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Posts: 2089
| Doctors have bedside manner and Muskie fishermen/women have "boatside manner".Several years ago, I committed a season to really concentrating and focusing on my boatside manner.Some of the old In-Fisherman shows,videos and magazines were the catalyst and foundation.I caught more fish and some bigger fish. No big surprise.I recall Joe Bucher talking about the "Blind 8" .This works also,but only under certain situations and circumstances.If after raising fish that won't eat or show themselves at the "spot on the spot"(sorry Slamr)I may figure 8 the spot for a few to several minutes. It works.From Windels and Pearson I learned about depth change WITH direction change.Big fish need a circle or around the boat approach.Small corners make 'em bolt.There's been a lot of discussion over the years. What do you guys think? What do you do?Funny thing... I still lose fish at boatside , even when things have gone seemingly perfect. I guess that's why we fish muskies. Steve |
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Posts: 391
| I like dropping to one knee. Going from a low profile as it is to super low profile,lol. I think it enables me to get under the boat a bit better and not have so much interference with the rod rubbing the side of the boat, better angles. From there I just try to make things smooth and wide. I only had 1 figure 8 fish though in 2003 and it was in the first L, so who knows.
Kly
going to be rusty need to get out soon, Greg pray for open water!!!! |
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| Research and experience continues to show us that we miss 40% of fish because we don't figure 8. I at least do a J every cast and I do a full figure 8 in dark or stained waters.
The fish I have caught on the figure 8 have all been with depth changes (mostly), and direction changes if that doesn't work.
I then throw back a bull dawg or tiger tube if that doesn't work.
Steve |
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Posts: 440
| To 8 or not to 8 what a silly question. LOL. I spent most of last year trying to get the 8 down to a smooth science and I have a long way to go. The long rods make things easier. From what I could see the smoother the rod goes in the water and the smoother you make the corners the more likely you are to hook up. The heavy surges seem to send fish flying off. The depth changes seem to help keep the fish around. I do not blind figure 8 unless I feel I was not paying enough attention to the lure as it came to the boat. I will always make the L turn, sometimes it turns into more of a J.
Let me tell you a little story about KLY and his figure 8 tactics. It's December 7th and a little chilly. I am on the trolling motor, the Lone Stone is on the deck behind me and Kly is in the back of the boat. We are casting a deep flat that was loaded up with baitfish. I am working along, BS'ing about something and just happen to look back and here is KLY up to his knuckles in the water doing his figure 8. I say, "hey what you doing" KLY; "I had a follow" me; " do you need me to stop the boat?" KLY; "if she wants it she will come get it". I turned around and kept casting. I have no idea how long he was back there working on that fish, he didn't make a sound, there was not a "oh, theres one" or a "incoming". He was awefull sneaky about the whole thing. LOL. The guy has a lot of composure. Everyone in 200 yrds radius hears about my follows. |
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Posts: 1335
Location: Chicago, Beverly | I figure 8 after every cast, no j's, no l's. Full 8's(or circles) fish or no fish. I think my boat had something like 60 or more fish last year actually follow the bait through figure 8's between my brother and I, I had one that went round and round like ten times before swimming off.. Caught him a couple casts later on a 8. I had multiple fish just magically appear after doing a couple 8's, when no visible fish followed, usually they came from under the boat as if they came from a different direction then I had casted to. Of those fish a J or L would not have brought them out. I would say a solid third of the fish I have caught were on 8's. |
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Posts: 7119
Location: Northwest Chicago Burbs | "spot on the spot".....whatever Jonesi.
I think most anglers are missing out if they don't do a figure 8 or a circle at boat side. Personally, I do AT LEAST a J turn at the boat on each cast. But, I personally also don't fish much stained water, meaning that on most of the waters I fish, if there is a fish following, I can see him by the time I get done with the J-turn. BUT the darker the water, or the harder it is to see into the water because of conditions, the bigger and more pronounced my circle gets.
Also, I ONLY do circles, because I have blown, and seen others blow fish trying to do the tighter turns it takes to do an 8 versus a smoother rounding of the turn on the circle.
