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Posts: 351
Location: Vilas County, WI | A few years ago it seemed like the Revo Toro Winch was all the rage since it made pulling big blades so easy. It had a 4.6:1 ratio which wasn't ideal for burning but made 13's significantly easier to retrieve.
As technology and design changes occur, it seems like the low ratio's are a thing of the past? It appears reels like a Toro S and other 5.3:1 reels have kind of taken the place of the low ratio reels. Has low ratios lost popularity because thier kind of a one dimensional reel?
I currently have a Premier 8'6" Heavy with a Toro Winch, however I just purchased a Toro S. I was having a dilemma about what to put the Toro S on because I'd like to have a 9' rod that can do both - big plastics and big bucktails. Based on some prior discussion on this forum it sounds like the Toro S and a 9' Legend would do that. I will throw bucktails up to 13 and plastic up to Mag Dawgs. I hope the Toro S can handle both.
Thoughts?
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Posts: 577
| 4.6:1 are not obsolete. Just personal preference. |
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Posts: 150
Location: Appleton, WI | The Beast has a version at 4.9:1 and that makes pulling big blades or big crank baits all day easy. Not to mention the go to standard in the musky world the Tranx 500 PG is a 4.6:1 ratio so no low gear ratios are here to stay. |
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Posts: 386
| The 13s will not be friendly to your wrists/arms with the S. 10s are about where the S tops out for me. |
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Posts: 115
| Love the regular Calcutta 400 for slow topwaters |
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Posts: 1638
Location: Minnesota | Love my 500 tranx pg I would get rid of my HG before my pg every day of the week |
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Posts: 1100
| You have to look at the IPT, just looking at the gear ratio makes no sense.
The PG tranx 500 4.6:1 have roughly the same IPT as the HS toro NACL 6.4:1 |
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Posts: 2333
Location: Chisholm, MN | Yeah you can't compare a pg to a winch. The winch is super slow and obsolete in my book. |
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Location: Contrarian Island | I use my winch for bucktails at night and slow toppies like wolly pogs. Awesome reel for that. |
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Posts: 1000
| IPT is the real discussion here, but I'm in general disagreement that these slower reels are obsolete. The rage right now is burning, but in a few years the fish will get used to that and you'll start to hear about slow rolling deep fish/night fish/cold fronts. I sold my PG for a Beast 4.9 because I wanted a reel that was easy to slow down with. Located a whole lot of fish that way that I returned for during peak periods. Worked very well. |
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Posts: 2333
Location: Chisholm, MN | Yeah I agree they work good for slow presentations but I would still rather use a faster reel so I have better pick up when I actually hook that fish. But to each their own! |
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Location: Contrarian Island | not sure line pick up w the winch is a negative as my hit to catch ratio with it is the same or better than all my fast reels....
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Posts: 167
Location: Tomahawk, WI | tolle141 - 5/5/2017 8:08 AM IPT is the real discussion here, but I'm in general disagreement that these slower reels are obsolete. The rage right now is burning, but in a few years the fish will get used to that and you'll start to hear about slow rolling deep fish/night fish/cold fronts. I sold my PG for a Beast 4.9 because I wanted a reel that was easy to slow down with. Located a whole lot of fish that way that I returned for during peak periods. Worked very well. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What he said!!!! |
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Posts: 532
| I will agree it's an IPT discussion, again.
I would find it amazing if a person could "Burn" a bait faster than 3mph average for more than a few casts. 1mph is roughly 18" per second. So at 54" per second (3mph) that is hardly "Burning" any bait in a muskies eyes, I also would say superhuman to do for a length of time. That speed is slow motion for a musky, I don't think the fish will be getting use that that speed anytime soon. |
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Posts: 422
Location: MN | ^ I don't think it's that far-fetched. A reel with 27 IPT would achieve that with just 2 turns of the handle per second. I'll have to time myself to see for sure, but that doesn't seem like cranking excessively fast. A high speed reel with 35 IPT at the end of the cast would need only 1.5 turns of the handle per second to achieve that.
FWIW, a general formula for speed is
IPT * (turns/second) /17.6 = bait speed in mph |
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Posts: 532
| Please understand I made mention this is more than a couple casts. For fish to get use to 3mph they would have to see it often. Also the resistance of the bait will play a factor.
Also think of the answer to these:
How fast can you bring in a top water? Does the reel you use change its tops seed?
How fast can you bring in a glider? Does a reel change that?
How fast can you bring in a jerk bait? tube? jig? Twictch or crank bait? Rubber bait?
