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Posts: 1060
Location: Palm Coast, FL | http://www.in-fisherman.com/magazine/articles/if0404_Bits/
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Posts: 341
| I wonder how much force I generate setting the hook when 10ft away from a muskie? Non-stretch line, thumb on spool, my legs, back and arms working together? More then 40lbs of thrust I guarantee you. I bet I generate a hundred pounds of pin pointed force or enough to snap swivels and such. What does that do to its back?
Edited by muskycore 12/11/2007 7:51 PM
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Posts: 502
Location: Lincoln UK | nowhere near as much as you may think. Get a friend to hold the lure in his hand whilst you attempt to set it. In all honesty there isn't any reason to take the hooks off before trying it.
Edited by chico 12/11/2007 9:19 PM
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| muskycore, dont forget your rod bends, taking out most the power you are putting into that hook set.
like the other gentle man said, have someone hold a lure in thier hand, then you set the hook..not as much power being transferred as you'd think (all the more reason to keep those hooks sharp). i highly doubt 100 pound of force are being transferred to that hook set. you probably can and do assert 100 pounds of force, but it's lost thru the bend of the rod, the angle of the line (where the lure and fish is at)
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Posts: 457
| Not to mention the way the forces work on pulling the fish through the water, versus pulling against an immovable object. If there is a sum total of 40 pounds transferred to the hooks, I would be shocked. |
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| I have shown probably 50 people just how weak your actual hook set is.
I have done it at seminars and people are just amazed.
Try it and you'll find out just how week your hook set really is, then add the factor of being under water and being more resistance on the line, lure, fish...
You can easily hold a lure in your hand and have somebody set the hook and nothing happens, your hand will maybe move about 3 inches. |
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Posts: 1938
Location: Black Creek, WI | Holding a lure in your DRY hand is completely different than holding a lure between slime covered, wet BONE/Teeth. Cooeficient of friction and surface contact area are in completely different universes.... and I challenge the significance of that seminar demonstration.
If I can straighten a 5/0 Eagle Claw hook on a hookset.... I'm convinced there is plenty of power getting down there.
In regard to the above mentioned article... I haven't read it yet.... so I can't respond to that. |
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Posts: 1938
Location: Black Creek, WI | Hmm... interesting article. Well written. Get's the point across without being overly aggressive or extreme in its viewpoint and delivery. It should get some results, in my opinion.
It wasn't a "flame the vertical hold" article as I had expected from the title of this thread... but rather a "use your common sense" article for proper fish handling. Thanks for sharing! |
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Posts: 3508
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | I would tend to agree with Jason on this...having read the article we have a few factors that come into play both with setting a hook and holding the fish.
Article/holding the fish: In the water, heavier items can be moved with more ease since the weight of the object is supported more by the water than by air. for example...take a 30 pound rock and lift it underwater....you can lift it easier than if it were on land...the water supports the weight. With a 30 pound fish, the same thing physically happens. Now..take that fish out of water, and all of it's weight (now no longer supported to some extent by water) is fully placed on the fish's skeletal system, vertical hold or not. In the vertical hold, the entire weight of the fish is being supported by one main connection: Brain stem/skull to spine. That's a bunch of weight, BUT...in playing devil's advocate for a very short moment..., the spine is attatched differently to the skull of a fish than it is in our bodies...there is some torque, but not as much as what we would feel if someone tried to lift us by the jaw... I would tend to feel that there is a fair amount of torque, but as long as the fish is NOT thrashing, it would not be much...THIS IN NO WAY SHOULD BE CONSTRUED AS AN ARGUMENT TO HOLD A FISH VERTICALLY. I do my best to support the fish horizontally and will continue to do so and would encourage EVERY angler to do the same.
Hook-sets: Lots of physics going on here... We have the main force of your hookset against the force of the fish pulling. Due to the characteristics of water, having resistance (coefficent of friction comes into play here), but in liquid form allows objects to be forced through the fluid...Then, we have the angular force of the line to the fish which splits horizontally and vertically (a force upward and a force horizontally toward the rod), then the force of the fish pulling against the applied forces of the line (again vertically and horizontally in most cases). All of this affects the amount of force applied directly to the mouth of the fish, and the hook being embedded in the mouth...
