Posted 5/22/2007 6:04 PM (#257371) Subject: River Muskie Habitat
Posts: 83
I've posted a video concerning River Muskie Habitat on You Tube. The goal is to create support and awareness for a proposed project.
If you can spare about eight minutes, I think you will enjoy it. It features a lot of unique underwater footage.
Your questions, comments and thoughts are welcome!
Thank you, and I look forward to hearing from you!
Jim Kinner
Posted 5/25/2007 4:42 PM (#258013 - in reply to #257371) Subject: Re: River Muskie Habitat
Posts: 83
Thanks, I opted for the tighter shots mostly because of the small You Tube screen size , and to keep the file size smaller (medium quality) so more people could watch. Terrain overviews are tough. The best visibility is only about 25 feet, and thats kind of rare. It's why they show us a lot of computer animations and composites when we watch shipwreck shows. Thanks for watching! Jim
boatrod
Posted 5/25/2007 8:04 PM (#258028 - in reply to #257371) Subject: RE: River Muskie Habitat
Great job! And thanks for sharing it with us all......
jim kinner
Posted 6/6/2007 5:00 PM (#259734 - in reply to #258028) Subject: RE: River Muskie Habitat
Thank you all for your support. I would be happy to try to answer any questions you might have on river fish. Any river rats out there?
Posted 6/6/2007 5:03 PM (#259735 - in reply to #257371) Subject: RE: River Muskie Habitat
Location: Green Bay, WI
I bought both of Jim's videos last week, and can say without hesitation that if you liked the video above, you will love the DVDs. Great stuff, without a doubt. It's worth the price just to see the little tussle with the bass!
Posted 6/6/2007 5:18 PM (#259738 - in reply to #257371) Subject: Re: River Muskie Habitat
Posts: 2361
Surely these fish are not expending this amount of energy at all times? An awful lot of swimming going on. Are they actually lying closer to the bottom before you contact them?
Posted 6/6/2007 8:07 PM (#259753 - in reply to #257371) Subject: Re: River Muskie Habitat
Posts: 201
Location: Stevens Point
This is a good movie, very educational. I have a couple of presentation tips. If you are serious about getting funding don't call out those who provide it by saying -money just dissappears around here. You need to consider your audience you don't want to offend those providing the funds. I would also attempt to b less monotone while speaking, I have the same problem when I present at school, but it is an important aspect to keeping your audience interested.
Good luck with this project.
Jim Kinner
Posted 6/6/2007 10:29 PM (#259774 - in reply to #259753) Subject: Re: River Muskie Habitat
TB - we thought about it and then thought better of it. As you can see we have them come at us as it is. There is a lot more footage of agressive behavior than we've released. If you hooked a four footer down there, you would have a big problem. I think we would be attacked.
First six- They rest a lot. They use the structure. They always fin a bit though. Its really nothing for them, I think, like strolling for us. A muskie has deceptive speed and can move so quickly they are out of view in an instant. They really seem to like the current. I suppose if they didn't, they would probably just swim out into the lake.
Brian - You are correct of course. Not the best tone.The money has been allocated. But will it happen? It's been difficult to stay positive here. Tough to lose the monotone drone on this one too, I guess. I am a lot more fun at presentations, but even that's deadpan humor. I can get 'em going, but I could use a public speaking course.
The County and City pols have been stripped of their authority to spend money. That function has been given to control boards. These boards are made up of influential buisnessmen. Panels of non elected activists with questionable motives sit on commissions with cheerfull sounding names and control all aspects of zoning and development. Hard to put on the smiley face when you come to the realization that it borders on fascism.
But this is a FISHING F RUM and the MUSKIE is king of his realm! IT'S ALL GOOD! Its why I hang around with fish instead of people that are politically motivated
Posted 6/6/2007 11:55 PM (#259779 - in reply to #259774) Subject: Re: River Muskie Habitat
Posts: 2024
Jim Kinner - 6/6/2007 10:29 PM
But this is a FISHING F RUM and the MUSKIE is king of his realm! IT'S ALL GOOD! Its why I hang around with fish instead of people that are politically motivated
AMEN, Brother!!
I also enjoyed your film, albeit in bits and pieces do to a crappy 'net connection. I've been following some of your vids on YouTube and they are quite impressive indeed. Makes me want to visit the Niagara River and dive it someday!!!