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Posts: 906
Location: Warroad, Mn | Here's my thinking about blind figure-8s and it's maybe a little different from the popular norm. First I suspect that there is differances in success rates on different bodies of water. From what I can tell if a body of water is heavily fished it seems to be more likely to produce when blind figure-8ing. I suspect this is because a lot of the fish are pulled away from the areas that people are casting and are postitioned in the water farther out from shore. Another factor could be that the main forage base is somewhat suspended, and most of the fish are again father from shore, near the boat. Under these situations an extended figure-8 may well be successful, and the fish will indeed come from under the boat. However, my experience on the LOTWs and other Ontario waters is that blind figure-8s are conterproductive. I catch many fish each year on figure-8's. Must have had my best year ever last year for fish on figure-8s, probably in the 25-30 fish range. Lots of excitment! However, I have never caught a fish on a blind figure-8 in 40 year of fishing. As a guide I spend lots of time on the water with lots of different fishermen. In 30 years of guiding on the LOTWs I have never had anyone ever catch a fish on a blind figure-8!. Sort of tell me something! I've had lots of people who do it every cast, but no-one has ever caught a fish! Yet we've caught 100's of fish on figure-8s on fish that we see following. To me the best thing that you can do is to do a long "L" at the boat. This allows the fish to catch up and show itself if it's back there. My experience with fish that are "deep" followers is that they basically aren't catchable anyway, so why waste the time. Blind figure-8s seem to be time wasters, why stir the water at the boat, when you can be casting to another spot. I've had the oppurtunity to fish with many of the best know muskie fishermen (Dick Pearson, Mark Windels, Jack Burns, Doug Stange, Marv Kiley, Pete Maina, Chad Cain, Crash Mullins, Greg Thomas, and many more great fishermen) and there's not a one of them who does a full figure-8 after every cast, regardless what they write or talk about in their seminars. However, we all do an "L" and look to see if there is anything back there. Mark Windels and Jack Burns are about the best there are on figure-8s, I do O.K. also. Here's what I do, and it's about the same as the rest of these guys do. First of all I don't think there's anyone who tries to go deeper with their figure-8's. I really don't know who came up with this idea! Again this may be different on different lakes, but I try to keep the lure at the same depth rather than going deeper. When you suddenly do deeper, the fish seem to lose sight of the bait and just swim off. Their eyes are on the top of their head not the bottom! If anything coming closer to the surface seems to work better, than going deeper. Also any major body movement, bending over, kneeling down seems to be a bad thing, and spooks the fish. It helps to have long rods as you can make longer moves. I like to make figure-8 rather than circles, because it's easier to make speed changes, althought you need to be careful in the corners, but both work. What seems to be best on a figure-8 is to go fast in the straight-aways and then slow down in the corners. The fish will chase when you are going fast, and then the slow down in the corner this seems to make them bite. You can kind of feed it to them on the corners. There are many that will hit in the straight away as well. Mark Windels says that you should never lose sight of the fish so you can see what it's doing, and I agree! I can't tell you the number of fish I've caught doing this, including a number of 50"+ fish. Figure-8s are a great tool, but they aren't the total answer, you still need to fish where the fish live. Doug Johnson
Edited by dougj 1/30/2004 9:44 PM
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Posts: 148
Location: DES MOINES, IOWA | Doug, we fish exclusively in Sabaskong, and we L every cast.We only 8 on follows, or in hot areas where we have been seeing or hooking fish.We use to 8 on every cast, but got away from it, because we weren,t picking up fish doing it.However, being it is Sabaskong should we figure 8 every cast or not? |
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | To add to Doug's excellent commentary,here's the actual mechainics behind the 8 with all the fun stuff removed.
1) How fast do you reel? Let's say you are working a bucktail or spinnerbiat. You are reeling about 4 to 5 MPH most of the time or slower. A muskie is capable of speeds in the mid-thirties, so you CANNOT take a lure away form a fish on attack if it wants it.
2) How long is the lure in the water? With the lures described, about 30 to 45 seconds.
3) How does a Muskie 'find' your lure? The bait hits the water, and sound and vibration move out from the impact point at 16 football fields per second. Those and associated stimuli strike the muskie, and if all is well, the fish turns toward your presentation. How? The sound/vibration/pressurewave/whatever move out from the bait in a 360 degree circle to near infinity. As the leading edge of the that 'globe' strikes the fish, it will instinctively turn to that direction, just like you would in our environmemt. Another instictive mechanism 'decides' whether the bait is close enough for the fish to pursue without burning more energy that the capture would be worth. Assuming that and other reactions to your stimulous are positive, the fish kicks toward your lure. The speed at which this happens has more variables atached to it than are of import, suffice to say the level of response to the stimulous IS variable.
4) The fish moves to intersect the lure and tries to visually locate the bait. In many waters, visibility is less than 5'. The Muskie, by virtue of poor visibility in the water and the fact they are pretty badly nearsighted has to get pretty close to get the visual stimulous, and the lure needs to have good enough contrast to allow the fish to seperate it from the background. If indeed this clicks and the overall response is strong enough, then the fish takes an attack vector, and moves in for the kill. If the fish can't find the lure visually, or isn't in a physical 'state' for optimal response to the stimuli, you get a follow.
All of this has to happen in about 30 to 45 seconds.
The figure 8 accomplishes two things. It keeps the lure in the water longer, allowing a fish that is on it's way from a half cast away to get there. Another function has to do with the Muskie's vision.