If the fish pulls exactly in the opposite direction of the forces from the rod and all that force is placed directly on the bend in the hook, a hook can easilly straighten out. On the hook itself, you are dealing with a bended piece of steel, which through bending has also been fatigued to a small extent, thus weakening the hook to a small extent at the main bend. Pulling that bend outward does not take a huge amount of force but it is not the easiest either. put gloves on and try to bend the hook outward...you can do it and it would not take a huge amount of force... The larger the hook, though, the harder this becomes... There is enough force to do it, but how much force depends on these characteristics and then some...we have not even considered line stretch, rod bend, quickness of the hookset, etc...
So...I think the demonstration of holding the lure and setting a hook would have more to do with line stretch than anything... so there is some significance to it....but that needs to be stated.
I believe there is enough power in the hookset down there too...I have straightened big hooks as well...having that extra "give" in the rod does help cushion the forces...if too "bendy" the force is absorbed more by the rod...
Steve
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I would disagree that bending hooks happens on many hook-sets, especially with todays longer, softer rods.
I can hook a log and barely be able to bend hooks trying to free a lure.
A muskies mouth is much like a vice-grip, pliers, vice whatever.
Most hooks that get bent are from the muskies mouth physically bending them from opening, closing, twisting etc.
Try having someone hold onto a lure's hook with a pliers, while you set the hook and see how many times you can bend that hook with an initial hook-set.
John
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Posts: 3508
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | I don't believe anyone said it happens on "many" hooksets...
When you catch a log in most cases, your hook point is being forced into the log...not outward on the bend...two totally different directional forces taking place. That is why your hook does not bend much if at all...
That opening, closing, twisting, bending has to have some resistance force on it in order for the hook to bend...that force is coming from what you exert on the fish...
your pliars idea is a good one...but the forces must be in the correct direction in order for the bend to take place... You cannot hold the hook at the bottom of the bend...it must be on the outside portion (by the barb), and the hook must be pullde directly away from that point...It won't bend unless that force is correct.
Steve |
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | jlong - 12/12/2007 9:08 AM
Holding a lure in your DRY hand is completely different than holding a lure between slime covered, wet BONE/Teeth. Cooeficient of friction and surface contact area are in completely different universes.... and I challenge the significance of that seminar demonstration.
It is so rare that I don't agree with you at least on some level but this is one of those cases. The lure slipping makes little difference if the point of this demonstration is to show the amount of force applied to the lure on hookset. If the demonstration was about hook penetration then I would agree, but it isn't. |
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Posts: 341
| Bent hooks are one thing but cracked snaps, rods tell me the fish's head is on the receiving end of a powerful blow. Any slack at the end of line multiples the force before hooks actually engage and pliers have no slip to start the momentum.
The only time I saw damage to a muskie came from an H-hold. But it could have happened either way when an Esox started to thrash against a stronger grip. The guy ripped part of its jaw off, I would have dropped to the floor with the ski but he tried to fight threw it. S-Happens
Keep them in the water the whole time if you’re that worried I guess.
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Posts: 3508
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | muskycore - 12/12/2007 10:47 AM
Bent hooks are one thing but cracked snaps, rods tell me the fish's head is on the receiving end of a powerful blow. Any slack at the end of line multiples the force before hooks actually engage and pliers have no slip to start the momentum.
I don't disagree with you on the force..there has to be a significant amount, but could the cracked rods and snaps be due to defect or fatigue?
Thanks
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Posts: 8839
| I'd venture to say that the amount of force that travels directly to the fish during a hookset is far less than what we'd like to believe it is. While it's easier to lift objects in the water, moving them at a high rate of speed is not, as the water itself offers a lot more resistance. Add in the flex of your rod, the amount of line you have out, the play in your snaps/split rings, etc., and I doubt the actual force exerted on the fish is anywhere near the force of holding it up out of the water by its jaw.