As far as FSF asking about energy consumption of muskies in this river, the type of behavior and fin movement, etc. is typical of riverine fish. Remember, the muskie evolved and adapted from river systems. They are built for speed and to maximize muscle use. Most riverine fish have a high concentration of slow-twitch muscles. These muscles have higher units of mitochondria (organelles within cells that make energy) and myglobin (oxygen binding unit within cells). In plain English, they are super efficient at creating lots of energy from the available oxygen in their surroundings enabling them to sustain muscle movement for long periods of time without tiring. These types of muscles are the same ones that hold our posture or that marathon runners use to sustain muscle contractions over long periods of time.
That was maybe a bit more information than you needed, but that's the gist. Take it for what it is.
jim Kinner
Posted 6/7/2007 4:08 PM (#259898 - in reply to #257371) Subject: RE: River Muskie Habitat
Thanks 50,
You have me thinking. I always enjoy learning more about the world below and seeing if my observations can be explained or should be discounted.
I wish I had the bio background, as you obviously do. Now, it appears to me that this fish has a few very different swimming modes. The " idle" speed or "holding fin" where the fish slowly fans its tail.
A low speed "meander" where the Fish bends just behind the anal fins, and uses its peck and anal fins to manuver. This will produce a slight side to side head action. The "tail wags the dog" effect.
The high speed mode seems to feature a completely streamlined body with fins flat against the body and arrow straightness. Propultion seems to feature a clockwise tail twist as opposed to a side to side motion, maybe 20 degrees or so. Am I seeing this correctly?
If so, can we make the leap that at least some different muscle groups are used in all of these different activities and probably use vastly different energy levels?
I would like to close this one with an apology. Esox 50 and I are sorry for boring the rest of you to tears.
Posted 6/7/2007 4:40 PM (#259903 - in reply to #257371) Subject: RE: River Muskie Habitat
Location: Green Bay, WI
I would bet there is some "learned" behavior in terms of muscle development in these riverine fish as well. Basically, this is muscle hypertrophy, just like in those of us who (used to) work-out. We all have the same myoglobin in our musculature, for the most part, but some of us use it and develop the muscle much more than others. I bet it's no different in these riverine fish, in comparison to their lacustrine cousins.
To test this theory, it would be neat to take a few musky from a small lake somewhere (ie; from a "no current" environment) and place them in an environment of fast current. Certainly they would instinctively know how to react, given their genetics and a few million years of evolution. But how *efficient* would they be at it? Would they thrive immediately, or take some time to become acclimated to their new environment? And once acclimated, would it take some time for their musculature to hypertrophy to a state more conducive to energy conservation?
Serial weight measurements could be used to measure their overall success rate--and (as long as we are designing a theoretically "idealized" study) we could monitor their feeding success with x-rays of the stomach. Obviously not a practical experiment, but an intriguing study nonetheless.
Posted 6/7/2007 9:40 PM (#259945 - in reply to #259903) Subject: RE: River Muskie Habitat
Posts: 2024
tcbetka - 6/7/2007 4:40 PM
I would bet there is some "learned" behavior in terms of muscle development in these riverine fish as well. Basically, this is muscle hypertrophy, just like in those of us who (used to) work-out. We all have the same myoglobin in our musculature, for the most part, but some of us use it and develop the muscle much more than others. I bet it's no different in these riverine fish, in comparison to their lacustrine cousins.
To test this theory, it would be neat to take a few musky from a small lake somewhere (ie; from a "no current" environment) and place them in an environment of fast current. Certainly they would instinctively know how to react, given their genetics and a few million years of evolution. But how *efficient* would they be at it? Would they thrive immediately, or take some time to become acclimated to their new environment? And once acclimated, would it take some time for their musculature to hypertrophy to a state more conducive to energy conservation?
Serial weight measurements could be used to measure their overall success rate--and (as long as we are designing a theoretically "idealized" study) we could monitor their feeding success with x-rays of the stomach. Obviously not a practical experiment, but an intriguing study nonetheless.
TB
I like the way you think! I've been hoping to see a study published comparing physiological attributes of riverine smallmouth and lake-dwelling smallies, the same concept could be applied to riverine muskies and lacustrine muskies.