Muskies don't see as we do. The position of their eyes is totally different. We are primary predators, like it or not. Our eyes are positioned in the front. As a result, we see in 'stereo' out to the very side or perepiheral vision. The Muskie's eyes are positioned top and out to the sides, so the stereo vision in limited to a set of opposing triangles. The field of vision favors upward and directly forward, causing the fish to have to position itself corectly to the presentation to get the bait on the vision 'screen'. Imagine drawing a line from the fish's eyes from the top of the fish (see atachment) across the nose. Where those lines intersect the Muskie BEGINS to see the lure with good depth perception. Any closer, the fish may not see it at all, and gets no visual stimulous. Outside the triangle, the fish sees as you would with one eye closed. Try figuruing out distance to an object with one eye covered, while it is moving at 4 MPH and you are moving too.
The figure 8 moves the lure away from and across the stereoscopic field of vision 4 times, out on the outer circles, and in the inner circles of the 8. If the fish is glued RIGHT on the bait, one needs to get it a bit more out in front, and cross the visual field. If, again, the response is strong enough, you will get the desired hit.
If not, you get a follow, and the fish moves on.
Do I figure 8 every cast? No. I am way too impatient. I look WAY behind the bait looking for a change in the water color or movement, and figure 8 if I think a fish is on it's way. If I get a follow, I figure 8. Otherwise, I do a very long L. I can't help myself. Casting again just makes me feel so good!!
My 2 cents!
By the way, the bigger the fish, the bigger the triangles described. The fish I used was a 42" pike.
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Posts: 906
Location: Warroad, Mn | Jay: Sounds like you answered your own question. You say that you used to do blind figure-8s, but quit because you weren't catching any fish. Why would you want to do something that doesn't seem to work? To me the time is better spent casting to a new spot. The water color in Sabaskong is very simular to the water color in the Angle. I don't do blind figure-8s, but catch many fish each year on fish that are following. You need to pay lots of attention to your lure, and have a good pair of polorized glasses. Doug Johnson |
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Posts: 1335
Location: Chicago, Beverly | If I am following you guys right a "Blind 8" is doing one every cast fish or no fish, right? About 1/3 of my figure 8 fish came on blind 8's then, where no fish was present when the 8 was started. Some have been on lakes with a solid 5'-8' water clearity, others were on stained water where I may not have been able to see the fish, either way a fish appeared where there was none only after starting the 8. I have fished with guides and other fisherman who have questioned why I do a 8 after every cast if I don't see a fish. My answer is always the same, a third of my fish have come off of figure 8's, with my second largest fish coming from a fish that appeared after I did 3 8's and was pulling my bait from the water..I put the bait back in, started figure 8'ing again and caught her. |
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Posts: 391
| I have a scientific type thought on the fig-8s and was wondering what you guys think.
Have you ever noticed in a fish tank or scuba diving or what not when a fish is on it's last leg(fin) it will start to swim in a circular motion. Almost unable to get it's equilibrium to swim straight.
Do you feel this is a possible triggering effect on the fish? Recreating this with your lures which in turn draws a reactionary strike? Possible answer why fish might come out of no where on a blind figure 8?
Just a thought
Kly |
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Posts: 172
Location: Chagrin Falls, Ohio | I had quite a few fish on the 8 this year, more than any other. Some of them in rather odd circumstances. I had a 42" this year that hit a Grandma that was laying on the surface after I was done with my 2nd figure 8 inside a mudline. I started talking to my partner and the fish almost took the rod out of my hands. We had another close to 40 that came from the other side of the boat and hit on the first turn, driving off a smaller fish that was hot and following close. I've never seen that before. I think I'll be paying closer attention next year to doing a solid 8 on every cast and not get lazy. |
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | My observation has been that injured minnows put in the tank will be in there dead tomorrow. Nothing seems a bit interested in the erratic swimming injured shiners. The fish I have actually ignore them completely, going for the schooled healthy ones. No idea why. |
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Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | I do not figure 8 at all when casting for muskies. Fishing 8-12 hours a day 3-6 days per week is hard enough without the added useless behavior at the end of each cast. I do l turn at the end, and my l turns are often better than many of the figure 8's I see guys doing during my travels. That said, about 8-10 fish a year come on the figure 8 for me. i 8 if i even think i saw a flash. i 8 when there is a definate follow. I 8 right at prime time right at the prime spot when I get the feeling I need to(it pays off now and again). But blind figure 8ing is an overall overrated endeavor for the most part. I quit doing it about 7 years ago(before that I did it after every cast like the 'book' says to). I am reassured that i have caught more and bigger fish by making more casts to productive spots over the past 7 years than by extending an already fruitless cast for another fruitless 5-8 seconds. I fish a river system that is very dark and there are days during the summer that the visibility is zero. Some of these days I figure 8 more than normal, but even then I tend not to. That L turn done right is better than an 8 in my opinion anyhow. You must L properly though as it is an art just as the 8 is. The L often shows the fish, then I can go into the 8. Good luck in 04 dudes! |
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Posts: 148
Location: DES MOINES, IOWA | Doug, you definitely gave me some peace of mind.Haven,t been sure my sons, and I made the right decision to stop doing blind 8,s, because of the water clarity at Sabaskong.We did it to cover more water, and because of poor results, but with a lot of people supporting blind 8,s, I was starting to question my decision.Thanks for the feedback. |
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Posts: 2089
| This is exactly why I posted this topic . Great discussion!!!To get feedback from the best in the business is awesome. thanks to all, especially Steve and Doug.Keep teachin' man!This is why MuskieFirst is the best muskie site on the web. Steve |
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Posts: 391
| Hi,
I am interested in what everyones approach is to deep water fish that are following? If you have a fish that is down say 2 feet below your bait which is 8 feet down over at least 25ft of water, how do you approach this scenario? I have noticed getting down to where the fish is following at and staying just above them seems to work. Work meaning about 25% of the time. What do you prefer to do, try to bring the fish up, use a pitch back bait that will get down(i.e. Jig), or work the fish deep?