Edited by esoxaddict 12/12/2007 11:19 AM
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Location: Grand Rapids, MI | I believe In-Fish had an article on hooksets and rod power many years ago and it surprised them as much as readers. I believe they measured 15 lbs of force generated on a hookset with a muskie rod. Though I couldn't find the article or reference of it on the net I was able to find this releated info/article. With measured hooksets, interesting to note that the sledghammer hookset only generates 1/2 the force of a reel-set. When matched to a Lamiglas XC 807 Big Bait Special rod and spooled with Maxima 25-pound mono, the Calcutta 400 becomes part of a balanced rig. Moreover, it can deliver a much more forceful hookset when the reel-set is employed.
For example, with a 4.7:1 gear ratio, the Calcutta 400 takes up approximately 20 1/4 of inches line with each revolution. At a distance of 80 feet, this delivers 11 to 13 pounds-per-square-inch (psi) of force on a combination rod/reel-set (with five full revolutions). A normal hookset (sweeping the rod only) creates between 5 and 5 1/2 psi. It doesn't take a math major to see that a reel-set is a better deal.
http://www.bassfan.com/bigbass_article.asp?ID=8
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Posts: 3508
Location: Elk River, Minnesota | So if I read this correctly, doing both....reeling and sweeping the rod....at the same time is the best overall style of hookset for the maximum amount of force applied to the fish during the process itself...
Sounds like a good argument to make sure hooks are razor sharp... any resistance is a bad thing when it comes to the hook point itself.
Steve |
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Posts: 272
| I guess I'm just not understanding the term "reel set." Can someone 'splain?
I wouldn't ever say routinely, but often enough that I remember several instances....I've had 2-4 # pike, bass and small muskies come flying, literally feet, back at me on the hookset.
I also had a 33-35" muskie fly AT me at waist height, about 9 feet through the air on a hookset, but that was one of those "youch!!!" things and I think that fish just freaked when it felt hooks and went airborn. Coolest thing I ever saw. But different than what I'm getting at with hookset power. Point being...there's a difference between yanking a fish out of the water on hookset, and a "youch!!!" I'm just saying that I'm aware of the difference, and that fish can fly for a few different reasons.
So, I'm curious how much force it takes to launch a pike out of the water on a hookset.
Those of you out in the garage somewhere practicing this stunt.....just take the hooks off, please. |
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Posts: 8839
| Muskie addict, while there is some more complicated math involved than I know how to do, there are many things to consider here -- how deep is the fish? How far is the fish from the boat? Is the fish swimming towards you or away from you? Setting the hook hard on a 4# pike, close to the boat, up near the surface, fish swimming towards you? Yep, you better duck!
Setting the hook on a 30# muskie down 20' near the end of a cast is a whole different thing...
As for your question on reel-set, it's basically just that -- You reel and set the hook at the same time.
Edited by esoxaddict 12/12/2007 2:39 PM
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Posts: 341
| Not to beat a dead horse on this, but I geeked out and tied up a rod to my 4 year old daughters pink princess bike with training wheels at seat level 30yds away and gave it hell. I couldn't tip the bike over, more less move it. Stump the Muskie First twitching bacteria geeks win again, no offense
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Posts: 8839
| LOL, did 'ya girth it? |
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Posts: 97
| I would like everyone to take a look at how he's holding the fish in the picture. His support hand is directly below the wound. I believe holding the fish that far up on the body is worse for the fish. Is this mark from another fish early in its life? We seem to jump on every bandwagon that comes along. All of us vertically hold fish coming out of the net. Their mandible is larger in proportion that most fish species--
Articles have been written about this subject without any proof. I know an individual who vertically holds fish and has recaptured several fish over 7 times. These fish have tags in them and are vertically held. I just hate people being ripped apart on the internet for something that has no scientific data or proof. Some scientists state that about 10% of are fish captured have delayed mortality----Has anyone stopped fishing for them.
I am glad we are discussing vertical hods instead of releasing fish. I also understand everyone is trying to help this resource and make it better for the future.
I have seen plenty of data that contraindicates some opinions on vertical holds. Once again, I appreciate everyones passion for this subject on vertical holds.
Todd |
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