It would actually be a relatively simple study to perform. Use naturally occuring riverine muskies and naturally occurring lacustrine muskies as controls, then subject riverine muskies to lacustrine conditions and vice versa. One would need a respirometer/swim tube (basically a treadmill for fish) and an array of sensors to determine cardiac output, stroke volume, and heart rate. Muscles samples could be analyzed to determine amount of lactic acid buildup and possibly blood could be drawn to determine glucose cortisol (stress hormone indicator) levels. To determine feeding success, again it would be simple, you'd simply need a continuous flow filtration system within a large tank. Number of forage species would need to be kept constant over a set period of time (x amount per day, etc) to reduce deviations associated with fish gorging themselves after a period of fasting, or conversely not eating "as much" due to an overabundance of prey items.
What would be interesting is to see the lipid content fish exhibit in riverine and lacustrine environments over a given season and how added current affects these levels. Unfortunately, you would (to the best of my knowledge, not sure there's any other way) have to sacrifice the fish to obtain these samples.
It amazes me how small fish brains are, yet how complex their life history actually is!!!!
Posted 6/8/2007 5:51 AM (#259970 - in reply to #257371) Subject: RE: River Muskie Habitat
Location: Green Bay, WI
You could also sample glycogen levels, insulin levels and even Growth Hormone...
There's a whole lot of things you could do, in a *theoretically* ideal situation. Of course no one would ever pay for it, lol.
"#*^@ muskies are eating all of our Walleyes!" (If I had a dollar for each time I've heard THAT!)
But it's a neat idea, to be sure. I had thought only of testing the hypothesis that lacustrine fish undergo both learned and physiological changes soon after being placed in a riverine system, but your idea of the converse would be just as interesting of course. And it really opens up a whole new arm in the research--whatever the changes seen in the lacustrine-->riverine fish; they should be basically the opposite of those seen in the riverine-->lacustrine arm. Then you could test the lacustrine-->riverine-->lacustrine fish, just to see if they returned to baseline!
So all we need is a couple hundred grand and a couple of ambitious graduate students...oh, and the support of a certain "fisheries team leader" who shall remain nameless.
Posted 6/8/2007 5:09 PM (#260078 - in reply to #257371) Subject: Re: River Muskie Habitat
Posts: 83
I am a little over my head here. It's ok, got air in the tank! We have a two fold fishery here. The Niagara and the Buffalo harbor. The assumption was that fish migrated between the two. A Multi year tagging study by the Niagara Musky assoc. found evidence to the contrary. The lacustrine fish were recaptured in the harbor or lake, and the Niagara fish were always captured in the River. The prime areas of both fisheries ( when we had prime fishing!) are located a scant five miles apart. The only thing that comes close to a natural barrier is a two mile section of fast water.
I had the pleasure of talking to Kevin Kapusinski the other evening. Kevin is a Biologist working on a Muskellunge project in New York state. He has asked our anglers for fin clippings for a DNA study. It will be interesting to see how similar the genetics are between the two populations. I am certain a lot of other interesting information will be learned as well.
I would think the hunting and feeding styles of the two populations would be far different, and both would struggle if they had to walk in each others shoes....er... swim....in their fins.
Remember; Niagara Muskies who roam too much are headed for BIG FALLS!!! Jim
Posted 6/8/2007 8:41 PM (#260087 - in reply to #257371) Subject: RE: River Muskie Habitat
Location: Green Bay, WI
Jim,
I have long believed this--river muskies do best in rivers, and lake muskies do best in lakes. Can they each survive in the other's environment...? Certainly. But I my theory is that they prefer to spend most of their time doing what they do best. But that doesn't explain the "where do they come from, initially?" question. If there is limited spawning habitat in the river for example, how are the stocks replenished except from the lacustrine fish (or stocking)? All interesting stuff.
A year ago I moved back to Wisconsin from Florida, and ended up in Green Bay--though I didn't get here in time to meet Kevin before he left for New York. Our loss is your gain from what everyone here tells me. Maybe he will feel the strings of Green Bay pulling him back when the ink starts to dry on his PhD, lol...
TB
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Hard to put on the smiley face when you come to the realization that it borders on fascism. 
RUM and the MUSKIE is king of his realm! IT'S ALL GOOD! Its why I hang around with fish instead of people that are politically motivated
