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| Was thinking last night while reading about a muskie's lateral line.....when is too much rattle, too much noise on a topwater, too much thump from a blade on hair just too much? This is taking color out of the equation....but when is too much noise or message to the fish's lateral line more of a turn off than it is an attractor. Let's be honest, if a muskie can detect a swimming fish at 50ft....a dual prop topwater has to sound like 30 raccoons in a big garbage can. With the success that so many people have seen from the bull dawg in the last few years (even in dirty water) and with jigs being an effective presentation....aren't these types of baits showing that there is something more than rattles and wobbles and general "noise in the water" that is attracting fish?
Slamr |
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| NO ONE has a reply to this??? Even JLong and MuskieIllini???? You guys in ERC always have some theories don't you???
Slamr |
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| Slamr
The lateral line detects low frequency pulsation created by water distortion. Bulldawgs + Jigs create water distortion don’t they? I see what you are asking though. When does a muskie like a signature of jig vs a Believer? That is a question that CAN probably be answered some day! Some say that slowing it down, quitting it down, sizing it down etc... when muskies arnt active is a key to triggering activity.. they could be right. I say, that is when you should turn it up a notch or 10 and that you can NEVER have enough lateral line stimuli (or at least it is not possible with the lures available on the market today).
I would think that Doug Johnson or Dick Pearson would probably be the ones to ask this question to. Not me. Give me another 20 to 30 years and I will have changed my mind about 2 or 3 times on this subject (maybe). In the last year I have changed it twice!?!?!?!?!
Esox Research does have a lot of info on this subject under its research links page. Also Jason Long has a great article called "DISTANT TOUCH" (can be found in MUSKY HUNTER (nov??)or on the ERC website under interpretations) that, in my mind, IS A MUST READ.
You are on the right track bro. The thinkin man will prevail.
MUSKY ILLINI
"Some times scrambled, sometimes runny, comes from a chicken, not a bunny"
P.S. Rattles/hearing is a whole different subject.
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| Slamr, this is a great question..... and one I WISH I had the answer to. I'm sure the lack of responses is because it is an extremely challenging topic that NOONE fully understands.... thus not many are confident enough or crazy enough to take a stab at it.
I won't speak for all of ERC..... but I always can dream up a THEORY (and in some cases a BS story). In many cases that theory is not very credible... but I can make it SOUND good (ha ha). So, I could reply to your question simply to reply.... or I could answer your question with more questions.
I've been listening intently to the speed trollers in an attempt to better understand this subject. In fact, I picked the brain of Todd Young (Dale Wiley's PMTT Partner) down at last year's Fox Chain event in the tavern saturday night of the tourney (unfortunately too much Seagram's that night has made me forget most of the conversation)[:halo:] . However, I can tell you that Todd mentioned the lateral line repeatedly. Does he know something we don't?
At any rate, what I'd like to know is why will a musky strike a jointed crankbait cruising along at 8 MPH rather than turn tail and flee (I'm sure some do, but we have know way of knowing)? I know I'd be dodging the silver bullet... not trying to catch it in my teeth. I believe its gotta be some sort of REACTION or INSTINCTIVE strike response. However, then why doesn't this work 100% of the time??????
That is the million dollar question. If we can answer it, muskies will no longer be a challenge to catch. Is that what we really want? Solve the mystery, and the mystique will no longer exist. I'm not ready for that yet[:bigsmile:]
Keep thinking. I don't think we have to worry about unlocking the almighty secret of the muskellunge any time soon.... which is a good thing. The odds will always be in favor of the musky... but it can't hurt to keep trying to level the playing field just a little.
Sorry I couldn't answer your question SLAMR... but hopefully I entertained you for a few minutes [:p] |
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| Wish I could help but can only "theorize"...My uneducated guess is that the louder noise will NOT play a major factor in scaring the fish, in this case a musky. An old bayou trick was to beat the stuffings out of the h2o surface w/ a wooden paddle then start catching sac de lait(crappie) out the yang...surface feeding rockfish make one heck of a racket that can be heard a long way off, yet a trolling motor on 1 can put them down, as will suddenly turning the trolling motor on...I had a very nice musky turn away last yr. from that very mistake...fish are used to hearing loud splashes + I think they are even more used to a loud splash then pause, much like the sounds feeding fish make. Perhaps shallow clear water would be more detrimental to a louder/larger bait; in fact if the bank is fairly clean we pitch the bait on shore + ease it into water resulting in more strikes...if the bait is large you can reel slower making less noise. I think the higher pitch sounds could be a factor but have found that sudden movements, clanking sounds in the boat + turning the trolling motor on suddenly to be the biggest problem I have encountered. Again this stuff is from personal experience + mainly from a multi species point of view! [:sun:] |
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| On LOTW a few years ago, my brother-in-law had a 50"+ fish follow lazily to the boat on a 10" suick..after figure-8ing a few times, the fish slowly sank out of sight. After lifting the lure from the water and he was told by the guide to smack the water with the lure as hard as he could. After looking at the guide with a puzzled look on his face, he smacked the water and to our surprise, the fish raised to the surface and followed the suick in another figure-8. The fish never did strike. |
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| If steve w. is right and the musky is not caoable of thinking as we do it muts be instinct. I nose I wonder attracts which, the inactive fish to strike or the one with the feed bag on. If the the later of the two would he he have hit anyway? If the inactive fish hits it must be triggering something. Who knows, as steve says why do they hit baits that look like nothing we know they eat. Why should should something with sounds like nothing they eat trigger them. Curiousity got the cat>>>> does it get the musky to????