kly |
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Posts: 2089
| If I can see a fish down there, the first thing I'm going to do is a "rip" up to the boat.In this scenario, I'd be throwing a DDD or a 'Dawg. The rip manuever has been talked about before, but yet another example of "boatside manner".Speed is the obvious trigger, but the change of direction is also a strong trigger. And if the fish STILL doesn't bite?Jump up and down like a maniac or provide an offering to the Muskie Gods!!!!Is it spring yet?? Steve |
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | This fall I received a Wabull, and that changed everything with deep boatside fish. On that particular bait, if I have a fish following I don't do an 8 at all. I just make the bait 'jump' a couple feet up, then tap it down again while pulling it a bit forward. Slamr can attest to what the Muskies do when it stops on that downward tap; pretty cool to watch right at boatside. |
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Posts: 32958
Location: Rhinelander, Wisconsin | dougj,
Do you have a Wabull yet? Email me, I have something for you! Thanks for the information on the 8's, confirms my feelings for a very long time. |
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Posts: 622
Location: Seymour, WI | I had a lot of trouble getting fish to go into the 8 this yr. I raised several nice fish on clear water lakes that just turned away at the boat without going into the 8. I'm making the biggest, smothest 8's and circles that I can, but the fish are still not taking. Any hints to get them to keep following into the 8?
Grass, |
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Posts: 2089
| Grass,
Sometimes there's nothing you can do.Ever fished Rowan?Lake is nuts with fish like that.With fish like that, or on real clear systems, I try some sort of trigger (or more of them) during my retrieve. I know some guys that catch fish like these with an effective use of SPEED!!!Smaller bladed bucktails like tandem Mepps Musky Killers help accomplish this w/o killing oneself.Don't give 'em a chance to eyeball the offering. Reaction strikes. Some of these smaller bucktails will need some weight added. Some clip on bell sinkers work in a pinch, but I prefer to split ring mine.(make sure it doesn't interfere with the hook gap though)Another technique to try during the retrieve is change of direction. Easily accomplished with a long rod chucking bucktails, spinnerbaits and topwater.Sometimes I may "zig/zag" all the way back to the boat.Funny, boatside manner doesn't mean much when we can't get 'em to the boatside!Will somebody tell these fish to read the rulebook!!!!Just want to kiss'em and put 'em back anyway. Steve |
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Posts: 3518
Location: north central wisconsin | Stevej, great reply. Grass, sometimes as mentioned there is nothing you can do, and that is more often than not. Often then, a throwback lure already rigged is key. Get that thing out there before the fish gets back to where it came from or leaves, and twitch it! I really like a small crane bait, or a fast moving small bucktail(if the fish already followed something twitched). Doesn't always work, but turns enough into biters to keep an extra couple rods rigged cluttering my boat. |
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Posts: 1906
Location: Oconto Falls, WI | I also don't do a full figure 8 unless I suspect there is a fish there. 85% of the time I am fishing water that is pretty darn clear, so I usually see the fish coming. Perhaps I am a do a bad figure 8, but those clear water fish are tough to convert. Like SteveJ said, convert thos fish before they come to the boat. You'll have cleaner underwear that way too! Being I fish crankbaits a ton, I also do what SteveJ said at the boatside. Rip the bait up, and this is when the fish gulp it. You may end up with an eye to eye encounter when a fish comes out of 20' of water to hit a bait at the surface! If the rip shows a fish, but they don't take let the bait sit for a few seconds. This works best with suspending or slow risers. If they still don't take, I then proceed to the eight. |
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