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Posts: 355
Location: Long Prairie, Minnesota | In reading through the post of Mr Ramsell's interview with the Meat Eater cast, CincySkeez brought up a good point. Why is it that MN and WI have the fish that don't grow as large as fish in Lac Seul, or St Claire and lakes that seem to grow these monsters. I believe that Mr Ramsell even mentioned himself in the podcast that the next true world record would come out of Lac Seul. I remember when I first got into musky fishing in the mid 80's that it seemed the Leech Lake strain of musky's was THE fish to be stocking in lakes. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe most of WI at the time was stocking the Shoepac strain, which didn't have the size characteristics of the Leech Lake strain. What strain of fish run in Lac Suel, or Eagle or St Claire? In its hay day, I surely thought the Big Pond would be the place a new WR came out of, but its decline came fast.
Could it be pressure on the water, even with Catch and Release, the fish still endure some stress during the process. Is it number of fish per acre, fighting each other for food, or just plain lack of food? Does the DNR of states need to implement the Lac Seul immediate release of fish? Whats the secret up there?
I'm sure no one actually has the answers to all the questions that need to be answered in order to grow fish in MN & WI to have a shot at a WR fish sometime, but just some food for thought. |
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Posts: 2006
| I think you mean St. Lawrence not St. Clair ...by weight I bet MN and WI (Green Bay) has produced heavier fish than St. Clair every year for the past 10+ years. |
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Posts: 164
Location: Cedarburg, WI. | I think the truth is somewhere in the middle. I DO believe Lac Suel or any of the "known" big fish waters have the best chance at producing a world record.
However i also believe unicorns are unicorns. The biggest fish i have ever seen followed in northern Wisconsin. Was it a world record? Doubtful. Was it mid 50's or better and thick as hell. 100%
What i am getting at is this. By what you read/hear that fish had no business being in this lake. (under 1000acres) Yet there is was. A Unicorn! |
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Posts: 184
| Food source. Fish aren't going to get giant eating bullheads and perch, I'm sure it happens but it's a rarity. Big oily fish like cisco, herring, whitefish, trout/salmon. Just my 2 cents.
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Posts: 630
Location: Duluth | Quite frankly most people get the why, wrong on what makes a strain grow larger etc.
Leech strain is really Mississippi River strain, Wisconsin river watershed has/had before dams sympatric fish, Menominee river watershed all Sympatric fish. The creation of reservoirs mixed genetics between sympatric and allopatric fish, then the stocking programs further muddled the genetics. So you have to have a genetics that allow for growth (Sympatric fish) then you need to have abundant forage, and importantly cool water and clean water.
Minnesota mostly has genetics, aside from Shoepack (allopatric) strain muddling things for a bit. More importantly MN lacks the forage and water quality to grow world records. Throw in the glory boy culture and regular pressure and the fish don't really stand a chance even if the genetics are there.
States like Michigan and New York have enormous amounts of high quality water, forage, that receives little pressure and has the unadulterated genetics.
IAJustin, I'll concede that the whole state of MN and WI have produced a heavier fish than St. Clair for the last decade. The same is simply not true of Michigan. There is only one body of water in my opinion that could produce a fish like we see out of some the water connected to GL in other states.......but we (in MN) will never have a chance to target those fish, which is fine. The reason MN gets so much big fish press is pretty simple, you have a ton of people chasing them and an entire industry around it. |
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Location: Athens, Ohio | Three things I learned from this site when I was starting out: keep your hooks sharp, your line tight, and there are no big fish in Wisconsin. m |
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Posts: 8772
| I believe it's a combination of water chemistry, pressure, genetics, habitat, and available forage. There's no magic fish that's going to get to 40# where the habitat will not allow, unless you're talking about initial stockings where there are currently no muskies present. I've seen some dandies on lakes that really should not produce fish of that caliber, but when you look further into it there's always something unusual about the lake. Maybe it's got a crappy landing, no parking but for a few rigs, maybe it's far enough off the beaten path where people don't bother with it, maybe it's got a tremendous population of suckers/redhorse, maybe it's part of a river system or a chain where a few good ones find their way in there, or maybe there's only a few muskies in there to begin with. I know of one such lake where there is no record of any stocking, muskies are not listed as being present, it's shallow, and doesn't seem to have any redeeming qualities. My guess is someone who lives on the lake snuck a few in there many moons ago and they managed to reproduce. Or for all I know, the one I raised might be the only one in the whole lake. Unicorn? You bet!