Don Pfeiffer |
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Posts: 507
| archival renewal....any thoughts?
I do like how this thread is SO OLD, that the avatars are gone, personal info, etc. |
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Posts: 2058
| Good subject!!! You have three guys in the boat - I like the guy in front to throw an aggressive presentation - burn bucktail, loud topwater ect., second guy is throw a 10" jake, believer, third guy is just throwin a Jmac and reelin it in (not working a different part of the water column this is all visable structure) Guy in the back 3.. .....2 guys in front 0
This was a day on LOTW this summer pounding shorelines - some days you can over stimulate the lateral line (IMHO) - I would love to hear more on this guys!
Justin |
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| I remember this post as I finally recognized me response. After reviewing the post 4 yrs to the day later, I can see clearly now the answer, and Don Pfeiffer answered it for us; his final post thought of "curiosity got the cat>>>>did it get the musky too?" brings sobering closure. Though you ultra purists out there may disagree, it seems apparent that musky are a major branch on the catfish family tree, as displayed in their propensity toward curious behavior, thus solving a simple yet perplexing mystery as to their abnormal behavior. Perhaps the genus "Camusky" would have been a more appropriate name, but now is not the time to delve into the history of mistaken identity. Often times archeological expeditions turn out to be fruitless endeavors for the curious in nature, but in the case of this ancient post, continued digging and sifting will no doubt produce an artifact worthy of the Muskie First Museum of Natural Curiosity, allowing peeps of all sizes and ages to expand their minds through personal study and diligence, thus creating skills to be used and passed on to future seekers of the unexplainable... |
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Posts: 1916
Location: Greenfield, WI | Sponge, you are starting to scare me because I'm starting to think that your posts are making sense!?
It's great to have you back on the website! |
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Posts: 141
| Good question, the answer is most definatley yes you can do too much. Subtle presentations should not be ignored, fish become conditioned to lures of a certain type and being different is a vital key to success, I dont like rattles they have been done to death and can actually put fish off, try slowing things right down you will be amazed. |
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| Having spent the better part of 11.7 hrs. carefully studying the above reply of esoxmenasha, I see yet another aspect to the original question of "Have we done too much?" To the casual observer, the inability to visually see his response might cause a peep to cast aside the wealth of info found w/in its content; at first even I struggled to piece together the unwritten wording...cyber White Out...snow zooming in from an open window maybe? As I gazed into the screen one last time, I began to barely see what I could not see before...both answers and additional questions began to slowly filter through, revealing first and foremost the fact that "ESOXMENASHA" is actually an ancient Indian name given to the CAMUSKIFISH". Further study revealed that as individual fish began to develop certain tastes and habits over generations, they eventually evolved into 2 seperate catagories of feesh; related yes, but also in stark contrast visually and in habit, allowing us to angle for essentially the same fish, yet altogether different; go figure! The answer to every question w/in brought yet another question, and as of the present, I have yet to piece the puzzle together; perhaps we have "done too little?" At any rate, the question has yet to be answered, but perhaps if others will take an hour or so and and stare at the screen, they too will see what I have seen, and perhaps find info that will enable peeps to better determine the use of noisy baits... |
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Posts: 32921
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | One of the most effective lures out there, the jointed Believer, is SO NOISY it hurts my ears.
Sponger, your musings and claims can be summed up in the simple statement I heard many years back from a wise Northwoods Muskie Guide. We were discussing this very subject while sitting around late one night talking muskies and spitting into the campfire (us folks from the woods do that alot, we like to hear it sizzle) and he simply said, " Muskies ARE a different sort of Cat." |
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| Glad you saw that Stever; the post that esoxmenasha posted last night suddenly vanished this morning, leading me to ALMOST question me own faculties!  Anyhoos, spitting is a way of life here; on a camp fire, on a neighbors cat, but most often off the porch as the sun goes down while we discuss life's hits/misses...Funny how you'll see adults telling kids not to throw rocks in the h2o as it will scare the fish, while some of us are out there beatin' the water w/ a paddle, or ripping loud baits across the surface, knowing full well the possibilities our efforts may bring forth. I never could figure out the odds of a rock actually hitting a fish in a large body of water; pretty slim I'd imagine, and how far would it swim away if you did get close? Having watched surface feeding frenzies over the years, I'd say that LOUD followed by PAUSE in deeper h2o is beneficial, and that a bait allowed to flutter below or pulled under a bait pod will often times produce larger quarry. Have also had success slinging out a bait, letting it sit there and popping the rod w/ me free hand to give vibration... |
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| Sorry about the blank response. I pushed the wrong button. It happens. I meant to say that i don't think that we can do too much. How many times has a muskie hit the short line while trolling? The motor is running and it doesn't seem to bother them.
Sponge, you are awfully close in your response to the truth. You need to meditate a little more and search your soul. Perhaps the moon was in the wrong phase while you were thinking. Wait until mars is in the fourth house and it will all be clear. |
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Posts: 58
Location: Edina, MN | I've seen muskies hit the trolling motor blade, follow the prop on the gas motor, hit a bait when I'm slamming weeds off on the surface (a mag bulldawg that sounded like a beaver slap). When they are active, they are the top of the food chain and seem attracted to the noise. On other days they swim away from the most carefully cast jig. And that is what keeps me coming back. When I'm smart enough to figure these critters out, I'll quit chasing them. |
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