How about a spinner??? Does the reel your using significantly change any speed? The vast majority of the time the bait is the limiting speed factor. So working a bait that can only handle 24" per second really doesn't care if the reel is 24ipt or 55ipt.
People will argue spinners, but really most are worked under 2mph reguardless of reel, it's a comfort reason, also some baits won't stay underwater at higher speeds.
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Posts: 268
| Howdy,
I find it fascinating how much the dogma of using the right gear ratio has created these universal facts that it's heresy to disagree with.
For example, take the bass world. If you want to use crankbaits you NEED to use a low 5:1 gear ratio or you'll blow out the bait. But, when you're throwing a small shad rap you NEED to use a spinning reel. TAKE A LOOK AT THE INCH PER TURN ON YOUR SPINNING REEL! You will likely see its between 32-36 IPT. If it was a casting reel, using that for a crankbait would be heresy.
So, use what you like. Fast reels work great so long as you are watching how the bait reacts to what your doing. The same is true for slower reels. If you're comfortable with how the reel feels your going have success.
Take care,
Ruddiger |
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Posts: 8788
| To me reel is "obsolete" when either
A. You can't find parts for it
B. It costs more to fix it than it's worth
C. You have so many others that you don't even use it for a backup
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Posts: 109
| Gear ratio is just one factor. Handle length, spool height/diameter. Spool width and even line diameter will impact the effective spool height at the end of a cast and therefore change the inches per turn. Individual angler preference is another item to consider. Some would rather reel faster with less resistance while others prefer to reel slower with more resistance. It is my opinion that there is not one ideal reel for everyone for each application, and lower geared reel will always be favored by some. I have an abu Garcia from the 1960's with a 3 to 1 ratio that I will use on occasion. |
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Posts: 1274
Location: E. Tenn | All this is making my brain hurt... I think I'll go fishing.. |
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Posts: 422
Location: MN | anzomcik - 5/5/2017 5:35 PM
Please understand I made mention this is more than a couple casts. For fish to get use to 3mph they would have to see it often. Also the resistance of the bait will play a factor.
Also think of the answer to these:
How fast can you bring in a top water? Does the reel you use change its tops seed?
How fast can you bring in a glider? Does a reel change that?
How fast can you bring in a jerk bait? tube? jig? Twictch or crank bait? Rubber bait?
How about a spinner??? Does the reel your using significantly change any speed? The vast majority of the time the bait is the limiting speed factor. So working a bait that can only handle 24" per second really doesn't care if the reel is 24ipt or 55ipt.
People will argue spinners, but really most are worked under 2mph reguardless of reel, it's a comfort reason, also some baits won't stay underwater at higher speeds.
Not going to argue about conditioning or what is a typical speed - my original comment was regarding bait speed over 3 mph on casts being realistic and sustainable. This applies mostly to inline spinners.
To answer your questions, in many of those cases the top speed is not limited by reel speed. On the other hand, do you choose equipment based on the lighter or heavier end of its duties? For me, pickup becomes a practical issue mainly with spinners and crankbaits. Spinners can be built heavier for speed and many cranks can handle 5+ mph. A slow reel limits the usable speed on these baits; other baits are fine either way. |
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Posts: 532
| I am not a good person to ask on chooseing different combos. I fish only one combo for casting. Tranx HG on a LT big Dawg. But I can follow what your saying.
I said this in another post, my friend and I had a casting competition I had my Tranx HG he had a curado d. casting the same Bait roughly the same distance we would reel, in a race, to see who can make it in first. I won with the tranx. Then we handed each other our combos and did it again. I won with the curado. While our race isn't official, it brings up that just because a reel has more IPT does not give it a high top speed with a bait on it. It is still human calories making it turn, the power a person puts out can only make a bait move so fast reguardless of the machine the hand is turning.
I also do not believe in real fishing situations anglers can sustainable hold 3mph |
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Posts: 983
| I dont think your pulling 13s all day on any reel except for the Tranx 500 or beast 4.9 and would still be a choir to do all day even with those reels....The Toro S is a great multi purpose reel. can pull double 10s without to much work but still has enough IPT to work a variety of other baits..Great reel for the money can be had for around $170 which has to put pressure on the Max toro being around $150 almost everywhere found for around $129 online but not much money seperating the two reels right now even though they $250 and $150 MSRP but find much btr discounts on the Toro S than the max |
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Posts: 750
Location: Minneapolis, MN | The S is going to be your all around reel, the winch is your more situational reel. At the end of the day it's not just about IPT, or gear ratio, it's about the combination of the two plus the human factor. I like the Winch for topwater creepers and props as it makes it helps me slow down, which is something I have a hard time doing... |
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