Edited by esoxaddict 8/16/2024 4:43 PM
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Posts: 54
| It’s big water (fish bowl effect) and forage.
I wouldn’t get too tied up in the stocking thing. The record probably isn’t going to come from a stocked water body. |
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Posts: 1325
| My dad was a Wisconsin native and he kept a Wisconsin fish over 30 pounds back in the 50's, and two other times he was hooked up with fish that would go 40 pounds. (one of them was caught and kept later in the fall by other fishermen 43 pounds)
and a third that big that missed his bait at boat side. My dad and my grandpa saw all kinds of very large fish back in the 1940's
and 50's. that were giant. There were not many Muskies back then and if they got caught and they were 30" they got wacked.
However if they got big most people and there tackle couldn't handle them and they got away. They would see fish that were not record class but just way bigger then 40 pounds. His 1950 fish took two hours to land (the snap gaff they had just bounced off the fish it was too wide across the back) they saw a man on shore a half mile a way from where they hooked it and asked if he had a gun to shoot it, he went and grabbed a gaff and wadded out a beached it for them.
If I could do a Bill Gardner I would head to St. Lawrance/Ottawa river but it would be fun to see what I could catch in Wisconsin or Minnesota. Or Ontario?? Got my lotto in for tonight. |
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Posts: 1290
Location: Hayward, Wisconsin | Manta 18 (Bret): Appears I need to correct some of your post. I DID NOT say on the podcast that the "next true world record would come out of Lac Suel". In fact I believe that I said that while it "might" have the potential, to my knowledge there has never been a 60-pounder from there (note: a 58 1/2 pounder would best the current Modern Day Muskellunge record-not the other BOGUS world records). In fact, regardless of size it would be technically impossible for a WR from Lac Suel as current rules there require "Immediate catch and release".
As for the possibility of fish from WI & MN growing fish as large as those in Lac Suel is UNPROVEN. According to Dr. John Casselman there are several factors that contribute to WR size: Lake size; large year classes and enough space to be left alone long enough to grow to trophy size (read minimal fishing pressure). And of course genetics does also come into play.
In the late 80's Minnesota switched to Leech Lake (Mississippi River) strain muskies in their hatchery program and created some of the greatest muskie fisheries on the planet at the time. Immense fishing pressure and the discontinuing or reducing stocking has taken an immense toll on those fisheries that produced many muskies over 50 pounds, including a new state record.
Wisconsin was NOT stocking Shoepac fish during those years.
The original strain of fish in Lac Suel were the spotted Sympatric strain. In I believe 1939 or around there, There were some stocking in Lac Suel, but I'm unaware of where they got them...perhaps from their "sanctuary lake" Masquinongy, which at the time was an allopatric strain of muskies. Whatever, there has likely been some strain hybridization there. Eagle Lake has always had a sympatric strain of muskies. St. Clair (or St. Lawrence River) both have always had Great Lakes Sympatric strain muskies. |
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Posts: 355
Location: Long Prairie, Minnesota | Larry Ramsell - 8/19/2024 1:02 PM
Manta 18 (Bret): Appears I need to correct some of your post. I DID NOT say on the podcast that the "next true world record would come out of Lac Suel". In fact I believe that I said that while it "might" have the potential, to my knowledge there has never been a 60-pounder from there (note: a 58 1/2 pounder would best the current Modern Day Muskellunge record-not the other BOGUS world records). In fact, regardless of size it would be technically impossible for a WR from Lac Suel as current rules there require "Immediate catch and release".
As for the possibility of fish from WI & MN growing fish as large as those in Lac Suel is UNPROVEN. According to Dr. John Casselman there are several factors that contribute to WR size: Lake size; large year classes and enough space to be left alone long enough to grow to trophy size (read minimal fishing pressure). And of course genetics does also come into play.
In the late 80's Minnesota switched to Leech Lake (Mississippi River) strain muskies in their hatchery program and created some of the greatest muskie fisheries on the planet at the time. Immense fishing pressure and the discontinuing or reducing stocking has taken an immense toll on those fisheries that produced many muskies over 50 pounds, including a new state record.
Wisconsin was NOT stocking Shoepac fish during those years.
The original strain of fish in Lac Suel were the spotted Sympatric strain. In I believe 1939 or around there, There were some stocking in Lac Suel, but I'm unaware of where they got them...perhaps from their "sanctuary lake" Masquinongy, which at the time was an allopatric strain of muskies. Whatever, there has likely been some strain hybridization there. Eagle Lake has always had a sympatric strain of muskies. St. Clair (or St. Lawrence River) both have always had Great Lakes Sympatric strain muskies.
