredge this out any further but could you quote a study or let me know the DNR results that showed the fish were thin when they were going in at 8,000 per year? That is real interesting because large populations of musky tend to predate themselves heavily, limiting the young reaching adulthood. And what study or history of fish populations make you think that MORE fish will reach an age greater than 9 years in the future when you are getting a population base that by your own description is much smaller? This should leave LESS fish capable of reaching the 9 year level not MORE. It would be real interesting if it happened particularly in the light of heavier and more knowledgable fishing pressure. I think the reason we have seen an upsurge lately is the result of a good year class or two, and the increased pressure that turns over all the stones to catch them in the times when they tend to be moving through the lake actively. My viewpoint on this is that it won't kill the lake. If people do it I will still fish up there and there will still be fish up there(though I think a few less due to the scale). Rather than bringing up non facts and becoming confrontational on the issue let's just present our opinions and let people decide. If you actually have ANY facts in support of your argument for a scale feel free to state them. I will happily clarify my position as to being based on knowledge of human nature and the difficulty for the musky of being hauled around a lake after being caught, and it is my OPINION. | ||
| Trimmer |
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Posts: 18 Location: Ashalnd,Ky | The facts I stated are from a letter from Lew Kornman the letter is on my website.. the statement about thin fish was his not mine..he is the biologist on Cave Run and he has been the the biologist in charge of the Musky project.. I am sorry if I seem to be confrontational.. sometime the written word doesn't come across the way you intended it to be.. but the facts I have stated are part of letters from Lew Kornman and they are as I have stated them.. I have fished Cave Run since 1973 I have had property in the Popin Rock area for 19 years and I guided the Lickin' river area and the Northfork area.. your right.. its up to you.. I won't post again about it on this website and I'm sorry to anyone that felt like I was being harsh.. I didn't mean to be.. thank you all for listing Chris Erwin aka Trimmer | ||
| firstsixfeet |
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Posts: 2361 | I went to this guys site and read this letter. Saw nothing that expected more big fish in the future printed in same letter. Once again, don't understand how the fisheries decrease stocking supports the need for a scale but I will leave that up to everyone's imagination! I also don't understand what his residency, or fishing does to support the need for a scale but will leave that up to everyone's imagination also. What I do understand is that this will eat up $700(?) and that money might better be spent on education at the boat landings, or given as dedicated donations to the DNR musky management effort rather than invested in a scale which may see valid usage in weighing a potential state record ? times a year, but may be the cause of death of many more muskies than those potential records, and indirectly may be responsible for the death of those also. | ||
| ManitouDan |
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Posts: 567 | Having to have a record fish witnessed by a state biologist sounds STUPID to me . Get real -- these guys gonna take call to be available ?? I can see it now, me getting lucky and catching the big one, but the biologist at home was surfing the web (muskiefirst maybe) and his # is busy for 2 hours. Ever try to reach a gov employee on a holiday ???? Ha ha -- I can't see how having the scales farther away from the lake does the fish some good. As muskie fishing has now reached far greater numbers of people I think the record catches will start being by muskie fisherman , not anglers of other species. I don't see the coorelation between scales being available on a lake and a bunch of rednecks dragging small fish in. Would you agree a non muskie angler is going to keep a 35-40 pounder with no cares about the state record or scales being available anyhow ? HOWEVER if a muskie angler nails a fish and it falls a pound or 2 short he might release it after he learns the weight. If you gotta drive it off the lake the fish has zero chance instead of some chance of survival--- Trigger from ashland Keep posting -- you just got here !!! ManitouDan (from down the river in So Portsmouth ky. ) | ||
| kevin |
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Posts: 1335 Location: Chicago, Beverly | I thought I was pretty clear about the scale at webster, the idea is to get a state record that ends up released. I thought Jed Pearson(dnr guy in charge of musky program in that part of Indiana) had something to do with it to. Webster is about 780 acres total including Backwaters. The restaurant is literally on the water, so no real distance from where you dock the boat, better yet catch the fish, I realise Cave run is much bigger. The problem at Webster prior to the scale is someone caught a State record, or fish very close to it, and the only place nearby refused to weigh it(Lances grocery store). So that was part of the reason for the one at Webster. I always carry a 50lbs Chatillon scale with me, if I was to catch something worth weighing at Lakeview, it would be weighed on that first. That way I would already have an idea. Sure, not every guy carries a scale with them. Unfortunately I have not had a reason to use the scale at Lakeside yet. Glad to know it is still there since the place changed hands once or twice since they got it. | ||
| TR 196 KY |
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 Posts: 6 Location: Morehead, Ky | 6feet, I live here on Cave Run and I think the scales are welcome. I do not know where you live (could you let us know). Trimmer, I enjoy your post also. I would rather weigh at Scotts Creek or Longbow instead of runnin all over the freakin country trying to find certified scales. My two cents. Edited by TR 196 KY 2/19/2004 5:41 PM | ||
| Trimmer |
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Posts: 18 Location: Ashalnd,Ky | I just wanted everyone that has wrote me in the last two days to know that I am thankful for your letters..I also want to you to know I said that I wasn't going to post anything else on the subject on this site I didn't say I wasn't ever going to post here again.. but I didn't come here to argue or to be questioned on my facts.. because the fact I have stated were all part of the public record.. for those of you that have pledge to help.. I will keep in touch as we move forward.. Good Fishing Trimmer KAC | ||
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| Definitely some anxiety/paranoia here--the scale on Webster is on the water (maybe 25 feet from it) and has been used VERY LITTLE. I used it for a 51.5 inch fat mama that weighed in at 36# 11.5 which is close to the IN record. To my knowledge, no other muskies have been weighed on it in the two years it has been there (according to the restaraunt owner). The main point is that it is there. No running around, little weight loss from a record fish, and a very decent chance that the fish could end up back in the lake to swim away like mine did. Unless folks in KY are whole lot different than us Hoosiers, I seriously doubt that it will affect our beloved muskie population one bit having it there on cave run. Obviously if it became a problem the scale could be removed. Good luck to all on the Cave. Hope to make it down sometime! | |||
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| Definitely some anxiety/paranoia here--the scale on Webster is on the water (maybe 25 feet from it) and has been used VERY LITTLE. I used it for a 51.5 inch fat mama that weighed in at 36# 11.5 which is close to the IN record. To my knowledge, no other muskies have been weighed on it in the two years it has been there (according to the restaraunt owner). The main point is that it is there. No running around, little weight loss from a record fish, and a very decent chance that the fish could end up back in the lake to swim away like mine did. Unless folks in KY are whole lot different than us Hoosiers, I seriously doubt that it will affect our beloved muskie population one bit having it there on cave run. Obviously if it became a problem the scale could be removed. Good luck to all on the Cave. Hope to make it down sometime! | |||
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