Mr Ramsell.....thank you for correcting me as I misspoke. I was not trying to put words in to your mouth by any means. You are far and away more educated on this subject than my ole small town butt. I was trying to convey (as I have listened to the Meat Eater podcast more than once) was you believed Lac Suel had the potential for WR (forgot about the immediate release), so again my apologies for "misspeaking" |
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Posts: 144
| BillM - 8/16/2024 12:09 PM
Food source. Fish aren't going to get giant eating bullheads and perch, I'm sure it happens but it's a rarity. Big oily fish like cisco, herring, whitefish, trout/salmon. Just my 2 cents.
I agree. Certainly muskies can get big eating perch or suckers or other fish, but if they have access to those fatty high protein meals like cisco or tulibee, that's when they can really pack on weight. One 12 inch lake tulibee provides as many calories as a double cheeseburger. Its energy expended versus energy gained. |
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Posts: 184
| gimruis - 8/21/2024 3:46 PM
BillM - 8/16/2024 12:09 PM
Food source. Fish aren't going to get giant eating bullheads and perch, I'm sure it happens but it's a rarity. Big oily fish like cisco, herring, whitefish, trout/salmon. Just my 2 cents.
I agree. Certainly muskies can get big eating perch or suckers or other fish, but if they have access to those fatty high protein meals like cisco or tulibee, that's when they can really pack on weight. One 12 inch lake tulibee provides as many calories as a double cheeseburger. Its energy expended versus energy gained.
This is why I think Gbay has the next WR out there somewhere swimming, someone just needs to intercept it!! Fingers crossed it's me LOL!! |
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Posts: 1325
| You can catch a 45 pounder in Wisconsin if you fish the right lakes and in the right spots and it may take you a lifetime and it's going to be the biggest fish in the lake. If you go to Green Bay, Georgian Bay, or Ottawa/St. Lawrence or a few others you have a chance for a 60 pounder. A resort owner may have you believe in a world record or even a 100 pounder while he's selling a beer at the bar. |
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Posts: 87
| I believe it normally took a 45 lb or similar fish to win the Vilas County Muskie Marathon in the decades when that was run. I remember being in Boulder Junction as a kid back in 1977 I believe. At that time the fish that won the Marathon the year prior was a 46 lber out of Boulder Lake. The Northwoods muskie aura certainly caught many a young boy back in the day. |
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Posts: 630
Location: Duluth | The next WR would come from a body of water that also has migratory bait that starts to come into estuaries during late fall/early december. Problem is weather and season closures prevent us from legally targeting these fish. |
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Posts: 32876
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | Three over 50 at the Eagle River National Championship Musky Open this year. |
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Posts: 87
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1st Place Vilas County Musky Marathon
June 27, 1993
Stats: 56" – 44#, 8 oz. – 27-1/2" Girth
1st Place Vilas County Musky Marathon
Largest Musky Taken in North America 1993
A quick search found this. Point is, talk is about the next WR which is 58+ lbs, but let's not forget a true 45 lber is a huge muskie. I've mentioned this before but back in the '90s I saw a 45 lber that was laying on the dock at the lodge on Eagle Lake, ON. It was the new camp record. So even in the land of the giants 45 lbs is huge. The fish above was caught in June. Could it have weighed 50 lbs in late October?
I do not think it is out of the realm of possibility that a fish greater than 58 lbs comes out of an inland WI lake but I do think it is highly unlikely. Historically they do seem to top out in the low 50 lb range.
Edited by R/T 8/22/2024 3:44 PM
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| Tom Gelb caught his 50 pound plus musky in November in WI. Last day of the season if I remember right. There is a replica of that fish at Northern Edge Marine where I have my Suzukis serviced. Owner told me Gelb said he got a lot of grief for killing that fish, even though he had released something like a thousand that he and others in his boat had caught. |
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Posts: 1246
Location: E. Tenn | North of 8 - 8/22/2024 5:51 PM
Tom Gelb caught his 50 pound plus musky in November in WI. Last day of the season if I remember right. There is a replica of that fish at Northern Edge Marine where I have my Suzukis serviced. Owner told me Gelb said he got a lot of grief for killing that fish, even though he had released something like a thousand that he and others in his boat had caught.
He addressed that at great length in his book. |
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